431 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Alocormin wrote...

Yeah... more toys. Interesting stuff. Not having to choose between augments.

Before ME1 came out I was hoping for something more like Deus Ex. I was slightly disappointed with how that worked out.

I got used to ME1's gameplay, of course, and its flaws.  ME2 sold me on the trilogy's gameplay style, despite changing so much that seemingly didn't fundamentally need changing.

I think tearing out the RPG mechanics helped Bioware head in the right direction.  Maybe they could've made it better with more testing and a lot more refinement and input.  It leaves me hopeful about ME3 anyway.

Agreed, all around. ME1 was too clunky for my tastes. I fully understand when some fans say that ME2's RPG elements were stripped down, at least with regards to skills/ranks. However, ME2 was also a more solid foundation on which to build the game. Mass Effect 3 is already looking to be the best of both worlds by increasing the number of skills/upgrades with fluid combat, to top it off. .

[TuringPoint]

See, now we're talking 'objectively.' This must be why we agree

[Il Divo]

Of course. I'm suprised it took this long for us to try out objectivity.  It's highly under-rated, objectively speaking.

[MajesticJazz]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

JayhartRIC wrote...



Exactly.  If you like DE:HR's execution of certain things better that is a valid opinion.  However, ME2 definitely has all the same elements.

I'm sorry but your statement is false. Mass Effect does not have all the same elements as DX. It doesn't have exploration or multiple ways to approach a mission. The levels and hub worlds are all linear. For DXHR, the "hub" cities are huge and have lots of exploration and verticality. Missions have different routes that the player can shoose, so it isn't a linear shooting gallery like Mass Effect. Deus Ex HR has a proper loot system, not a dumbed down armor or weapons locker because people found it too hard to go through an organized inventory. :innocent:Deus Ex HR also has a strong story with real consequences to your choices, both of which Mass Effect 2 lacks significantly. ME gives you the illusion that you're making a choice when in reality you are not. The story was also weak compared to the first game. These are all facts which cannot be disputed. In light of that, your statement is wrong. You cannot say that ME2 has all of the same elements of DXHR.

-Polite

+1

On a side note, DE:HR sold over 600K units in it's first week! See, you can have a game that doesn't shy away from deep RPG elements and STILL sell well.

Bioware 1998-2007
R.I.P.

Modifié par MajesticJazz, 03 septembre 2011 - 06:05 .

[Bostur]

didymos1120 wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

1. Bioware IS trying to move away from RPG elements and they are very vocal about it. Just look at this image taken from Bioware lecture at GDC 2010 regarding the development of ME2

Now post the image where it says they turned them back on.  For the interested, here's the entire presentation:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

Turning RPG off and then on, was probably the biggest mistake of ME2. The game feels very much like they designed the shooter part to work on it's own. Adding RPG elements to the streamlined shooter experience feels bolted on. The RPG mechanics are simply not needed, and it shows.

DE:HR seemed to have a clear idea on how the RPG elements were supposed to integrate with the real time game.

This mistake is one that Bioware seems to keep doing. BW games has some oversaturation of skills and stats without making sure that they are needed. RPG experience and RPG flavour can not be sprinkled on top, its an integral part of the structure of the game.

Modifié par Bostur, 04 septembre 2011 - 08:25 .

[LGTX]

Deus Ex: Human Revolution works just as well through its standalone shooter features. I'd say it compares to other FPS mechanics in the exact same fashion as ME2's shooting compared to TPS ones.

ME2 didn't aim for RPG or shooting, and that's why it worked. No genre limitations. Deus Ex is a Frankenstein of game design, polar mechanics stitched together with enough effort to make them work seamlessly. Devs didn't have much choice either. Gotta pay homage to a classic eleven years old, means you have to adhere to some of those ancient methods.

What you're addressing, or the gist of it, is basically a lack of motivation to use the various skills, correct? Well, in an on-rails game, that'd be a disaster; however, for many people, an abundance of choices is simply a nice background bonus in case they decide to replay/approach situations differently etc. I don't want to call it "RPG", but there you go. Same with HR.

You can shoot your way through ME2 and forget about skills. You can shoot your way through DX and forget about augs.

Modifié par LGTX, 04 septembre 2011 - 10:09 .

[Bostur]

LGTX wrote...

Deus Ex: Human Revolution works just as well through its standalone shooter features. I'd say it compares to other FPS mechanics in the exact same fashion as ME2's shooting compared to TPS ones.

ME2 didn't aim for RPG or shooting, and that's why it worked. No genre limitations. Deus Ex is a Frankenstein of game design, polar mechanics stitched together with enough effort to make them work seamlessly. Devs didn't have much choice either. Gotta pay homage to a classic eleven years old, means you have to adhere to some of those ancient methods.

What you're addressing, or the gist of it, is basically a lack of motivation to use the various skills, correct? Well, in an on-rails game, that'd be a disaster; however, for many people, an abundance of choices is simply a nice background bonus in case they decide to replay/approach situations differently etc. I don't want to call it "RPG", but there you go. Same with HR.

You can shoot your way through ME2 and forget about skills. You can shoot your way through DX and forget about augs.

I think you may be adressing my post, if not I apologize. You make a good argument so I feel the urge to elaborate.

In ME2 I feel powers compete with shooter gameplay, and I feel that powers compete with each other. It feels a bit like a palette of colours, I can choose the purple one if I'm in that mood, or maybe the yellow one. Whether I attack someone with singularity, pull or a few heavy pistol shots doesn't make that much of a difference.
I think what I am missing is for the options to feel more like a toolbox. To get the feeling that I have a good tool for a specific circumstance and some bad tools. Choosing the right tools at the spur of the moment is fun gameplay for me. As you say it merely feels like background bonus or flavour, not essentials. But I agree that having an abundance of flavours can be fun as well.

In DE:HR I feel that the powers supplement the core gameplay styles. They may not be strictly needed all the time, but they do help. Instead of being in direct competition with firing a rifle or sneaking past an enemy they make those actions more effective through indirect means.

I think ME2 was a very good game, based solely on it shooter mechanics and its story. But I think it would have worked just as good without any powers at all.

[littlezack]

MajesticJazz wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

JayhartRIC wrote...



Exactly.  If you like DE:HR's execution of certain things better that is a valid opinion.  However, ME2 definitely has all the same elements.

I'm sorry but your statement is false. Mass Effect does not have all the same elements as DX. It doesn't have exploration or multiple ways to approach a mission. The levels and hub worlds are all linear. For DXHR, the "hub" cities are huge and have lots of exploration and verticality. Missions have different routes that the player can shoose, so it isn't a linear shooting gallery like Mass Effect. Deus Ex HR has a proper loot system, not a dumbed down armor or weapons locker because people found it too hard to go through an organized inventory. :innocent:Deus Ex HR also has a strong story with real consequences to your choices, both of which Mass Effect 2 lacks significantly. ME gives you the illusion that you're making a choice when in reality you are not. The story was also weak compared to the first game. These are all facts which cannot be disputed. In light of that, your statement is wrong. You cannot say that ME2 has all of the same elements of DXHR.

-Polite

+1

On a side note, DE:HR sold over 600K units in it's first week! See, you can have a game that doesn't shy away from deep RPG elements and STILL sell well.

Too bad DX isn't a game with 'deep RPG elements'.

Really, I like DX, but it's not some hardcore RPG. Stop acting like it is.

[DieDjae]

Bostur wrote...

I think ME2 was a very good game, based solely on it shooter mechanics and its story. But I think it would have worked just as good without any powers at all.

One of the things I love about ME2 is the charge power, there's loads of other ppl that enjoy a single class more than other classes, so that's bs.

ME2 is straight combat game that allows u to approach that combat a few different ways through classes and their powers.

DE:HR pretends to be a game that let's u choose between combat and stealth that allows u to go through lvls in several ways, but really it leans heavily towards stealth.
It flat-out gives players a ****load more experience for stealth play than straight gunplay and when u do start shooting u really notice the ****ty AI and the fact that the difficulty only lies in enemies being able to take more bullets than you.

As for the augments there's a ****load of completely useless ones and u can get all the others in one playthrough.
All but four of them are passive, the silent running is useless compared to the cloak and typhoon is the very definition of "push a button and something awesome happens", that just leaves cloak and enhanced vision as 2 active powers that actually add something to gameplay.

DE:HR is fun for one playthrough but it doesn't have the replayability of ME2 because it's combat sucks and the stealth gameplay is pretty boring and not very challenging.

[eternalnightmare13]

I would like the next ME game after 3 to be way less linear. Not a sandbox, but allow the player to chose for example do I take the vents through this building to get to my objective, do I simply run and gun through the corridors, do I take the elevators/stairs, or do I take the fire escape up to the roof and work my way down, etc?

The linear nature of the missions in ME always annoyed me.

[Il Divo]

littlezack wrote...

Too bad DX isn't a game with 'deep RPG elements'.

Really, I like DX, but it's not some hardcore RPG. Stop acting like it is.

This. DX is pretty much the definition of a streamlined game. And I love it for that.

[LGTX]

Bostur wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Deus Ex: Human Revolution works just as well through its standalone shooter features. I'd say it compares to other FPS mechanics in the exact same fashion as ME2's shooting compared to TPS ones.

ME2 didn't aim for RPG or shooting, and that's why it worked. No genre limitations. Deus Ex is a Frankenstein of game design, polar mechanics stitched together with enough effort to make them work seamlessly. Devs didn't have much choice either. Gotta pay homage to a classic eleven years old, means you have to adhere to some of those ancient methods.

What you're addressing, or the gist of it, is basically a lack of motivation to use the various skills, correct? Well, in an on-rails game, that'd be a disaster; however, for many people, an abundance of choices is simply a nice background bonus in case they decide to replay/approach situations differently etc. I don't want to call it "RPG", but there you go. Same with HR.

You can shoot your way through ME2 and forget about skills. You can shoot your way through DX and forget about augs.

I think you may be adressing my post, if not I apologize. You make a good argument so I feel the urge to elaborate.

In ME2 I feel powers compete with shooter gameplay, and I feel that powers compete with each other. It feels a bit like a palette of colours, I can choose the purple one if I'm in that mood, or maybe the yellow one. Whether I attack someone with singularity, pull or a few heavy pistol shots doesn't make that much of a difference.
I think what I am missing is for the options to feel more like a toolbox. To get the feeling that I have a good tool for a specific circumstance and some bad tools. Choosing the right tools at the spur of the moment is fun gameplay for me. As you say it merely feels like background bonus or flavour, not essentials. But I agree that having an abundance of flavours can be fun as well.

In DE:HR I feel that the powers supplement the core gameplay styles. They may not be strictly needed all the time, but they do help. Instead of being in direct competition with firing a rifle or sneaking past an enemy they make those actions more effective through indirect means.

I think ME2 was a very good game, based solely on it shooter mechanics and its story. But I think it would have worked just as good without any powers at all.

Yeah I sometimes go bold and not quote a post directly above me, sorry. I was indeed addressing you.

And I think I'm grasping your point. Human Revolution has different pillars of gameplay which can be enhanced significantly by the augmentations, whereas Mass Effect is more of a direct game of chess where you play rock-paper-scissors in pretty much the same pattern all game along.

I can understand having problems with such an approach. I, however, don't have them.

[Dionkey]

 Personally, I thought Deus Ex: HR was worse than ME2 was. Too many broken mechanics and stupid elements. The upgrade system was not exciting in the least, the augmentations were spent for the most part on hacking (due to every character needing it), it forced you into boss fights where you couldn't make use of your stealth or non-lethal abilities and a useless lot of items made it feel quite dull to me. 

[habitat 67]

I like the level of maturity used in the subject matter. Nothing was Disneyfied.

[LOLZAO]

I liked the different paths you could take on each mission(stealth,hacking,run and gun) and i know Me3 will not have stealth and whatnot but at least Bioware should really try to make the levels less linear.

Another thing i like about Deus ex:HR was the ending(particularly 1 of them) and not going to spoil it for you,but i must say i shed man tears while watching it, and if Bioware makes Me3 ending better than the ones for DX i will consider Bioware as gods.

[DieDjae]

LOLZAO wrote...


Another thing i like about Deus ex:HR was the ending(particularly 1 of them) and not going to spoil it for you,but i must say i shed man tears while watching it, and if Bioware makes Me3 ending better than the ones for DX i will consider Bioware as gods.

Of all the stupid things ppl suggest Bioware adopt from DE so far, this has to be the worst one.

Those endings just screamed push for release to me, they were low-budget and cheesy.

Modifié par DieDjae, 04 septembre 2011 - 03:00 .

[Babli]

habitat 67 wrote...

I like the level of maturity used in the subject matter. Nothing was Disneyfied.

Pretty much this.

[Sideshow Jed]

MajesticJazz wrote...


+1

On a side note, DE:HR sold over 600K units in it's first week! See, you can have a game that doesn't shy away from deep RPG elements and STILL sell well.

Bioware 1998-2007
R.I.P.

What deep PRG elements?

[LGTX]

Role-playing as it is was much better integrated into ME2. Adam's character was pre-established and tampering with the dialogue options made his progression awkward and illogical. The most hilarious thing was how he'd fit his outlook around each and every decision you made at the end. Flexible morals, eh?

If we're talking about the more old perception of RPG, as in, skills/inventory/similar stuff, Deus Ex had it a bit more homagey. Understand as you wish. I prefer how ME handled that particular aspect.

[Aumata]

I am reading about some of the ideas that are very sound, but as some has said, Mass Effect needs to borrow from the Masters of squad base combat, though saying that you can't have an open environment that allows you to go about your own way in a squad base game is wrong, I am pretty sure their was the old ghost recon, and the old SOCOM did that also. Bioware would have to put in quest and have them affect each other depending on how you do them, and the order you do it.

[TuringPoint]

I like the idea of borrowing from tactical squad based games like Ghost Recon... though not carrying that 'too' far per se.

[Aumata]

Don't have to carry it out all the way but mass effect can really borrow from Dragon age wheel console wise, and what ever the way PC deals with issuing squad commands being deeper, and complex at the same time having open ended levels have choices that affect the outcome in not only a mission but the overall story. I thought about this a lot actually.

[Homebound]

how about the elements of:
Kindness
Generosity
Honesty
Laughter
Loyalty
and Magic?

[tywinsregards]

I'll take the dialogue options and the conversation bosses.Hacking was better and I also liked how there were so many different ways to approach each mission. On a somewhat similar note, I also hope they put the personality system from DA2 that stacked over time, it made conversations seem more fluid IMO and it would be nice if your class had more effect on dialogue and action sequences in the game.

Modifié par lgeass88, 05 septembre 2011 - 12:58 .

[bucyrus5000]