1027 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Harid wrote...

esper wrote...

Harid wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Filament wrote...

@Leonia Clearly the devs do have an interest in giving the player control over the companion to varying "unnatural" extents, considering that I can control them at all rather than them being uncontrollable henchmen ala NWN. Considering that Mike Laidlaw said in his own post about how he'd like to implement a "wardrobe" function to "play dress-up." Perhaps they don't want to give us control to the extent of full customization of what the companions wear, fair enough, but to say wanting more control is tantamount to having no "respect for Bioware's product" isn't really fair. Maybe if we had no such control to begin with. But even then, I'm not really buying it.

There is a limit to the amount of control just as there is a limit to just how much one can RP as Hawke (or the Warden really). The complaints are about the limits. Without limits, how would it be possible for Bioware's message to get through? I'm sure we'll be seeing similar complaints with TOR when people realise it's not their story or personal experience to do with as they like. I think given the OP, Laidlaw is fairly aware of both sides of the issue and has come to a welcome compromise.. the thing about compromise is it's not going to completely satisfy everyone but it's generally better than the alternatives. Is this not an attempt being made to consider what the fans want and try to accomodate it?

No, this kind of feels like "We liked it our way, deal with it."

Which is fine, I guess, but I will deal with it by not buying their products.

If you are not going to buy their products why are you in the forums? If you hate biowares style of doing thing so much I advise you to play Oblivion and wait for Skyrim. This is obviously not your kind of game so perhaps you should just sit dragon age out. 

I appluad Laidlaw and co. for coming up with an compromise considering how diveded the the fanbase in the forum was with this. It is a good compromise. People who wants to equiq the loot gets to do that, and people who cares about the uniqe body models gets to keep them - I think it is a good compromise. between a divided fanbase.   

I started playing WRPG's thanks to Bioware, and I'd like to continue to do so.  Even though this gen is great for WRPG's on consoles, many are not released on consoles or are unplayble on consoles, and I do thank Bioware for making their games for consoles.  However, If they are going to continue down a path I am not behind, I am going to let them know this every step of the way, and if they then choose this path anyway. . .I am not going to buy the product.  Is that understood?

But by screaming loudly you are not going to accomplice anything. Which is what you are doing now. Laidlaw offer a compromise which is good, but you are not even going to give it a chance. The way you speak can easily be interprented like if I don't get it my way I am going to act like the Maker and unleashed the blight on us all.

Personally I don't even like the idea of looting armour from corspes because that basically means that you take the time to stop and strip a dead body - one whose armour is realisticlly not even going to fit you. I would much rather prefer that we gathered materials like ore and silk or whatever and then gave them to and armourer or and craftsman who would then be able to make outfits for everyone in the game -

That's what I would like. I doubt I would ever see it, but if I keep presenting my idea politely there is a bigger chance that the devs would take me seriously than if I said I hate you and I will never buy one of your games again.

[Atakuma]

I would prefer it if they went back to origin's armor system. Clearly that isn't going to happen, however Bioware are willing to offer a compromise. I get something I want with full stat customization, and they get something they want with iconic appearances. I swear with the reaction this is getting, you'd think this was somehow a step backward from DA2.

[Sowtaaw]

Thanks leonia42 i finally get the message!
the message is ''All yours choices belong to us'' correct?

[Leonia]

Sowtaaw wrote...

Thanks leonia42 i finally get the message!
the message is ''All yours choices belong to us'' correct?

I like this human, he understands!

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

This isn't a concession they aren't making to please my 'group.'  This is something they have had in every RPG they've made since BG1, and something they are taking away for no particularly good reason.

Every demographic is niche to Call of Duty.  I am fine with RPG's being a niche genre.  I am not fine with devs removing features they had in prior games for something that doesn't matter to me, the "iconic look."

They, and other supporters of the unique companion armors, have explained the multitude of reasons why they decided to do this. That these reasons do not matter to you personally does not mean they are not reasons that exist. The quantity of reasons is well above 'no'.

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of ol' flannel to me ipgd. Care to try again (and this time explain why the extra provision of choice is impossible)?

... because of what I said? Because they can't make the game substantially reactive to a variable that may not always be true? If there were a state in which Jack and Fenris's tattoos had to magically disappear to conform to a generic body model they would have never been designed with tattoos in the first place. The kind of storytelling that can be done through visual designs and conventions like bodily tattoos is personally important to me.

I don't care about body shapes.  You care about body shapes.  There is no where for this argument to go.

People are largely fine with the Morrigan approach, you can leave the iconic looks to those who do care about iconic looks and allow us to gear companions for those who do care about gearing companions.  Your reason for not wanting that is not good enough to me, tattoos. . .I don't really care and it wouldn't be an issue to you because you wouldn't be gearing your companions, so. . .why are you wasting time quoting me?

This is something they could of fixed a long time ago by allowing differing body types from the get go.

[Leonia]

Harid wrote...

This is something they could of fixed a long time ago by allowing differing body types from the get go.

Got a time machine?

[Harid]

leonia42 wrote...

Harid wrote...

This is something they could of fixed a long time ago by allowing differing body types from the get go.

Got a time machine?

It was something requested when they were making origins.  Then DA2.  They have not stated that it's impossible because of the engine, they haven't stated anything about it at all, actually.  They just don't implement it.

But continue being flippant.  This is why I don't bother with people who type like this in the first place.

Modifié par Harid, 29 août 2011 - 06:19 .

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

I don't care about body shapes.  You care about body shapes.  There is no where for this argument to go.

So why is what you want inherently more important than what I want, or what anyone else wants, or what Bioware wants?

People are largely fine with the Morrigan approach

What people? You mean all of the people that are you?

why are you wasting time quoting me?

Because I am posting in this thread having a discussion and you are posting in this thread having a discussion so I am replying to your posts in this discussion. If you don't want to have a discussion with the people currently participating in this discussion you can stop participating in the discussion.

This is something they could of fixed a long time ago by allowing differing body types from the get go.

Any change to the default body model at all basically entails turning the companion into his or her very own "race". If they'd done this in DAO, they would have had to make a unique model of every single piece of armor for every single companion, in addition to fitting that armor to each race and sex the player can be. Doing the latter is enough work by itself; I'm sure you could imagine how much time it would take up if they had to add a separate Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran, Wynne, Loghain and Oghren pass on top of all of that. Which is not a method I would be opposed to hypothetically, but it's so resource intensive that it isn't really realistic to expect.

[sevalaricgirl]

Here's my problem. Isabela was WAY under dressed for going with my Hawke anywhere. Of course this is a game but it breaks immersion to have breasts hanging out everywhere especially with archers and rogues inflicting damage. I hope the dev team takes that into consideration for DA3. Everyone else was dressed fine. I didn't have a problem with how Varrick was dressed, Fenris got a mod, Merrill and Anders were fine. Sebastian got a mod only because I wanted to completely make him over. I understand the artwork is going to be similar, but I hope the artists focus on not making all the characters ugly. The best looking character in the game was Varrick. I'd rather see attractive companions with modest clothing than what we got in DA2. I modded every every companion except Varrick.

BTW, I put armor on Morrigan.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 29 août 2011 - 06:26 .

[Alyka]

Thank you for the heads up Mr. Laidlaw. I am glad that the devs are taking our feedback into consideration.
I like the idea of companions having unique armor, yet we can equip them with pieces that we find in our travels to enhance their abilities. I do,however,hope that their equipment appearance changes slightly (eg;a pair of pants paired with the corset-tunic for Isabella) besides color,throughout the course of gameplay.

Next order of business; Getting rid of that pesky armor rating system denoted by stars.

[Maconbar]

Harid wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

This isn't a concession they aren't making to please my 'group.'  This is something they have had in every RPG they've made since BG1, and something they are taking away for no particularly good reason.

Every demographic is niche to Call of Duty.  I am fine with RPG's being a niche genre.  I am not fine with devs removing features they had in prior games for something that doesn't matter to me, the "iconic look."

They, and other supporters of the unique companion armors, have explained the multitude of reasons why they decided to do this. That these reasons do not matter to you personally does not mean they are not reasons that exist. The quantity of reasons is well above 'no'.

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of ol' flannel to me ipgd. Care to try again (and this time explain why the extra provision of choice is impossible)?

... because of what I said? Because they can't make the game substantially reactive to a variable that may not always be true? If there were a state in which Jack and Fenris's tattoos had to magically disappear to conform to a generic body model they would have never been designed with tattoos in the first place. The kind of storytelling that can be done through visual designs and conventions like bodily tattoos is personally important to me.

I don't care about body shapes.  You care about body shapes.  There is no where for this argument to go.

People are largely fine with the Morrigan approach, you can leave the iconic looks to those who do care about iconic looks and allow us to gear companions for those who do care about gearing companions.  Your reason for not wanting that is not good enough to me, tattoos. . .I don't really care and it wouldn't be an issue to you because you wouldn't be gearing your companions, so. . .why are you wasting time quoting me?

This is something they could of fixed a long time ago by allowing differing body types from the get go.

Understood. But are the changes mentioned in the OP an improvement to DA:2?

[esper]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Here's my problem. Isabela was WAY under dressed for going with my Hawke anywhere. Of course this is a game but it breaks immersion to have breasts hanging out everywhere especially with archers and rogues inflicting damage. I hope the dev team takes that into consideration for DA3. Everyone else was dressed fine. I didn't have a problem with how Varrick was dressed, Fenris got a mod, Merrill and Anders were fine. Sebastian got a mod only because I wanted to completely make him over. I understand the artwork is going to be similar, but I hope the artists focus on not making all the characters ugly. The best looking character in the game was Varrick. I'd rather see attractive companions with modest clothing than what we got in DA2. I modded every every companion except Varrick.

BTW, I put armor on Morrigan.

But the problem you have there is a problem with a core part of Isabella's personality... which is fine. You are not forced to like everyone. As for Isabella, I think she is dressed to sea battles. Light clothes that she can move around in freely and of course which show every thing of her she wants to show because she is Isabella. 

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

I don't care about body shapes.  You care about body shapes.  There is no where for this argument to go.

So why is what you want inherently more important than what I want, or what anyone else wants, or what Bioware wants?

People are largely fine with the Morrigan approach

What people? You mean all of the people that are you?

why are you wasting time quoting me?

Because I am posting in this thread having a discussion and you are posting in this thread having a discussion so I am replying to your posts in this discussion. If you don't want to have a discussion with the people currently participating in this discussion you can stop participating in the discussion.

This is something they could of fixed a long time ago by allowing differing body types from the get go.

Any change to the default body model at all basically entails turning the companion into his or her very own "race". If they'd done this in DAO, they would have had to make a unique model of every single piece of armor for every single companion, in addition to fitting that armor to each race and sex the player can be. Doing the latter is enough work by itself; I'm sure you could imagine how much time it would take up if they had to add a separate Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran, Wynne, Loghain and Oghren pass on top of all of that. Which is not a method I would be opposed to hypothetically, but it's so resource intensive that it isn't really realistic to expect.

I've stated I don't care what Bioware wants already, and I don't care what you want if you are in league with what Bioware wants on the issue.  I want what I have gotten in most Bioware games, the ability to gear what my companions wear.  I am not going to support them rolling back of features due to something I could not care less about, an iconic look.  This argument is going in circles. . .so that is what I mean by why are you quoting me.  You believe in Bioware removing features because of body shape, I don't care about body shape if I regain the ability to make my companions look how ever I want them to look, neither of us are going to change each others minds, us arguing is largely pointless.  You can belittle the point that I am not the only person who is fine with the Morrigan approach, when there are people on this page that are fine with it, and people throughout this thread that are fine with it, but we will have to agree to disagree, because none of us will budge on the issue.

As for your unique model statement. . .where did you get that from, exactly?  Because if that is the case, that is a issue with their horrible engine, and they would probably help themselves by changing it to a new one.

[Harid]

esper wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Here's my problem. Isabela was WAY under dressed for going with my Hawke anywhere. Of course this is a game but it breaks immersion to have breasts hanging out everywhere especially with archers and rogues inflicting damage. I hope the dev team takes that into consideration for DA3. Everyone else was dressed fine. I didn't have a problem with how Varrick was dressed, Fenris got a mod, Merrill and Anders were fine. Sebastian got a mod only because I wanted to completely make him over. I understand the artwork is going to be similar, but I hope the artists focus on not making all the characters ugly. The best looking character in the game was Varrick. I'd rather see attractive companions with modest clothing than what we got in DA2. I modded every every companion except Varrick.

BTW, I put armor on Morrigan.

But the problem you have there is a problem with a core part of Isabella's personality... which is fine. You are not forced to like everyone. As for Isabella, I think she is dressed to sea battles. Light clothes that she can move around in freely and of course which show every thing of her she wants to show because she is Isabella. 

See the thing is, she's not on a boat, she's not on the ocean regularly, and she no longer owns a boat for something like 7 years.  Not to mention we've already seen her wearing regular armor in Origins.

[Harid]

Maconbar wrote...

Harid wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

This isn't a concession they aren't making to please my 'group.'  This is something they have had in every RPG they've made since BG1, and something they are taking away for no particularly good reason.

Every demographic is niche to Call of Duty.  I am fine with RPG's being a niche genre.  I am not fine with devs removing features they had in prior games for something that doesn't matter to me, the "iconic look."

They, and other supporters of the unique companion armors, have explained the multitude of reasons why they decided to do this. That these reasons do not matter to you personally does not mean they are not reasons that exist. The quantity of reasons is well above 'no'.

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of ol' flannel to me ipgd. Care to try again (and this time explain why the extra provision of choice is impossible)?

... because of what I said? Because they can't make the game substantially reactive to a variable that may not always be true? If there were a state in which Jack and Fenris's tattoos had to magically disappear to conform to a generic body model they would have never been designed with tattoos in the first place. The kind of storytelling that can be done through visual designs and conventions like bodily tattoos is personally important to me.

I don't care about body shapes.  You care about body shapes.  There is no where for this argument to go.

People are largely fine with the Morrigan approach, you can leave the iconic looks to those who do care about iconic looks and allow us to gear companions for those who do care about gearing companions.  Your reason for not wanting that is not good enough to me, tattoos. . .I don't really care and it wouldn't be an issue to you because you wouldn't be gearing your companions, so. . .why are you wasting time quoting me?

This is something they could of fixed a long time ago by allowing differing body types from the get go.

Understood. But are the changes mentioned in the OP an improvement to DA:2?

I've never put forth this question.  I don't care if it's better than DA:2.  It's worse than DA:O.  That is the issue I have.

[ipgd]

Fandango9641 wrote...

I can acknowledge and respect what is important to you with little or no effort ipgd, why do you appear to have such trouble reciprocating?

I'm pretty sure I've acknowledged repeatedly that I am not all people and I do not believe that all people share my opinions. What exactly is the issue?

Technically, and for all your guff, there exists no reason why Bioware couldn’t do the work to please fans on both sides of this particular divide. That they might not want to do so is another matter entirely, though perhaps that’s best left for another thread.

You said that the method you propose would be a compromise that would satisfy all parties and that we "literally lose nothing". As a member of an opposing party, someone with intimate knowledge of what said opposing party's opinions are by virtue of having those opinions, I am informing you that your proposed compromise is not, in fact, satisfactory to all parties. There are issues of implementation with the solution you offer that do indeed result in us "losing something". That they are not problems you personally care about does not mean these are problems that do not exist for people who are not you. You are free to advocate a solution that is not fully satisfactory to all parties, but suggesting that a solution that is not fully satisfactory to all parties is fully satisfactory to all parties is not accurate.

[tfive24]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

It still surprises me that for some players this is dealbreaker. I mean, it's an interesting point of debate, and an important this for BioWare to get as 'right' as possible, however even if I hated how companions were dressed it wouldn't prevent me from getting the game if I liked the rest of it.

Sure, I know some people here may be annoyed at the direction DA2 took in general, in which case that's fair enough? Straw that broke the camel's back and all that. But otherwise I'd just focus on enjoying the aspects of BioWare games I still love and ignore something like this.

Yes, this is a deal breaker to me. I don't want to watch a video game. the cinematic route they are taking is limit the game play for me. I play rpg for being to play the game in different ways: from choosing the different types of dialog, to play styles and to change the look of my characters and companions. 

The iconic look is BS. the iconic look doesn't work if the character has a personality. Drake from Uncharted doesn't have a iconic look, but he's iconic because of his personality. Master Chief has an iconic look due the fact he doesn't talk a lot or have a great personality. 

[esper]

Harid wrote...

esper wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Here's my problem. Isabela was WAY under dressed for going with my Hawke anywhere. Of course this is a game but it breaks immersion to have breasts hanging out everywhere especially with archers and rogues inflicting damage. I hope the dev team takes that into consideration for DA3. Everyone else was dressed fine. I didn't have a problem with how Varrick was dressed, Fenris got a mod, Merrill and Anders were fine. Sebastian got a mod only because I wanted to completely make him over. I understand the artwork is going to be similar, but I hope the artists focus on not making all the characters ugly. The best looking character in the game was Varrick. I'd rather see attractive companions with modest clothing than what we got in DA2. I modded every every companion except Varrick.

BTW, I put armor on Morrigan.

But the problem you have there is a problem with a core part of Isabella's personality... which is fine. You are not forced to like everyone. As for Isabella, I think she is dressed to sea battles. Light clothes that she can move around in freely and of course which show every thing of her she wants to show because she is Isabella. 

See the thing is, she's not on a boat, she's not on the ocean regularly, and she no longer owns a boat for something like 7 years.  Not to mention we've already seen her wearing regular armor in Origins.

She didn't even have the same skin tone in da:o. You can't count on that - besides everyone wore the same thing in da:o.
And I know that Isabella is not on a boat anymore, but that does not change the part that she properly wants to be a captain again and is still identified as a raider. Besides I am fairly certain that she wants to be underdressed, perhaps not the wisest choice, but it is hers to make as she is not my character.
  

[Harid]

esper wrote...

Harid wrote...

esper wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Here's my problem. Isabela was WAY under dressed for going with my Hawke anywhere. Of course this is a game but it breaks immersion to have breasts hanging out everywhere especially with archers and rogues inflicting damage. I hope the dev team takes that into consideration for DA3. Everyone else was dressed fine. I didn't have a problem with how Varrick was dressed, Fenris got a mod, Merrill and Anders were fine. Sebastian got a mod only because I wanted to completely make him over. I understand the artwork is going to be similar, but I hope the artists focus on not making all the characters ugly. The best looking character in the game was Varrick. I'd rather see attractive companions with modest clothing than what we got in DA2. I modded every every companion except Varrick.

BTW, I put armor on Morrigan.

But the problem you have there is a problem with a core part of Isabella's personality... which is fine. You are not forced to like everyone. As for Isabella, I think she is dressed to sea battles. Light clothes that she can move around in freely and of course which show every thing of her she wants to show because she is Isabella. 

See the thing is, she's not on a boat, she's not on the ocean regularly, and she no longer owns a boat for something like 7 years.  Not to mention we've already seen her wearing regular armor in Origins.

She didn't even have the same skin tone in da:o. You can't count on that - besides everyone wore the same thing in da:o.
And I know that Isabella is not on a boat anymore, but that does not change the part that she properly wants to be a captain again and is still identified as a raider. Besides I am fairly certain that she wants to be underdressed, perhaps not the wisest choice, but it is hers to make as she is not my character.
  

She actually did.  She had the second darkest skin tone on the scale in Dragon Age Origins, which was pretty much as black as you were going to be in that game, it's the same skin tone my avatar has right now.

I don't care if Isabella dressed that way on a boat.  She wasn't on a bloody boat, and not having a boat was part of the character.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

As for your unique model statement. . .where did you get that from, exactly?  Because if that is the case, that is a issue with their horrible engine, and they would probably help themselves by changing it to a new one.

Because that's how it works? They have to fit every model to each race. They only do it with one type of armor deformation per race because all members of that race are physically homogenous below the neck. If they introduce any significant divergences from that base racial model they have to refit the armor to the new body, because it is different from the base body the armor is originally designed to fit.

It's either that or reduce all of the armor to largely form-fitting, extremely low poly models with low res textures and use Sims-style "body sliders".

[mesmerizedish]

I'M ON A BOAT!

I'M ON A BOAT!

EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME, 'CAUSE I'M SAILIN' ON A BOAT.

[RagingCyclone]

esper wrote...

Harid wrote...

esper wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Here's my problem. Isabela was WAY under dressed for going with my Hawke anywhere. Of course this is a game but it breaks immersion to have breasts hanging out everywhere especially with archers and rogues inflicting damage. I hope the dev team takes that into consideration for DA3. Everyone else was dressed fine. I didn't have a problem with how Varrick was dressed, Fenris got a mod, Merrill and Anders were fine. Sebastian got a mod only because I wanted to completely make him over. I understand the artwork is going to be similar, but I hope the artists focus on not making all the characters ugly. The best looking character in the game was Varrick. I'd rather see attractive companions with modest clothing than what we got in DA2. I modded every every companion except Varrick.

BTW, I put armor on Morrigan.

But the problem you have there is a problem with a core part of Isabella's personality... which is fine. You are not forced to like everyone. As for Isabella, I think she is dressed to sea battles. Light clothes that she can move around in freely and of course which show every thing of her she wants to show because she is Isabella. 

See the thing is, she's not on a boat, she's not on the ocean regularly, and she no longer owns a boat for something like 7 years.  Not to mention we've already seen her wearing regular armor in Origins.

She didn't even have the same skin tone in da:o. You can't count on that - besides everyone wore the same thing in da:o.
And I know that Isabella is not on a boat anymore, but that does not change the part that she properly wants to be a captain again and is still identified as a raider. Besides I am fairly certain that she wants to be underdressed, perhaps not the wisest choice, but it is hers to make as she is not my character.
  

While I agree about Izzy for the most part, there still part of me that thinks she would wear something different and more appropriate say when...I don't know...going into the Deep Roads? For someone like me that was an odd part about not being able to change a companions clothing. While I tend to, in Origins, keep Morrigan in her robes, when going into the Deep Roads she was wearing something some sort of armor for protection. I think Izzy would most likely do the same thing unless she was wanting to seduce darkspawn...which I doubt.

[ipgd]

tfive24 wrote...

Drake from Uncharted doesn't have a iconic look

Uh... yeah he does? I've never actually played Uncharted but I easily recognize his character on sight. "Iconic" does not mean "elaborate and flashy and HIGH FANTASY/SCI-FI CRAZY DESIGN!!!". A character can be [visually] iconic and still wear clothing or armor that is rather plain and functional (see: Indiana Jones).

Modifié par ipgd, 29 août 2011 - 06:46 .

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

As for your unique model statement. . .where did you get that from, exactly?  Because if that is the case, that is a issue with their horrible engine, and they would probably help themselves by changing it to a new one.

Because that's how it works? They have to fit every model to each race. They only do it with one type of armor deformation per race because all members of that race are physically homogenous below the neck. If they introduce any significant divergences from that base racial model they have to refit the armor to the new body, because it is different from the base body the armor is originally designed to fit.

It's either that or reduce all of the armor to largely form-fitting, extremely low poly models with low res textures and use Sims-style "body sliders".

When someone states "Where did you get that from", they generally mean "quote the dev you got that from."  Not "This is how it works in my head."  Understand?  I know they have to fit the model to each race.  You have to do that in every game with armor.  However I don't know the effort it entails to do so,  FFXI had a multitude of armor types for each race in the game, yet it took literally an hour to mod a piece of armor to a certain race provided it did not cause issues with that races skeleton, and this was without the mod kit.  Given the small amount of unique companions we get it doesn't seem any harder than what we got in Origins that I am not going to allow Bioware to file it under "cost intensive" without further discussion.

And I'd rather have a FFXI style armor set up than this iconic look bull**** we are getting today, sorry.

As I, and the above poster stated, if you write a character well enough, what they look like doesn't matter.

Modifié par Harid, 29 août 2011 - 06:49 .