1027 réponses à ce sujet

[element eater]

Morroian wrote...

Bioware are willing to compromise pity some of the 'fans' aren't.

i dont think fans need to compromise if its some thing they consider important. After all they play a game for there entertainment.  If they dont find something about it entertaining why should they compromise. I know that theres somethings i wont compromise on if they dont feature im done

Gunderic wrote...

I've got to wonder how easy it's going to be to design a wide variety of different outfits for unique characters. It seems costly even to have 3 unique outfits per party member, unless they make the differences very subtle.

i hear you. I hope they can avoid a situation were essentialy customisation boils down to a few differant outfit choices i mean thats realy no differant from a beat em up or resident evil game, we'll just have to see though .  Hopefully the idea will come good .

edit: just going to add that this measure hopefully isnt the limit the of the best of both worlds philosophy as other have said this is still da2's world just an improved version of it

Modifié par element eater, 29 août 2011 - 03:59 .

[Harid]

I'm kind of scared that cosplay is the reason for some of your changes for "creating an iconic appearance." Who gives a **** about cosplayers. It just blows my mind.  Do you think people cosplaying Lightning makes Square-Enix feel any better about FFXIII being terrible?  Why then would it do the same for you?

How about leaving companions in their default gear that's an "iconic appearance" and allowing us to put them in whatever armor we choose to make them look whatever way we choose going forward. Geez. I could gear Morrigan in full plate if I wanted to. Give us that option for everyone. Leave them in their "iconic appearance" in their home base. Simple stuff, but letting us choose armor and then our companions looking exactly the same is some final fantasy jrpg bull****, and I thought you guys learned that that is not what people want.

I think some of you guys really need to poll people outside of the Bioware community. See what people on other boards like Neogaf, heck, even Gamefaqs think, as you are more likely to find people that disagree with you, and you are less likely to be influenced by some of the crazy people that reside here. Some of the people here would take anything you guys spit out, which is fine for your self esteem, but bad in terms of trying to grab back some of the people that feel burned by your recent decisons.

Modifié par Harid, 29 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[billy the squid]

Harid wrote...

....

I think some of you guys really need to poll people outside of the Bioware community. See what people on other boards like Neogaf, heck, even Gamefaqs think, as you are more likely to find people that disagree with you, and you are less likely to be influenced by some of the crazy people that reside here. Some of the people here would take anything you guys spit out, which is fine for your self esteem, but bad in terms of trying to grab back some of the people that feel burned by your recent decisons.

I agree, but this being the internet, the story may end up on another site anyway, depends on whether it will get any attention from players who have moved on from DA2 after being very disappointed.

[csfteeeer]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Hey folks,

At the PAX panel last night (which I enjoyed immensely! Thanks to all those that came, and pushed the room to capacity), I made some mentions about the pros and cons of the direction we took for follower armors and appearances in DAII, and strongly hinted that customization would be coming back. In the interests of transparency, I wanted to pop in here and lay out our current thinking in terms of how follower armors will work in the future.

To start, there was a thread a month back or so that was an excellent litmus test for us, as it asked what you folks would like to see in follower armors, and it was great to see that what was suggested by the majority of people was what we were thinking. I was careful not to comment much in that thread, so as not to influence the discussion, but a huge thanks to the folks who offered their opinions.

Second, I want to make it very clear that this is the direction we are thinking, not a contractual agreement. When and exactly how we make the changes is something we can't talk about at this point; remember that no official products have been announced, and, of course, circumstances can change, but I'm reasonably confident in this direction and thought it would be good to let you know early.

Now, to the meat of it. Our goals are:

• Followers will continue to have iconic appearances. Similar to DAII, their outfits will be more "full body" rather than parts-based (like Hawke or the DAO followers), and these armors will be unique to the followers. This decision allows us to give the followers appearances that "break the rules," such as isabela's boots coming over the knee, or Merril's gloves coming seamlessly up her arms. Ultimately, we believe that the strong visual identity given to characters by iconic appearances is an important part of their identity.
• Followers will have more than one appearance. Whether they be unlocked by advancing the core story, plot reward, some crazy ass crafting quest, romance or completing a personal plot, we would like the followers to have more than one appearance over the course of the game. To do show allows them to progress, grow and react to changing circumstances, all of which help us tell a visual story with the followers.
• The player should be given control over the follower's appearance once more than one appearance becomes available. Did you prefer Merril in green over white? Fair enough. We want to treat additional appearances more as unlocks, than as mandatory changes, so that you, as the player, maintain control over how your team looks, within each character's iconic style. Functionally, imagine going to the camp in Origins or your follower's base in DAII and clicking on a pack or wardrobe, and opening an interface that lets you pick which of their outfits you want them to wear.
• Followers will have their equipment slots restored and armor you equip in those slots will have the expected statistical impact on the follower, including enchantments, bonuses and base armor stats, along with requirements to wear the armor applying. As per above, adding armor pieces to these slots will not impact the follower's appearance directly, only their statistics.
• Followers who have no armor equipped by the player will be automatically equipped with a "basic" suit of armor that progresses automatically with them as they level, similar to the "basic" weapons that equip if you remove your real weapons in DAII. For those players uninterested in fiddling with their follower armors, these basic suits will be serviceable, and loosely equivalent to an run-of-the-mill suit of armor with no bonuses or enchantments for their current level. Hardly optimal, but serviceable enough for the lower difficulties.

Additionally, we are experimenting with armor equipped to the followers having some additional visual impact on the follower's iconic appearance, but we'll dig deeper on that as we get closer to a final implementation. As a general rule, you should expect that any deviation from the ideas outlined above would be towards more visual customization, rather than less.

Bender is happy for this

This is a fantastic news.

I See that they're taking the route that the Ultima series took (particularly U7:Black Gate used), which was interesting.

Then Again, i think this is overly complicated.

The best way, imo, would have been "The Morrigan" way, and by that, i mean give the companions a unique right from the get go, and if you don't like them, then you can customize them, although the unique appearences would have had to upgrade with level of the character.

Still, this is very good.

[csfteeeer]

Gunderic wrote...
I've got to wonder how easy it's going to be to design a wide variety of different outfits for unique characters. It seems costly even to have 3 unique outfits per party member, unless they make the differences very subtle.

Why would it be difficult?
and if the differences are going to be very subtle, then why bother doing this?

[csfteeeer]

dp

[MerinTB]

Brockololly wrote...

Filament wrote...
It's not the best of both worlds... it's the best of one world (unique appearances) and a half-measure of the other (statistical but not visual customization). You might say having full customization would hinder the unique appearance aspect slightly (though I think that effect is being exaggerated)... maybe true. Maybe there is no "best of both worlds" here.

Agreed- it seems like just more of what DA2 started.

Without going into too much detail, I generally agree as well.

But it's become glaringly obvious to me that design decisions at BioWare have drastically moved away from what I want in my games in the last few years or so, and as such I cannot say that I'm surprised nor truly disappointed anymore.

The focus used to be on story and choice at BioWare (including MC build and party composition / build).  Now the focus truly seems to have shifted to cinematic and iconic.  The company that was praised as the go-to place for RPGs now muses on whether RPGs are relevent.

I believe Mike Laidlaw is doing the best he can, as well as everyone else involved with the Dragon Age franchise, and that they are doing all they can to make the kind of games they want to make.  I can appreciate that.
I can even appreciate changing markets (though, having worked in market research for years, I know how that can be a euphemism for "we collected data and massaged it to prove what we wanted to prove in the first place.")

This may be reaction to some feedback, but it's selective feedback.  That's not me saying it's the wrong feedback, or not even in some cases the majority feedback... just it's the designers picking which critiques to acknowledge and address.  This choosing is mostly based on what they, themselves, would see as areas they want to improve on already.  Again, nothing wrong with this, but it shouldn't be made into something it isn't .

I wouldn't be at all surprised if these changes to the companion appearances aren't what they initially wanted to do anyway, and they are just continuing to refine it.

Modifié par MerinTB, 29 août 2011 - 03:22 .

[Maconbar]

csfteeeer wrote...

Gunderic wrote...
I've got to wonder how easy it's going to be to design a wide variety of different outfits for unique characters. It seems costly even to have 3 unique outfits per party member, unless they make the differences very subtle.

Why would it be difficult?
and if the differences are going to be very subtle, then why bother doing this?

I don't think that it would be difficult just resource consuming because BW stopped using identical bodies for companions.

[Harid]

Maconbar wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Gunderic wrote...
I've got to wonder how easy it's going to be to design a wide variety of different outfits for unique characters. It seems costly even to have 3 unique outfits per party member, unless they make the differences very subtle.

Why would it be difficult?
and if the differences are going to be very subtle, then why bother doing this?

I don't think that it would be difficult just resource consuming because BW stopped using identical bodies for companions.

I think I could deal with the slight body differences being ignored if I could get the ability back to armor my pc's whoever I want without having my intelligence insulted with the "they are their own people" bs.  Yeah, they need me to solve their problems, pick their stats, and choose their abilities, but they are their own people, right.  Whatever.

This would all not be a problem if Bioware created their engine around your main character having differing body types that they probably should have from day one, by the way.

[Salaya]

I would prefer armor customization with visual effects, but I agree with the "The best of the two worlds" line here.

I know people gives importance to the way their characters look (and the logic of equip plate armors and see them there), but I believe that stat-change is the true issue with customization.If you add the chance of "wardrobe" our partners, I find the best of both viewpoints present

Modifié par Salaya, 29 août 2011 - 03:34 .

[Mr.House]

Harid wrote...

I'm kind of scared that cosplay is the reason for some of your changes for "creating an iconic appearance." Who gives a **** about cosplayers. It just blows my mind.  Do you think people cosplaying Lightning makes Square-Enix feel any better about FFXIII being terrible?  Why then would it do the same for you?

How about leaving companions in their default gear that's an "iconic appearance" and allowing us to put them in whatever armor we choose to make them look whatever way we choose going forward. Geez. I could gear Morrigan in full plate if I wanted to. Give us that option for everyone. Leave them in their "iconic appearance" in their home base. Simple stuff, but letting us choose armor and then our companions looking exactly the same is some final fantasy jrpg bull****, and I thought you guys learned that that is not what people want.

I think some of you guys really need to poll people outside of the Bioware community. See what people on other boards like Neogaf, heck, even Gamefaqs think, as you are more likely to find people that disagree with you, and you are less likely to be influenced by some of the crazy people that reside here. Some of the people here would take anything you guys spit out, which is fine for your self esteem, but bad in terms of trying to grab back some of the people that feel burned by your recent decisons.

Grow up. Stats matter, not looks.

[jds1bio]

Harid wrote...

I'm kind of scared that cosplay is the reason for some of your changes for "creating an iconic appearance." Who gives a **** about cosplayers. It just blows my mind.  Do you think people cosplaying Lightning makes Square-Enix feel any better about FFXIII being terrible?  Why then would it do the same for you?

I think it's becoming easier to fall for some of the trappings of conventions and conventioneers as representative of the entire 2-million plus sales base of this game, but I think it's just as fair to take someone's forum post as viable input into the process as it is to take someone's participation at a convention.

As far as the OP's post's content, sounds pretty good.

[willholt]

Savber100 wrote...

*grumbles*

You know what? Just give us MODDING TOOLS for DA3 and I'll gladly go with this current direction.

Please? Pretty please?

Other than that, I admit I'm a little disappointed that there won't be any visual changes when you equip different armor.

Hopefully we'll gave 5-6 different sets per companion.

I predict three things:

1/ There will be no modding tools

2/ Having made this 'compromise', Bioware will now feel free to spam those who buy DA3 with DLC companion pack after companion pack. Had they tried this pre-compromise (and for DA2) the uproar of disapproval would have been deafening. The compromise removes a substantial number of 'roarers' and lessens the sting. Companion Outfit DLC will now become a staple of the DA franchise.

3/ Because of prediction number 2... DA3 modding will be made as difficult as possible. Wouldn't want those modders cutting into the bottom line by making companion packs less relevant, now would we?

[willholt]

Mr.House wrote...

Harid wrote...

I'm kind of scared that cosplay is the reason for some of your changes for "creating an iconic appearance." Who gives a **** about cosplayers. It just blows my mind.  Do you think people cosplaying Lightning makes Square-Enix feel any better about FFXIII being terrible?  Why then would it do the same for you?

How about leaving companions in their default gear that's an "iconic appearance" and allowing us to put them in whatever armor we choose to make them look whatever way we choose going forward. Geez. I could gear Morrigan in full plate if I wanted to. Give us that option for everyone. Leave them in their "iconic appearance" in their home base. Simple stuff, but letting us choose armor and then our companions looking exactly the same is some final fantasy jrpg bull****, and I thought you guys learned that that is not what people want.

I think some of you guys really need to poll people outside of the Bioware community. See what people on other boards like Neogaf, heck, even Gamefaqs think, as you are more likely to find people that disagree with you, and you are less likely to be influenced by some of the crazy people that reside here. Some of the people here would take anything you guys spit out, which is fine for your self esteem, but bad in terms of trying to grab back some of the people that feel burned by your recent decisons.

Grow up. Stats matter, not looks.

So why the obsession with the 'Iconic' looks then?

[krinst]

WELL..
I am very pleased! Thanks for sharing

[Atakuma]

I'm baffled by the reaction to this. You get full control of your companions stats again, I thought that would be important, but apparently people are more interested in playing dress up.

[Ramus Quaritch]

Atakuma wrote...

I'm baffled by the reaction to this. You get full control of your companions stats again, I thought that would be important, but apparently people are more interested in playing dress up.

For people who played not just DA:O but also Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Knights of the Old Republic (me included), having a wide variety of armors that you purchase or pick up in the game world and equipping them on your companions was a staple.  You loot/purchase armors and put them on your companions and you can tell beyond a shadow of a doubt which outfit is on the companions.  DA2 took all of that customization away.  That is why there is that kind of reaction.  

[Atakuma]

Modifié par Atakuma, 29 août 2011 - 04:15 .

[MerinTB]

Atakuma wrote...
I'm baffled by the reaction to this. You get full control of your companions stats again, I thought that would be important, but apparently people are more interested in playing dress up.

Let me make it easy for you -

(most likely) your bafflement comes from grouping together everyone who is unhappy into one  homogeneous group.

My (personal) concern is less that I get to play "dress-up" with the companions and more that it seems such a core "need" for BioWare to have "iconic" characters and (seemingly, to me, to becoming more and more so) "canon" story in a game advertised as being about player choice.

Personally, I'd rather have control of name, background, abilities and choices than appearance for my main character and the party members.
(heck, I'd rather create my whole party, but that's a dead issue)
But the "iconic" visuals for the characters is, to me, part of (and representitive of) the focus on how the game LOOKS.  On the cinematic delivery that seems to me has become the new thing that BioWare wants to be known for (not RPGs, not story, not choice - cinematic delivery.)

But, again, that's just me.

Some people actually DO want to control what the companions look like vis-a-vis armor and clothing they can put on and take off.  And I get that, too; one of the biggest "wow" factors for me with one of my old favorites, Knights of Legend, was the screen where you put on and took off armor for each member of your party, and that you could take a group shot of your party.  It was a great little touch that made the game memorable to me even to this day.

Other people will see OTHER reasons why this news is bad for them.

Your bafflement, I would wager, is that you see Mr. Laidlaw addressing "changes" that "are responsive to the community" and you cannot understand how that community is not pleased.

The important point - the community is a diverse group with vastly varying tastes and interests.

[Maconbar]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I'm baffled by the reaction to this. You get full control of your companions stats again, I thought that would be important, but apparently people are more interested in playing dress up.

Why baffled, it's not rocket science? Again, how many here would have liked the option of changing the appearance of at least one or two of their peers in DA2?

I would be all for this but I don't want to go back to all the companions having the same body.

[hoorayforicecream]

willholt wrote...

I predict three things:

1/ There will be no modding tools

2/ Having made this 'compromise', Bioware will now feel free to spam those who buy DA3 with DLC companion pack after companion pack. Had they tried this pre-compromise (and for DA2) the uproar of disapproval would have been deafening. The compromise removes a substantial number of 'roarers' and lessens the sting. Companion Outfit DLC will now become a staple of the DA franchise.

3/ Because of prediction number 2... DA3 modding will be made as difficult as possible. Wouldn't want those modders cutting into the bottom line by making companion packs less relevant, now would we?

1. DA2 has no modding tools, and that hasn't stopped people from adding their own armors and weapons to the game. The modding tools would allow us to change the campaign and add new ones of our own, but it doesn't really affect what assets are available. It just changes how we are able to access them in the game.

2. They already did this with ME2, and the uproar did not really rock the boat.

3. They've gone on record saying that the #1 factor in selling DLC comes from keeping the game installed on the computer. A toolset encourages people to keep it installed longer because of mods that come out, which further encourages DLC sales.

There's nothing stopping modelers and texture artists from creating all of these things for DA2 right now. That's why they actually are quite a few appearance mods on DANexus and the DA2 fan creation forum. The difference is that Bioware's item packs have actually new models, while the fan-made ones tend to just be retextures of existing ones because texturing is easy, and creating new 3D models isn't.

[Cutlass Jack]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Why baffled, it's not rocket science? Again, how many here would have liked the option of changing the appearance of at least one or two of their peers in DA2?

Its not the simple question you pretend it is. For example I'd love the ability to change outfits between things designed specifically from them. But I would gain no enjoyment from being able to dress them in outfits that make them look exactly like me.

In short I love that the DA2 companions actually have varying heights, body weights and body language. And that their attire isn't forced to the same limitations of player wardrobe.

So I like the proposed system. Its still iconic, allows some visual variation and best of all lets me pick gear for them to wear on the basis of functionality without having to worry about how it impacts their visuals. Given a choice between fashion and function, I greatly prefer systems that keep them separated.

Which is not to say they couldn't design outfits that fit their character yet address fan requests. For example one of Fenris' outfits might indeed include footwear. Or piratey outfit for Isabela that includes pants. They already did this for Miranda in ME2 by giving her an armored outfit for people who couldn't stand her cameltoed catsuits. (like myself).

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 29 août 2011 - 04:24 .