431 réponses à ce sujet

[Dariuszp]

Another topic. I'm paragon because I saved Ascension ? Well guess what - I saved that ship because I think it will be useful in the future. Nothing more.
I would kill without thinking alien council if I could. But they were on a ship that I want so I just save the ship and them along with it.
For me I was more a paragon than renegade. Same with Rachni. I saved them to have bug army in the future. Nothing more.
So paragon/renegade system judge me by limited options of ME and poor story/gameplay design (where the designer didn't see other options) or by how others see me ?

[In Exile]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
your making it way too complicated. your very wrong here too.

No, I'm not making it complicated.

when i point a gun at your head, you do as i say. period.  your not going to examin how i handled living my life before that point.

I will absolutely call you out on your bull**** if I know you're full of it. It's the difference between your best friend taking out their gun, and a police officer taking out his gun.

theres no such person in the galaxy that has a gun pointed at their head, whod say "your bluffing shepard! i know you saved balak! ha, sucker! bye bye now."

There's lots of dangerous criminals who would absolutely call your bluff.

being COMMANDER SHEPARD is the reason why paragon VS renegade is dumb, moreso in ME3. which is another point i brought up in my that post you replied to.  the only person thats not gonig to do what commander shepard says, with a gun pointed at their head, is a dead person. paragon or not.

 
If Commander Shepard is a known philanthropist, then it makes perfect sense to call bull**** on the threat. 

The bold line just shows how much you're missing the point. NOT every Shepard will shoot to kill.

And if you were in that situation, you'd have the option to kill them. It would be the bottom right option. You just wouldn't get to intimidate them. 
 

i dont know what your referencing with shepard and the quarians.

At the trial. Shepard could only give a passionate speech about how much Tali cares about the qurians if you saved Veetor and saved the captain on the recruitment planet. 

[Ryzaki]

MrChowderClam wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Garrus is aug'd.

Sorry, I had to do it:

LMFAO

This is gold! 

[guybrush threepwad]

People have mentioned the dialogue system in Deus Ex- but I don't like it. It is essentially a game, with correct answers, making choices rather irrelevant as their is no point to failing the speech check. That's not role-playing if I can't respond the way I'd like. And I'd rather be somewhat surprised by what he says.

The multiple ways to achieve a goal is something that Deus Ex does well, though they fail when they reward more xp for stealth/non lethal route over any other.

The endings sucked, there was really no payoff to anything you did.

So I can't say there is really anything, besides a more tactical combat experience, that I'd like carried over from Deus Ex.

[LPPrince]

Ryzaki wrote...

MrChowderClam wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Garrus is aug'd.

Sorry, I had to do it:

LMFAO

This is gold! 

No, it actually IS gold. Because DXHR's color scheme is black and gold.

[Xewaka]

Conversation system. Stealth.
To specify on conversation system, I'm not talking about augmentations telling me "pick this". I'm talking about the presentation: short paraphrase that stablishes the action plus full line that accompanies the choice.
It's weird that a game with such a fixed protagonist allow better character control (and thus roleplaying options) than a supposed "make your own character" game.

Modifié par Xewaka, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Icinix]

The ability to save ANYWHERE.

[Sidney]

guybrush threepwad wrote...

People have mentioned the dialogue system in Deus Ex- but I don't like it. It is essentially a game, with correct answers, making choices rather irrelevant as their is no point to failing the speech check. That's not role-playing if I can't respond the way I'd like. And I'd rather be somewhat surprised by what he says.

The multiple ways to achieve a goal is something that Deus Ex does well, though they fail when they reward more xp for stealth/non lethal route over any other.

You are correct on the dialog being mostly "functional" not character driven. The fact that people like that plus a lot of the "can't do everything" answers here about ME tells me a ton of people aren't role playing but trying to min/max their character.

The claim you can solve things many ways is frankly mostly untrue. The game is a "blend" of MSG and ME but it is sooo much more MSG. Between the fragile nature of Jensen and the relative lack of ammo you have really until after Picus when I'm now flush with ammo from vendors you arreally pushed into a stealth approach

[Sidney]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

when i point a gun at your head, you do as i say. period.  your not going to examin how i handled living my life before that point. theres no such person in the galaxy that has a gun pointed at their head, whod say "your bluffing shepard! i know you saved balak! ha, sucker! bye bye now."

Of course you do. Sven Larsen of the Swedish police threatens to torture me I don't buy that threat. Chun Park of the North Korean secret police does so I am going to buy the threat. Reputuation really does matter, perception is reality and Shep has a galactic reputation.

The system is imperfect but it really is no different than the Oblivion system where as you work a skill it gets better - in this case you are working your charm/intimidtate skills. Put that way it is very much an RPG type system at least as much as the "Hey, I shot 4 Batarians with my assault rifle now I can add 3 points to my Charm skill".

[Il Divo]

guybrush threepwad wrote...

People have mentioned the dialogue system in Deus Ex- but I don't like it. It is essentially a game, with correct answers, making choices rather irrelevant as their is no point to failing the speech check. That's not role-playing if I can't respond the way I'd like. And I'd rather be somewhat surprised by what he says.

But within limits,  you're still free to react however you want. The game simply won't reward you the XP for failing the persuade checks, which makes sense as you didn't actually do anything. That itself is the purpose of the social augmentation: to be better able to manipulate people's interests. If you assume that Jensen doesn't believe what he says and is simply a smooth-talker, the problem goes away.

Modifié par Il Divo, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[nelly21]

Xewaka wrote...

Conversation system. Stealth.
To specify on conversation system, I'm not talking about augmentations telling me "pick this". I'm talking about the presentation: short paraphrase that stablishes the action plus full line that accompanies the choice.
It's weird that a game with such a fixed protagonist allow better character control (and thus roleplaying options) than a supposed "make your own character" game.

It doesn't, at least not in my opinion. Take the confrontation with Sandoval for example. The manner in which I roleplayed Jensen made him hate Humanity Front. When he confronts Sandoval, I wanted Jensen to kill him. Instead I got a drawn out scene where Jensen tries to convince him not to commit suicide. Deus Ex is fantastic, but Jensen is never really your character.

The worst one was having to empathize with Sanders to save the hostage. At least I haven't figured out a way to confront him and save the hostage.

Still awesome game.

[arne1234]

deus ex outfits are pretty cool.
It would be cool tough giving shepard a couple of non lethal moves or actions that he can use in a city. Shepard is a spectre meaning he can do whatever it takes, this is far from the truth. In fact Shepard can only do the worst of the worst that is, going in and kill everybody. That's fine in a war zone against husks but killing every opponent in a civilised part of society seems somewhat wrong.

[OriginalNameGuy]

"I never asked for this."(Reaper Tech)

[The Spamming Troll]

In Exile wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
your making it way too complicated. your very wrong here too.

No, I'm not making it complicated.

when i point a gun at your head, you do as i say. period.  your not going to examin how i handled living my life before that point.

I will absolutely call you out on your bull**** if I know you're full of it. It's the difference between your best friend taking out their gun, and a police officer taking out his gun.

theres no such person in the galaxy that has a gun pointed at their head, whod say "your bluffing shepard! i know you saved balak! ha, sucker! bye bye now."

There's lots of dangerous criminals who would absolutely call your bluff.

being COMMANDER SHEPARD is the reason why paragon VS renegade is dumb, moreso in ME3. which is another point i brought up in my that post you replied to.  the only person thats not gonig to do what commander shepard says, with a gun pointed at their head, is a dead person. paragon or not.

 
If Commander Shepard is a known philanthropist, then it makes perfect sense to call bull**** on the threat. 

The bold line just shows how much you're missing the point. NOT every Shepard will shoot to kill.

And if you were in that situation, you'd have the option to kill them. It would be the bottom right option. You just wouldn't get to intimidate them. 
 

i dont know what your referencing with shepard and the quarians.

At the trial. Shepard could only give a passionate speech about how much Tali cares about the qurians if you saved Veetor and saved the captain on the recruitment planet. 

you act like a paragon never killed someone before. im pretty sure i killed atleast 300 organics and 150 synnthetics in ME1, i got an acheivment for it. so saying a paragon wont kill someone because they are a paragon is ludicris. just becasue im having a conversation with you, doesnt mean your not going to die.

in a life or death situation, if you have information thatll help save the galaxy, then a paragon is going to get that info out of you, whether through picking the blue dialogue, or exiting the dialogue and blasting your face off in a fire fight.

i get that you have an impresion of who someone may or may not be, but that doesnt mean your going to play ignorant to the fact that you have a gun pointed at your head. i doudlbe dog dare you to call my paragons bluff. it surely wont end well for you.

saving veetor and kal reagor SHOULD allow for an easier attempt at helping the quarians. for the same reason helping legion is going to help with the geth problems. but i really dont care to argue about story, specially ME2s story.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 01 septembre 2011 - 02:52 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

LPPrince wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MrChowderClam wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Garrus is aug'd.

Sorry, I had to do it:

LMFAO

This is gold! 

No, it actually IS gold. Because DXHR's color scheme is black and gold.

I know!

[The Sapien]

Examples of what NOT to do?

[In Exile]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

you act like a paragon never killed someone before. im pretty sure i killed atleast 300 organics and 150 synnthetics in ME1, i got an acheivment for it. so saying a paragon wont kill someone because they are a paragon is ludicris. just becasue im having a conversation with you, doesnt mean your not going to die.  

A pure paragon won't kill someone in cold blood. A mixed player would, but that might give you enough renegade points to pass the intimidation check.

in a life or death situation, if you have information thatll help save the galaxy, then a paragon is going to get that info out of you, whether through picking the blue dialogue, or exiting the dialogue and blasting your face off in a fire fight.

You're still not getting it and making up your own personal world. The "blue" dialogue is about charm, and talking you into giving information. It's a negotiation. The red option is intimidation. To intimidate someone, you need to be intimidating.

i get that you have an impresion of who someone may or may not be, but that doesnt mean your going to play ignorant to the fact that you have a gun pointed at your head. i doudlbe dog dare you to call my paragons bluff. it surely wont end well for you.

You're still making up some personal magic Shepard that does this.

And as I said twice by now in ME1 and ME2, the killing option is not the intimidate option. It's the bottom right. The intimidate option is the threat itself. You can execute people like that in cold blood in ME1 and ME2 with 0 renegade points. You just can't intimidate them.

And you've just told me if you can't intimidate me you'll kill me, which is absolutely what you can do in game.

So far your only complaint is that waving a gun in someone's face isn't enough to make them talk automatically. 

saving veetor and kal reagor SHOULD allow for an easier attempt at helping the quarians. for the same reason helping legion is going to help with the geth problems. but i really dont care to argue about story, specially ME2s story.

That's not my point. 90% of what Shepard says has nothing to do with either quarian. They just speak up about Tali. Shepard could give the exact same speech about them, and without them, the speech could fail.

But Shepard can't give that speech without rescuing them. 

[The Spamming Troll]

In Exile wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

you act like a paragon never killed someone before. im pretty sure i killed atleast 300 organics and 150 synnthetics in ME1, i got an acheivment for it. so saying a paragon wont kill someone because they are a paragon is ludicris. just becasue im having a conversation with you, doesnt mean your not going to die.  

A pure paragon won't kill someone in cold blood. A mixed player would, but that might give you enough renegade points to pass the intimidation check.

in a life or death situation, if you have information thatll help save the galaxy, then a paragon is going to get that info out of you, whether through picking the blue dialogue, or exiting the dialogue and blasting your face off in a fire fight.

You're still not getting it and making up your own personal world. The "blue" dialogue is about charm, and talking you into giving information. It's a negotiation. The red option is intimidation. To intimidate someone, you need to be intimidating.

i get that you have an impresion of who someone may or may not be, but that doesnt mean your going to play ignorant to the fact that you have a gun pointed at your head. i doudlbe dog dare you to call my paragons bluff. it surely wont end well for you.

You're still making up some personal magic Shepard that does this.

And as I said twice by now in ME1 and ME2, the killing option is not the intimidate option. It's the bottom right. The intimidate option is the threat itself. You can execute people like that in cold blood in ME1 and ME2 with 0 renegade points. You just can't intimidate them.

And you've just told me if you can't intimidate me you'll kill me, which is absolutely what you can do in game.

So far your only complaint is that waving a gun in someone's face isn't enough to make them talk automatically. 

saving veetor and kal reagor SHOULD allow for an easier attempt at helping the quarians. for the same reason helping legion is going to help with the geth problems. but i really dont care to argue about story, specially ME2s story.

That's not my point. 90% of what Shepard says has nothing to do with either quarian. They just speak up about Tali. Shepard could give the exact same speech about them, and without them, the speech could fail.

But Shepard can't give that speech without rescuing them. 

you can say it as many times as you want, doesnt mean im going to agree with it the more you write it down.

i clearly remember my pure paragon presumably murdering some 3 million batarians in arrival. does that outcome change because i was a 100% paragon? nope. my 100% paragon did what a 100% renegade did.

blue and red responses ARE magic responses. to me theres not much differnce in saying "No." or "No!" when someone has a gun pointed at my nogin(which im only useing as an example. its not like every charm/intim response features a gun pointed at your head.). if steve carrell pointed a gun at your head, youd still do exactly what
he said. theres absolutely no way your turning your back to that
situation, no matter how big you think your balls are.

thers just no reason for me to agree with you thinking a paragon wont do what it takes to get the job done. its almost like your saying renegade is the only option if i want to get things done. captain picard is a pure paragon, doesnt mean he wont blow your damn head off if he needs to get what he wants.

[MrChowderClam]

LPPrince wrote...

No, it actually IS gold. Because DXHR's color scheme is black and gold.

lol. oh u guys

[LPPrince]

MrChowderClam wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

No, it actually IS gold. Because DXHR's color scheme is black and gold.

lol. oh u guys

He so funny.

Oh wait.

I'm the "he" in question.

Me so funny.

[Dean_the_Young]

In Exile wrote...


There's lots of dangerous criminals who would absolutely call your bluff.

Hell, fun fact: a large number of cases of shooting deaths in burglaries occur because the homeowner with the gun didn't shoot and the criminal either wrestled the gun away or drew their own and shot.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

you can say it as many times as you want, doesnt mean im going to agree with it the more you write it down.

It doesn't make you any more or less correct if you adamantly refuse to change your mind...

i clearly remember my pure paragon presumably murdering some 3 million batarians in arrival. does that outcome change because i was a 100% paragon? nope. my 100% paragon did what a 100% renegade did.

And this is icing on the cake.

thers just no reason for me to agree with you thinking a paragon wont do what it takes to get the job done. its almost like your saying renegade is the only option if i want to get things done. captain picard is a pure paragon, doesnt mean he wont blow your damn head off if he needs to get what he wants.

It can well mean that someone else is willing to call a bluff, whether Shepard is bluffing or not.

People with a reputation for compromise have a hard time being successful hardliners in negotiations. It doesn't mean they can't refuse a deal, but it does affect how other people react to them.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Not sure if it could count as an addition because having watched this video it got me wondering if we can do that with Shepard already in one of the previous games.... no, I know we can have Shepard dancing, but I meant the 'cover' dance

[MrChowderClam]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Not sure if it could count as an addition because having watched this video it got me wondering if we can do that with Shepard already in one of the previous games.... no, I know we can have Shepard dancing, but I meant the 'cover' dance

haha. safety dance!!! but seriously, interactive environments, bioware. Imagine all of the "gameplay value"

Modifié par MrChowderClam, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In Exile wrote...


There's lots of dangerous criminals who would absolutely call your bluff.

Hell,
fun fact: a large number of cases of shooting deaths in burglaries
occur because the homeowner with the gun didn't shoot and the criminal
either wrestled the gun away or drew their own and shot.

Joe McHomeowner is not comparable to commander shepard. i could get behind
what you guys are getting at with calling conrad vernors bluff, but not with commander friggin shepard.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

you can say it as many times as you want, doesnt mean im going to agree with it the more you write it down.

It doesn't make you any more or less correct if you adamantly refuse to change your mind...

what does that even mean? my mind is already made up. atleast that much should be clear.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i clearly remember my pure paragon presumably murdering some 3 million
batarians in arrival. does that outcome change because i was a 100%
paragon? nope. my 100% paragon did what a 100% renegade did.

And
this is icing on the cake.

my point was that paragons can do very very bad things, like whiping out a civilization. so why cant i talk random merc #3 into telling me what i want to know, just becaseu i spared the rachni queen or saved the council? its the fact that IM COMMANDER SHEPARD, and thats all they have to know. i currently play a paragon, and people in the game still fear me, regardless of my goodie twoshoeness.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:59 .