1027 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

I give respect to those who respect me.  Because like I stated, I've been here long enough to know that trying to put forth an argument with those who aren't putting forth that same effort for mine is a fool's errand, you set yourself up for trolling and insults.  Wait. . . .

You can quote me again, but I'm largely done with you.  Because you are no better than what you claim yourself to be, and you have proven it on multiple occasions.

Well, I'm glad you've decided that the answer to the problem of disrespectful, substanceless arguments and personal insults is to resort to equally disrespectful, substanceless arguments and personal insults. The BSN has been enriched by your enlightened methodology.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

I give respect to those who respect me.  Because like I stated, I've been here long enough to know that trying to put forth an argument with those who aren't putting forth that same effort for mine is a fool's errand, you set yourself up for trolling and insults.  Wait. . . .

You can quote me again, but I'm largely done with you.  Because you are no better than what you claim yourself to be, and you have proven it on multiple occasions.

Well, I'm glad you've decided that the answer to the problem of disrespectful, substanceless arguments and personal insults is to resort to equally disrespectful, substanceless arguments and personal insults. The BSN has been enriched by your enlightened methodology.

....aren't you kind of doing the same right now?

[Harid]

leonia42 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You're agreeing with someone that put Isabela in leopard print and pink? Well, that's probably my cue to not take the modding community seriously. Let me know when you guys make some useful mods.

And yet you missed the point she has been making...it's about choice. Unless you are standing over her shoulder while she plays what should you care what color or style outfit she puts her companions in? *facepalm*

You guys and your toggles.

Dragon Age isn't about YOUR choices, it's about Hawke.. the Warden.. their companions, Thedas.. Those characters that you're dressing up in unrealistic ways? They have feelings and style preferences. They aren't your Barbie dolls to do with as you please. It's not your story, they're not your "blank canvas" to do with as you see fit. 

Ya'll are lucky you got a toolset with DA:O and given the type of mods that were made with it, is it not obvious why the devs are reluctant to give you the same free reign in DA2?

Have you no respect for Bioware's products or is everything all about you?

I don't have respect for Bioware's products, no.  I am a customer, they should be making concessions to me, not vice versa.  Those people who are party members don't mind if I take up a certain spec or completely ignore theirs.  Those people don't mind if I don't take up their personal quests or do.  Those people don't mind what specs I take despite the fact certain ones may be diametrically opposed to their view points.

Bioware's "They are their own people" excuse is largely bull****.  People who are their own people would be more proactive than the companions we get in Bioware games.  They would find solutions to their own problems, they would choose their own stats and specs, they would not be controllable by us in anyway, they'd just be side NPC's like Donald and Goofy in say the Kingdom Hearts series.

But they aren't.  We control them, we tell them what to do, as we are not Hawke.  This is  our blank canvas to control.  That is the point in party based rpgs; you are not a character, you are the  party.  And as the party, I should have the option to have my party wear whatever I have chosen my party members to wear if it will make my party run to it's utmost.

Part of that choice falls to looks.  I don't care about iconic looks.  Morrigan had an iconic look despite you putting her in anything you wanted up to full plate.  That should tell them that all they need for an iconic look is one set of iconic armor, instead of telling them to emulate Dragon Age 2's system that is largely reviled off of these forums.  One of the many things I liked WRPG's for is not being stuck in what ever horrible costume the devs thought looked cool, something I largely have to deal with in most rpgs.  If my main character was wearing some stupid breastplate that exposed his abdomen, I could change that to whatever I wished because it's stupid to expose your abdomen when you are wearing armor.  What they think looks good and what I think look good are two different things, and given the choice, what I think looks good wins in my head every time.

Do you know what should make a companion 'iconic'?  Being written well enough that despite what you put them in, people still know who the character is.  Changing armor doesn't change the character.  Bioware needs to learn this.

Modifié par Harid, 29 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[RagingCyclone]

leonia42 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You're agreeing with someone that put Isabela in leopard print and pink? Well, that's probably my cue to not take the modding community seriously. Let me know when you guys make some useful mods.

And yet you missed the point she has been making...it's about choice. Unless you are standing over her shoulder while she plays what should you care what color or style outfit she puts her companions in? *facepalm*

You guys and your toggles.

Dragon Age isn't about YOUR choices, it's about Hawke.. the Warden.. their companions, Thedas.. Those characters that you're dressing up in unrealistic ways? They have feelings and style preferences. They aren't your Barbie dolls to do with as you please. It's not your story, they're not your "blank canvas" to do with as you see fit. 

Ya'll are lucky you got a toolset with DA:O and given the type of mods that were made with it, is it not obvious why the devs are reluctant to give you the same free reign in DA2?

Have you no respect for Bioware's products or is everything all about you?

If it's not also the player's story, then why make it a game? Why just not make a movie and be done with it? Why have the options to make decisions if it's not the player's story to mold a part of? Why have a cutomizable character that you can change the appearance? If you are one of those that likes to play an interactive movie and mash buttons, that's your way of playing, but also know that it's not everyone's way of playing. I for one changed clothing appearances to fit he story I am playing. Clothing while traveling in Ferelden in DAO to blend in since Loghain had put a bounty on the wardens. Is that playing Barbie? I took it as immersing myself more into the game I was playing. My style preference may not be the same as the person who posted the pics, but I do understand and agree where she is coming from. 

[Nurot]

I like the new system. Now, can I wish for one or more optional iconic appearances for the PC? Or even better, a possibility to "lock" your favorite look (from your favorite armor combination).

My favorite armors and weapons in DA2 are always too outdated when I find them. And the items with good stats mostly look very boring. I have too exchange the cool ones for the boring ones, since I don't want to play on casual or normal..

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

....aren't you kind of doing the same right now?

Excuse me, I am being snide and passive-aggressive. I've certainly yet to insult anyone personally. You can have that and substance :innocent:

[Leonia]

I'm not sure where people got the impression that Bioware is Bethesda becaues that's how they get treated around here "Why don't we have unlimited customisation?" "Because we're trying to tell a specific story." "But what about my story?" "It's not your story!" "Then make a movie!" "Then you'd complain you couldn't interact with it!" "You devs are all moddist!" "Why do we even bother.."

[Sowtaaw]

Whats wrong with persuade the companions to wear something else? You are changing just the armor the personality of the companion.will remain the same.

[Leonia]

Filament wrote...

@Leonia Clearly the devs do have an interest in giving the player control over the companion to varying "unnatural" extents, considering that I can control them at all rather than them being uncontrollable henchmen ala NWN. Considering that Mike Laidlaw said in his own post about how he'd like to implement a "wardrobe" function to "play dress-up." Perhaps they don't want to give us control to the extent of full customization of what the companions wear, fair enough, but to say wanting more control is tantamount to having no "respect for Bioware's product" isn't really fair. Maybe if we had no such control to begin with. But even then, I'm not really buying it.

There is a limit to the amount of control just as there is a limit to just how much one can RP as Hawke (or the Warden really). The complaints are about the limits. Without limits, how would it be possible for Bioware's message to get through? I'm sure we'll be seeing similar complaints with TOR when people realise it's not their story or personal experience to do with as they like.

I think, given the OP, Laidlaw is fairly aware of both sides of the issue and has come to a welcoming compromise.. the thing about compromise is it's not going to completely satisfy everyone but it's generally better than the alternatives. Is this not an attempt being made to consider what the fans want and try to accomodate it? Let's see how it works out (if it even works out this way, nothing is set in stone yet) before we get too bent out of shape over it.

Modifié par leonia42, 29 août 2011 - 05:43 .

[ipgd]

Fandango9641 wrote...

No, no it really doesn’t. Not at all. Not even a little bit. You want your iconic armour and unique body armour models and I’m advocating the extra provision of choice. Extra meaning ancillary....additional...BEYOND! Good grief.

But it won't be a matter of "beyond". It won't exist in a vacuum. It will affect how they design the visual character concepts and the game's reactivity to those designs. They will be constrained entirely to clothing/armor differentials because the character will have to have a generic body model in order to be consistent with the body model they would have to have with even an ancillary equipable armor system. Like, again, Morrigan, whose unique model is built entirely off of the generic body model. And I care way more about unique body models than I do the armor that goes over it.

[Harid]

leonia42 wrote...

Filament wrote...

@Leonia Clearly the devs do have an interest in giving the player control over the companion to varying "unnatural" extents, considering that I can control them at all rather than them being uncontrollable henchmen ala NWN. Considering that Mike Laidlaw said in his own post about how he'd like to implement a "wardrobe" function to "play dress-up." Perhaps they don't want to give us control to the extent of full customization of what the companions wear, fair enough, but to say wanting more control is tantamount to having no "respect for Bioware's product" isn't really fair. Maybe if we had no such control to begin with. But even then, I'm not really buying it.

There is a limit to the amount of control just as there is a limit to just how much one can RP as Hawke (or the Warden really). The complaints are about the limits. Without limits, how would it be possible for Bioware's message to get through? I'm sure we'll be seeing similar complaints with TOR when people realise it's not their story or personal experience to do with as they like. I think given the OP, Laidlaw is fairly aware of both sides of the issue and has come to a welcome compromise.. the thing about compromise is it's not going to completely satisfy everyone but it's generally better than the alternatives. Is this not an attempt being made to consider what the fans want and try to accomodate it?

No, this kind of feels like "We liked it our way, deal with it."

Which is fine, I guess, but I will deal with it by not buying their products.

Modifié par Harid, 29 août 2011 - 05:44 .

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

No, this kind of feels like "We liked it our way, deal with it."

If it weren't for this line of thinking, there would only be one kind of game and it sure as hell wouldn't be aimed at our tiny niche demographic. They do what they do because they want to make the games they want to make, and that is the only reason Dragon Age exists at all. The price of this is sometimes having them not do everything you want specifically to please you or your group.

[esper]

Harid wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Filament wrote...

@Leonia Clearly the devs do have an interest in giving the player control over the companion to varying "unnatural" extents, considering that I can control them at all rather than them being uncontrollable henchmen ala NWN. Considering that Mike Laidlaw said in his own post about how he'd like to implement a "wardrobe" function to "play dress-up." Perhaps they don't want to give us control to the extent of full customization of what the companions wear, fair enough, but to say wanting more control is tantamount to having no "respect for Bioware's product" isn't really fair. Maybe if we had no such control to begin with. But even then, I'm not really buying it.

There is a limit to the amount of control just as there is a limit to just how much one can RP as Hawke (or the Warden really). The complaints are about the limits. Without limits, how would it be possible for Bioware's message to get through? I'm sure we'll be seeing similar complaints with TOR when people realise it's not their story or personal experience to do with as they like. I think given the OP, Laidlaw is fairly aware of both sides of the issue and has come to a welcome compromise.. the thing about compromise is it's not going to completely satisfy everyone but it's generally better than the alternatives. Is this not an attempt being made to consider what the fans want and try to accomodate it?

No, this kind of feels like "We liked it our way, deal with it."

Which is fine, I guess, but I will deal with it by not buying their products.

If you are not going to buy their products why are you in the forums? If you hate biowares style of doing thing so much I advise you to play Oblivion and wait for Skyrim. This is obviously not your kind of game so perhaps you should just sit dragon age out. 

I appluad Laidlaw and co. for coming up with an compromise considering how diveded the the fanbase in the forum was with this. It is a good compromise. People who wants to equiq the loot gets to do that, and people who cares about the uniqe body models gets to keep them - I think it is a good compromise. between a divided fanbase.   

[Sowtaaw]

What the message bioware was trying get out?

[rak72]

leonia42 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You're agreeing with someone that put Isabela in leopard print and pink? Well, that's probably my cue to not take the modding community seriously. Let me know when you guys make some useful mods.

And yet you missed the point she has been making...it's about choice. Unless you are standing over her shoulder while she plays what should you care what color or style outfit she puts her companions in? *facepalm*

You guys and your toggles.

Dragon Age isn't about YOUR choices, it's about Hawke.. the Warden.. their companions, Thedas.. Those characters that you're dressing up in unrealistic ways? They have feelings and style preferences. They aren't your Barbie dolls to do with as you please. It's not your story, they're not your "blank canvas" to do with as you see fit. 

Ya'll are lucky you got a toolset with DA:O and given the type of mods that were made with it, is it not obvious why the devs are reluctant to give you the same free reign in DA2?

Have you no respect for Bioware's products or is everything all about you?

If I want to watch a movie, I'll rent one. This is a ROLE playing game.  I want to play MY game and not watch what   Bioware can do with their cinematics.

[Leonia]

Sowtaaw wrote...

What the message bioware was trying get out?

You'll never know if you're trying to ignore it.

@Filament: I don't have qualms with your idea, I only think it might be more resource-intensive to accomodate each and every shape of possible companion (and I do hope we get the option to play as other races in the future).

However, much of the complaining here is indeed about a restriction on customisation because somehow people feel entitled to such a concept even though VERY FEW Bioware games have a history of allowing this sort of control from the player.

In DA:O we had more control over what companions wore but the options were limited and boring so it hardly mattered, plus there is the issue of characters sharing models (as ipgd keeps mentioning) and that wasn't really a great way to approach the concept either.

Modifié par leonia42, 29 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

No, this kind of feels like "We liked it our way, deal with it."

If it weren't for this line of thinking, there would only be one kind of game and it sure as hell wouldn't be aimed at our tiny niche demographic. They do what they do because they want to make the games they want to make, and that is the only reason Dragon Age exists at all. The price of this is sometimes having them not do everything you want specifically to please you or your group.

Bioware has made it clear that they aren't making games for our little niche demographic so. . .yeah?

Dragon Age exists because Bioware did not want to deal with the restrictions they had to deal with while making Baldur's Gate under the Forgotten Realms property.

This isn't a concession they aren't making to please my 'group.'  This is something they have had in every RPG they've made since BG1, and something they are taking away for no particularly good reason.

Every demographic is niche to Call of Duty.  I am fine with RPG's being a niche genre.  I am not fine with devs removing features they had in prior games for something that doesn't matter to me, the "iconic look."

[Harid]

esper wrote...

Harid wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Filament wrote...

@Leonia Clearly the devs do have an interest in giving the player control over the companion to varying "unnatural" extents, considering that I can control them at all rather than them being uncontrollable henchmen ala NWN. Considering that Mike Laidlaw said in his own post about how he'd like to implement a "wardrobe" function to "play dress-up." Perhaps they don't want to give us control to the extent of full customization of what the companions wear, fair enough, but to say wanting more control is tantamount to having no "respect for Bioware's product" isn't really fair. Maybe if we had no such control to begin with. But even then, I'm not really buying it.

There is a limit to the amount of control just as there is a limit to just how much one can RP as Hawke (or the Warden really). The complaints are about the limits. Without limits, how would it be possible for Bioware's message to get through? I'm sure we'll be seeing similar complaints with TOR when people realise it's not their story or personal experience to do with as they like. I think given the OP, Laidlaw is fairly aware of both sides of the issue and has come to a welcome compromise.. the thing about compromise is it's not going to completely satisfy everyone but it's generally better than the alternatives. Is this not an attempt being made to consider what the fans want and try to accomodate it?

No, this kind of feels like "We liked it our way, deal with it."

Which is fine, I guess, but I will deal with it by not buying their products.

If you are not going to buy their products why are you in the forums? If you hate biowares style of doing thing so much I advise you to play Oblivion and wait for Skyrim. This is obviously not your kind of game so perhaps you should just sit dragon age out. 

I appluad Laidlaw and co. for coming up with an compromise considering how diveded the the fanbase in the forum was with this. It is a good compromise. People who wants to equiq the loot gets to do that, and people who cares about the uniqe body models gets to keep them - I think it is a good compromise. between a divided fanbase.   

I started playing WRPG's thanks to Bioware, and I'd like to continue to do so.  Even though this gen is great for WRPG's on consoles, many are not released on consoles or are unplayble on consoles, and I do thank Bioware for making their games for consoles.  However, If they are going to continue down a path I am not behind, I am going to let them know this every step of the way, and if they then choose this path anyway. . .I am not going to buy the product.  Is that understood?

Play Skyrim. . . ****ing Bioware defense force. . .really?  Like I can't do both?

Modifié par Harid, 29 août 2011 - 06:03 .

[Apollo Starflare]

It still surprises me that for some players this is dealbreaker. I mean, it's an interesting point of debate, and an important this for BioWare to get as 'right' as possible, however even if I hated how companions were dressed it wouldn't prevent me from getting the game if I liked the rest of it.

Sure, I know some people here may be annoyed at the direction DA2 took in general, in which case that's fair enough? Straw that broke the camel's back and all that. But otherwise I'd just focus on enjoying the aspects of BioWare games I still love and ignore something like this.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

This isn't a concession they aren't making to please my 'group.'  This is something they have had in every RPG they've made since BG1, and something they are taking away for no particularly good reason.

Every demographic is niche to Call of Duty.  I am fine with RPG's being a niche genre.  I am not fine with devs removing features they had in prior games for something that doesn't matter to me, the "iconic look."

They, and other supporters of the unique companion armors, have explained the multitude of reasons why they decided to do this. That these reasons do not matter to you personally does not mean they are not reasons that exist. The quantity of reasons is well above 'no'.

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of ol' flannel to me ipgd. Care to try again (and this time explain why the extra provision of choice is impossible)?

... because of what I said? Because they can't make the game substantially reactive to a variable that may not always be true? If there were a state in which Jack and Fenris's tattoos had to magically disappear to conform to a generic body model they would have never been designed with tattoos in the first place. The kind of storytelling that can be done through visual designs and conventions like bodily tattoos is personally important to me.