431 réponses à ce sujet

[clerkenwell]

Like others have said, I'm not sure too many DXHR game design elements would transfer cleanly to ME3, mostly because ME is a squad-based game. Still, a slightly more non-linear approach to level design would be great. I also like they're approach to character advancement where the focus isn't on levels but on abilities. Almost every point you can spend on augmentations has a direct effect on gameplay, either allowing you to do something completely new, or improve an ability in a way that is tangible and immediately noticeable. From what I've seen ME3 is getting better in this regard, with a focus on more dramatic and varied improvements for powers. Where it suffers in comparison to DXHR, I think, is that it's still a level-focused approach. From very early on in ME3, improving a power by a single rank will require gaining multiple levels, which results in a good deal of individual level-ups (more than half?) having little-to-no direct impact on your character. DXHR's approach is, IMO, a lot more compelling from a game design POV and a player POV.

A little off-topic, but another game I played recently was Star Wars: Republic Commando, which is an older (original X-Box) squad-based FPS, and it had some fun squad mechanics like ordering them to hack terminals, place explosives, or coordinate a door breach. That kind of stuff would be amazing in ME.

Back to DXHR, I've gotta say, I really loved the game. It's right up there with ME1 and ME2 as one of my favorite games of this generation. They got almost everything right, and I can't wait to see what they do next. I've gotta say, a new dream game of mine has been born: a game set in the ME universe with DXHR gameplay. Perhaps centered on the exploits of another, more stealthy/lone-wolf style Spectre at some point before the Shepard trilogy. That and Citadel Noire, YESPLEASE.

[Ultai]

LGTX wrote...

Back on topic, a great feature would be the 'social bossfights', like Saren from ME1, with or without the emotionality type gauge. We just need those encounters back, with the same or more emphasis that DX puts on them, in ME3.

True, hell in witcher 2 you could decide if you felt if it was worth it  to fight the last boss or not, and not just having a boss fight just for the sake of it.  *cough* da2 *cough*  That doesn't meant I don't like boss fights, but having the option for some of them is nice.

[Malanek]

Ultai wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Back on topic, a great feature would be the 'social bossfights', like Saren from ME1, with or without the emotionality type gauge. We just need those encounters back, with the same or more emphasis that DX puts on them, in ME3.

True, hell in witcher 2 you could decide if you felt if it was worth it  to fight the last boss or not, and not just having a boss fight just for the sake of it.  *cough* da2 *cough*  That doesn't meant I don't like boss fights, but having the option for some of them is nice.

The real last bossfight just before it was unavoidable. In DA2 you could choose whether or not to fight the Arishok (or the hidden bosses I guess), I'm struggling to see the difference.

[littlezack]

What do you mean by 'social bossfights'?

[KainrycKarr]

The music, the "boss" social conversations that you can have. I love that in DX, How a conversation goes depends more on the personality of who you are talking to, and thus how you talk to them, rather than whether or not you choose red or blue.

Everything else though....sorry to say, but ME is way too entrenched in it's style of gameplay for anything beyond that to translate very well.

Back to conversations though....DX is better in that as you talk to someone, the camera moves, the characters move around throughout the scene as though in a movie, rather than standing in the same spot for a ten minute conversation.

[KainrycKarr]

littlezack wrote...

What do you mean by 'social bossfights'?

In certain parts of the game, you'll have conversations with a important characters, and how those conversations go can be drastically different and have a major affect in gameplay, depending on how you talk to them.

[littlezack]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Back to conversations though....DX is better in that as you talk to someone, the camera moves, the characters move around throughout the scene as though in a movie, rather than standing in the same spot for a ten minute conversation.

ME2 does the same thing.

And I just got through beating Yelena (hate...her...so...much) I dunno, maybe it's just me, maybe I haven't gotten that far yet, maybe I just haven't noticed, but I'm not seeing these big choices, yet. The only thing that's come back to me - off the top of my head - was letting that guy with the eye patch live. It's a fun game, and I like it, I just don't feel it's any better than ME in terms of choice yet. But we'll see.

[KainrycKarr]

littlezack wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Back to conversations though....DX is better in that as you talk to someone, the camera moves, the characters move around throughout the scene as though in a movie, rather than standing in the same spot for a ten minute conversation.

ME2 does the same thing.

And I just got through beating Yelena (hate...her...so...much) I dunno, maybe it's just me, maybe I haven't gotten that far yet, maybe I just haven't noticed, but I'm not seeing these big choices, yet. The only thing that's come back to me - off the top of my head - was letting that guy with the eye patch live. It's a fun game, and I like it, I just don't feel it's any better than ME in terms of choice yet. But we'll see.

no, it really doesn't. In ME, you just choose red or blue. In DX, the conversations are context-sensitive based on the character's personality archetype, and there's generally more than one "influence" point in the conversation.

[HogarthHughes 3]

They're different games really. Like has already been suggested, ME could take a few tips from the dialogue wheel and persuasion system. However the more open-approach stealthy style of DEHR doesn't really match up with ME's gameplay at all. Sure DEHR can be played like a shooter, but that isn't really the focus by any means. When enemies can kill you in about two seconds if they catch you out of cover, constant shootouts tend to lose their appeal. Of course, being able to aim from behind cover with weapons that can kill with a single headshot certainly makes it easier but even so. DEHR is heavily stealth based, ME just isn't even close to that right now.

More fights that use the environment would be great though, for instance enemies like the Berserker in GoW are great fun and add some much needed variety (e.g. blind enemy, have to lure her into pillars to make her susceptible to a satellite-based weapon.) More destructible environments in general would be cool too, not that DEHR even has that apart from a few sections of wall and doors.

[littlezack]

KainrycKarr wrote...

littlezack wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Back to conversations though....DX is better in that as you talk to someone, the camera moves, the characters move around throughout the scene as though in a movie, rather than standing in the same spot for a ten minute conversation.

ME2 does the same thing.

And I just got through beating Yelena (hate...her...so...much) I dunno, maybe it's just me, maybe I haven't gotten that far yet, maybe I just haven't noticed, but I'm not seeing these big choices, yet. The only thing that's come back to me - off the top of my head - was letting that guy with the eye patch live. It's a fun game, and I like it, I just don't feel it's any better than ME in terms of choice yet. But we'll see.

no, it really doesn't. In ME, you just choose red or blue. In DX, the conversations are context-sensitive based on the character's personality archetype, and there's generally more than one "influence" point in the conversation.

I was talking about the camera work. In ME2, the camera and characters don't just stay in one spot, they move around, too.

[atheelogos]

sympathy4saren wrote...

I haven't played this game personally, but I eventually plan to and I've heard a lot of good about it. What elements in the game would you like to see Mass Effect 3 and the Mass Effect IP incorporate that you feel would help in making it a great game?

In a word, Freedom

I don't think anything they did in Deus Ex HR should be added to ME3 seeing as the games are very diffferent and ME3 is too far into development, but other games that are set in the ME universe could learn a lot about choice.

For example in Deus ex I don't have to kill anyone except bosses because I can choose to talk people down instead of murdering them and everyone with them. In ME you must kill an entire level of people no matter what you say or do.

Modifié par atheelogos, 29 août 2011 - 05:23 .

[ubermensch007]

Malanek999 wrote...

The other thing I like about the DX dialogue system is that you can't just pick the blue or the red option to "win" the conversation. You need to pick different options depending on what you think will work best with who you are dealing with.

However we are so far into the ME system with paragon and renegade that I don't see it very effective to throw that away now. Save it for another game with the morality.

@Malanek999: It's funny that you should mention this.Because that's how BioWare use to roll.Back in KOTOR... I'll never forget how fun it was trying to figure out the best dialogue options to get Juhani to stop freaking out and come back with me to the Jedi Enclave.

http://t1.gstatic.co...qOU0mDl2vRsv5aQ

Ah... Good times

Modifié par ubermensch007, 29 août 2011 - 05:45 .

[shenlonzero]

none.

[VeR0se]

shenlonzero wrote...

none.

this

[littlezack]

atheelogos wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

I haven't played this game personally, but I eventually plan to and I've heard a lot of good about it. What elements in the game would you like to see Mass Effect 3 and the Mass Effect IP incorporate that you feel would help in making it a great game?

In a word, Freedom

I don't think anything they did in Deus Ex HR should be added to ME3 seeing as the games are very diffferent and ME3 is too far into development, but other games that are set in the ME universe could learn a lot about choice.

For example in Deus ex I don't have to kill anyone except bosses because I can choose to talk people down instead of murdering them and everyone with them. In ME you must kill an entire level of people no matter what you say or do.

You have to sneak around most of the enemies if you want to avoid killing people. You can't talk down EVERYBODY. And I've yet to see how the differing approaches change anything more than a few lines of dialogue - whether I sneak through or kill everyone in my path, you still end up at the same place fighting the same boss.

Modifié par littlezack, 29 août 2011 - 06:11 .

[Catsith]

The conversation and interrogation system, ambient music, and living hubs.

Too many times has my Shepard (or Hawke) said something completely unexpected in a way that I would never have wanted them to, pretty much killing any sense of roleplay for my character. I vastly prefer DXHR's clear cut conversation system, and an interrogation with a key quest giver is really tense and fun.

The ambient music in DXHR is incredible and makes every zone unique and fun to explore.. something I really missed from ME2.

And of course the living hubs. Being able to see people have conversations, get brief lore bits and chats with the locals, seeing people walk around.. it really makes the hubs feel alive, as opposed to the sterile ME2 areas.

Other than that, I don't see what else ME3 should borrow. DXHR is made as a single-character, slow-paced stealthy game, which is the complete opposite of the ME games.

Modifié par Catsith, 29 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[GodWood]

VeR0se wrote...

shenlonzero wrote...
none.

this

Why?

[moneycashgeorge]

davidshooter wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

If anything, ME should go for the old Rainbow Six squad gameplay route. That would be interesting. 

I like ME better than Rainbow overall, but I really wish Bioware would look at what that series did with squad based combat. 

Breaching through doors (in different ways), different settings for the squad, having to actually get to a downed squadmate to revive them, smoke and thermal tactics, silencers that allow you to pick people off in a level without alerting everyone else, squadmates that follow orders (well, better than ME anyway), large maps where multiple strategies and routes can be employed and most importantly - a difficulty setting (enemy AI) that is actually hard.  A lone wolf terror hunt on Realistic (without camping and exploiting AI) remains challenging over and over again. 

THIS times a million. Rainbow Six gameplay would actually make Mass Effect the greatest game ever, by far. Just copy Rainbow Six Vegas exactly, take out the first person view, combined with Mass Effect's powers and you have perfection.

[sedrikhcain]

Savber100 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

That said, I would love to see the dialogue wheel of DX in ME.  

Why? 

(I apologize if that sounds blunt; I am actually curious)

In short? 

Those goddamn paraphrases are way too vague in ME. I choose an option that I believe will speak in a certain way and it turns up to be something else entirely. I want to actually read what I'm about to say. To me, there's nothing more immersive-breaking when your Shepard says something out of character because I didn't understand the vague paraphrasing. 

The DX system seem to work a lot better in preventing that mistake.

...

There's nothing wrong with that is there? 

This is a matter of taste, obviously, but I much prefer the paraphrase approach from ME. To me, what's immersion breaking is reading something, then hearing the character say the exact same thing. If they're going to type out word for word what my character is saying, I'd rather the character not actually speak the dialogue once I pick it -- a la DA: O or, back in the day, KOTOR.

[habitat 67]

Well that music is pretty darn good.

[sedrikhcain]

Catsith wrote...

The conversation and interrogation system, ambient music, and living hubs.

Too many times has my Shepard (or Hawke) said something completely unexpected in a way that I would never have wanted them to, pretty much killing any sense of roleplay for my character. I vastly prefer DXHR's clear cut conversation system, and an interrogation with a key quest giver is really tense and fun.

The ambient music in DXHR is incredible and makes every zone unique and fun to explore.. something I really missed from ME2.

And of course the living hubs. Being able to see people have conversations, get brief lore bits and chats with the locals, seeing people walk around.. it really makes the hubs feel alive, as opposed to the sterile ME2 areas.

Other than that, I don't see what else ME3 should borrow. DXHR is made as a single-character, slow-paced stealthy game, which is the complete opposite of the ME games.

Wait, I thought those ambient elements and living hubs were in ME2. Is this a question of degrees? One issue I've never had with the Mass Effect series is feeling like any of the hub worlds were "sterile"

And, again, it's a matter of taste but I like not knowing precisely what Shepard will say when I push the button. It makes it more cinematic.

I'm starting to get the sense that these differences of opinion are about favoring RPG immersion or cinematic storytelling immersion.

[GodWood]

There's tone describey things above each dialogue option (e.g, sarcastic, flirtatious etc) so you don't need to read the full text and hear it again.

Modifié par GodWood, 29 août 2011 - 07:25 .

[IggyD]

The ability tree, definitely. Each class would have to get its own, of course.

[Bostur]

One of the great things about DE:HR is that it doesn't blindly copy features of other games. Ideally I'd prefer ME3 to do the same and implement features that would work well for ME3 no matter what other games do.

Still the dialogue system of DE is excellent and some games could do well to learn from that. Especially the accurate paraphrasing is something I have missed in the ME series and in DA2.
All the brainwave analyzing of DE felt great in that game, but I doubt it would work in another setting.

[Ieldra]

(1) The conversation and persuasion system, beyond any doubt. It's extremely satisfying to have a one-word mood or action indicator *and* the start of what Jensen's going to say. And the functionality of the social interaction augmentation is so well-integrated that you forget it's a system after a few conversations. I wish Shepard had a persuasion skill that worked that way. You could even work Paragon and Renagade into it, giving bonuses for an "appease", "charm" or "pressure" option, respectively.  

(2) The interactive environment. That's one thing I've been missing in ME's gameplay for a long time. The paring down on the environments to what's relevant for the story went way too far in the ME games (actually, it started with KoTOR when Bioware moved to consoles and it never got better). 

(3) As mentioned above, the living hubs. Practically every area I've visited so far in DXHR feels more alive than any of the ME(2) areas.

(4) ME could learn something from DX:HR's stealth gameplay. Not that I'd ever expected a full implementation of such a system in an ME game, but if I have a class called "Infiltrator", I think I can reasonably expect *some* stealth gameplay that is more involved than what we've got in Arrival.

All in all, I love Mass Effect for its story and as an engrossing experience pulling on all emotional strings, but DX:HR has shown me again what it is to love a game's gameplay and level design. Now if we could only have the best of both worlds...