1027 réponses à ce sujet

[willholt]

In Exile wrote...

Filament wrote...

Distinctive outfits could very well be one of the best outfits for your companions' default builds. They wouldn't have to be mediocre at all.

And what if they're not? Do I have to go **** myself because I want to build my characters a certain way and want iconic builds?

And it seems like "dress-up" is the new buzz word. It's a little condescending. And continues to be a bit hypocritical when that's exactly the functionality Laidlaw wants to add in the game himself in his design outline, just in a different way, and no one happy with the design is complaining about how silly that is.

It's only condescending in the same way that the "best" compromise being everything you want and throwing a bone to the other side is incredibly insulting. 

... err isn't that exactly what Bioware have done by deciding to impliment the system mentioned in the OP?... Everything the 'Iconics' wanted and a bone to the other side?

[Zanallen]

Calling it "dress-up" might be a little condescending, but that is essentially what it is. With stats removed from the equation, all you are fighting for is the ability to dress your companions in different outfits of your choosing. Playing dress-up.

[TheBlackBaron]

In Exile wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...
This would have been the best solution, imo. Have the "default" armor and weapons they come be unique in their appearance and level up along with them, and balance it so that it's serviceable and useful but not necessarily the best available for their class. Then have full-on stat and visual customziation, DA:O-style, for those that want to muck around with that.

NO. This is not the best solution. This is telling people that like iconic apperances, but also like to play on nightmare to go **** themselves. It's as simple as that. Either you abandon distinctive companions, have a brutal challenge with subpotimal armour, or lower the difficulty. 

It's the solution that gives you exactly what you want, but it's not the best solution. Whether what Mike proposes is a good compromise is up to the individual (this is, in fact, the system I wanted and support strongly, so this is giving me exactly what I want) but what you're offering is punishment.

Why not make the iconic armours the best gear in the game and then make every other item you find (that can change the apperance) significantly inferior? This is basically what you're suggesting for people who like unique apperances. 

Clearly I've struck a nerve here. You may think Mr. Laidlaw's proposed compromise is a good one, I do not, as it's basically telling people that want gear to change companion appearance to go **** themselves, as you got on your high horse about.

I didn't say to make them significantly inferior, I said to balance them so that it's capable gear but not necessarily the best. Make it the best and have other gear options be equal to it, I don't give a ****. You want to play on Nightmare? You'll have to make a choice then.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 30 août 2011 - 12:26 .

[Zanallen]

willholt wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Filament wrote...

Distinctive outfits could very well be one of the best outfits for your companions' default builds. They wouldn't have to be mediocre at all.

And what if they're not? Do I have to go **** myself because I want to build my characters a certain way and want iconic builds?

And it seems like "dress-up" is the new buzz word. It's a little condescending. And continues to be a bit hypocritical when that's exactly the functionality Laidlaw wants to add in the game himself in his design outline, just in a different way, and no one happy with the design is complaining about how silly that is.

It's only condescending in the same way that the "best" compromise being everything you want and throwing a bone to the other side is incredibly insulting. 

... err isn't that exactly what Bioware have done by deciding to impliment the system mentioned in the OP?... Everything the 'Iconics' wanted and a bone to the other side?

I don't consider full stat customization along with various "iconic" outfits that you can choose from to be a mere bone thrown your way. And really, I seem to recall the main complaint about DA2's system being that people couldn't adjust companion stats to their liking. In fact, I recall people becoming indignant when it was suggested that they just wanted to dress up their characters.

[Atakuma]

willholt wrote...

... err isn't that exactly what Bioware have done by deciding to impliment the system mentioned in the OP?... Everything the 'Iconics' wanted and a bone to the other side?

I think Bioware assumed the stats were what people wanted.

[In Exile]

willholt wrote...
... err isn't that exactly what Bioware have done by deciding to impliment the system mentioned in the OP?... Everything the 'Iconics' wanted and a bone to the other side?

Mike didn't call it the best compromise. He didn't even call it a compromise.

He said that he wanted to offer increased statistical customization for the fans, who were irate over DA2, and that he was going to inform the fanbase of the creative team's thinking. 

Then people such as yourself protested and came up with other compromises that were labeled "the best" while offering everything only one side wanted. And then there was even indigation that some people were upset at the idea of having it handled like a leveling-up version of Morrigain's DA:O robes. 

Filament wrote...
If the iconic armor for Merrill is one of the top generic mage/bloodmage sets of armor in the game, but there are other top sets of mage/blood mage armor available, along with heavier armor sets if you want to invest in STR or whatever, how exactly is that telling the player to go F themselves? If they want to use the iconic armor, it's one of the best, if they want to use other "best" ones, they have other options too. This problem you've constructed is premised on them being incompetent at balancing their items... which maybe you think will be the case, but it doesn't have to be.

No, you don't get it. What if I want to design a CC mage, or a mage where I pump willpower and resistances to elementals, but all I get are +Magic and + Health from the armour? These are absolutely useless bonuses!

Different builds require different stats. Let's say the default warrior armour gives you heavy + CON and + STR. But what if I want to build a warrior who dodges with 80% defence (using DA2's model)? Then I have to swap out the armour.

I'm not assuming the items are unbalanced. You're not considering how the power curve works. The iconic armour can't possibly boost every stat... so the stats that aren't boosted aren't ever going to be in play if you use that armour. 

[In Exile]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Clearly I've struck a nerve here. You may think Mr. Laidlaw's proposed compromise is a good one, I do not, as it's basically telling people that want gear to change companion appearance to go **** themselves, as you got on your high horse about.

It's telling people who want to customize visually that they can't, yes. And that's fine with me, because it's not my job to argue for other people's taste. You'll notice I never once said what other people should like, unlike you.

As for being on a high horse - that was what you did, so please don't turn it around on me. It's one thing to advocate for a feature, but calling it the best compromise is insulting.

I didn't say to make them significantly inferior, I said to balance them so that it's capable gear but not necessarily the best. Make it the best and have other gear options be equal to it, I don't give a ****. You want to play on Nightmare? You'll have to make a choice then.

Please. You obviously care. It's why you made the post in the first place. As for "capable" but "not the best", that's significantly inferior because the difference between capable (i.e. average-above average) is really different from "the best without exception," no matter how many straws you want to grasp.

[ipgd]

willholt wrote...

... err isn't that exactly what Bioware have done by deciding to impliment the system mentioned in the OP?... Everything the 'Iconics' wanted and a bone to the other side?

There are three groups: the people who want a) unique armor/body models, people who want stat customization, and c) people who want visual armor customization. This compromise is everything groups A and B want, where previously it was only what group A wanted. This compromise does not give group C what they want, and was not intended to, because groups A and C are diametrically opposed in implementation (as repeated ad nauseam: this stuff does not exist in a vacuum, the inclusion of equipable armor would affect the process by which characters are actually designed). A and B aren't, though, so they actually can compromise there.

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...
I hardly see how everything I want and almost everything people who want iconic outfits wants constitutes "throwing them a bone" or being insulting.

It's insulting because it's not even close to everything that people who want iconic outfits want. 

It'd be like saying that what Mike offers (multiple iconic apperances) is "everything" you want. It's either a sign of complete misunderstanding, or just not caring.

As opposed to the current compromise, some of what I want and everything they want. If we want to talk insulting, trying to pass that off as a compromise fits better.

Except it isn't how you describe it, and no one passed it off as a compromise. 

Though that compromise I laid out is actually not as good as another one someone brought up... have a "current equipment" option in the "wardrobe" Laidlaw wanted. So there is no actual iconic outfit with stats, but if you want them to look like they're wearing their iconic outfit even though they're actually wearing Blood Dragon Armor, whatever. But I get to see the Blood Dragon armor instead.

That's just impractical. It means have multiple iconic outfits + multiple generic outfits, and then on top of that it means making sure all of it works with the cutscenes and with every race.

[TheBlackBaron]

In Exile wrote...

It's telling people who want to customize visually that they can't, yes. And that's fine with me, because it's not my job to argue for other people's taste. You'll notice I never once said what other people should like, unlike you.

Really now? Because I seem to see an "imo" attached to the end of "This would have been the best solution" that's been there since last night. 

As for being on a high horse - that was what you did, so please don't turn it around on me. It's one thing to advocate for a feature, but calling it the best compromise is insulting.

I'm not the one howling in rage over what other people have posted and claiming to have been insulted. But you keep thinking that, sunshine. 

Please. You obviously care. It's why you made the post in the first place. As for "capable" but "not the best", that's significantly inferior because the difference between capable (i.e. average-above average) is really different from "the best without exception," no matter how many straws you want to grasp.

Fine. You caught me. I, of course, absolutely insist that the iconic outfits be vastly inferior to other gear. NO COMPROMISES. NO NEGOTIATION WITH TERRORISTS. 

[rak72]

Zanallen wrote...

willholt wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Filament wrote...

Distinctive outfits could very well be one of the best outfits for your companions' default builds. They wouldn't have to be mediocre at all.

And what if they're not? Do I have to go **** myself because I want to build my characters a certain way and want iconic builds?

And it seems like "dress-up" is the new buzz word. It's a little condescending. And continues to be a bit hypocritical when that's exactly the functionality Laidlaw wants to add in the game himself in his design outline, just in a different way, and no one happy with the design is complaining about how silly that is.

It's only condescending in the same way that the "best" compromise being everything you want and throwing a bone to the other side is incredibly insulting. 

... err isn't that exactly what Bioware have done by deciding to impliment the system mentioned in the OP?... Everything the 'Iconics' wanted and a bone to the other side?

I don't consider full stat customization along with various "iconic" outfits that you can choose from to be a mere bone thrown your way. And really, I seem to recall the main complaint about DA2's system being that people couldn't adjust companion stats to their liking. In fact, I recall people becoming indignant when it was suggested that they just wanted to dress up their characters.

That is rather insulting termonology.  It's not about playing "dress up" , it's about having controll  of your game & environment.  In DAO, Alistair always had the warden commander armor in my game.  In my mind he was the proud warden & he should be the one to wear it.  Other people might see their own PC as the proud warden & equip their character with it.  A male cousland might want to show that he is the one who should be king & wear Calin's armor.  Others might thing Alistair should look kingly going into the landsmeet & put him in Calin's armor.  My Warden didn't like Morigan flashing her side boob around Alistair, so she made her put on the most dowdy robe she could find if Morigan wanted to travel anywhere with them.

It's about the player creating the most immersive wold for themselves, not playing Sims of Thedus.  There is no good reason why there can't be both iconic looks & the ability to change out of them.

[In Exile]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Really now? Because I seem to see an "imo" attached to the end of "This would have been the best solution" that's been there since last night.

There is a difference between "This is the system I like for myself, and I don't speak for others" and "This would be the best system for everyone, if you ask me."

I'm not the one howling in rage over what other people have posted and claiming to have been insulted. But you keep thinking that, sunshine.

I didn't claim to be insulted. I said it was insulting. Also, sunshine? Seriously?

Fine. You caught me. I, of course, absolutely insist that the iconic outfits be vastly inferior to other gear. NO COMPROMISES. NO NEGOTIATION WITH TERRORISTS. 

Trying to make some public appeal that I attacked you by replying sarcastically doesn't make you less wrong, only more childish. 

[ipgd]

Filament wrote...

A and C are not diametrically opposed... C hinders A. To an extent I think you're greatly exaggerating still.

I care about visual characterization quite a bit more than the average person does, yes. I'm sure few other people would care if all future characters had to be designed with identical bodies and no differentiation beyond Morrigan-style armor/clothing designs because of the technical restrictions, but I still cry myself to sleep at night over Morrigan/Wynne/Leliana's Prefab Boobs.

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...
How is it not even close? Didn't you like DA2's system?

No. 

If their iconic outfit has all the functionality that it had in DA2, yet can be swapped, that seems like a win win to me.

No, because I didn't like you it worked in DA2. Why would you think I did?

Yes, it's just my opinion, if you think it's insulting because you think I'm trying to pass it off as universal truth... spare me.

It has nothing to do with it being your opinion, and everything to do with trying to speak for other people, and playing it off by saying it is an opinion.

Multiple iconics, like in DA2... and multiple generics, like in DA2... all they'd have to do is fit those generics to the different racial builds. It's not an insurmountable amount of work.

It absolutely is. Let's say you have 4 races in the party, of 2 genders each: it means you need 8 models for each armour. Now, if you have 8 party members, that means that you have at least 16 iconic armours (if you give 2 for each member). Now if you have another 15 pieces of armour, that means that you have to have 40 tailored character models, along with the 16. Which means a total of 56 armours. 

Granted, yes there are issues like body tattoos, significantly atypical body proportions that could be problematic, but I personally don't value those as much as customization.

But that plays into the 'iconic' look. 

[In Exile]

rak72 wrote...
It's about the player creating the most immersive wold for themselves, not playing Sims of Thedus.  There is no good reason why there can't be both iconic looks & the ability to change out of them.

Cost is a really big one. 

[rak72]

In Exile wrote...

rak72 wrote...
It's about the player creating the most immersive wold for themselves, not playing Sims of Thedus.  There is no good reason why there can't be both iconic looks & the ability to change out of them.

Cost is a really big one. 

I don't think so.  Again, if modders were able to make a fix for this on Nexus, it shouldn't be a big deal for the professionals.

[TheBlackBaron]

In Exile wrote...
There is a difference between "This is the system I like for myself, and I don't speak for others" and "This would be the best system for everyone, if you ask me."

Apologies. I shall endeavor to meet your demands for precise language in the future, O Arbiter Of The Acronyms. 

I didn't claim to be insulted. I said it was insulting. Also, sunshine? Seriously?

Childishness masquerading as maturity will be handled with terms I would use on a child. 

Trying to make some public appeal that I attacked you by replying sarcastically doesn't make you less wrong, only more childish. 

Considering I'm not the one flying off on a handle, screaming about other people posting their ideas, and demanding that they clearly state that they only speak for themselves at the beginning of every post, I don't tihnk you're in the best position to be pass judgement on what is and isn't childish. 

[Gunderic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

Building your equipment system around cosplayers is not a path I am going to pay into.

Congratulations, you have discovered that it is easy to make anyone's argument look ridiculous when you reply based on inaccurate simplifications.

Well Chris' comment in another thread, sure leaves that impression.

I'm starting to get left with that impression too. I've seen Dragon Age cosplay get brought up as a merit of 'iconic looks' before. Splendid.

So in Dragon Age 3, BioWare is:

-- keeping iconic armour to help cosplayers.

-- providing the player with more trinket slots for companions.

-- giving us more unlockable alternative outfits.

Oh BioWare, you had me at hello.

Modifié par Gunderic, 30 août 2011 - 12:54 .

[ipgd]

rak72 wrote...

I don't think so.  Again, if modders were able to make a fix for this on Nexus, it shouldn't be a big deal for the professionals.

Just because it can be done by modders does not mean it is not still a lot of work. It would still demand extra time and resources out a finite pool of time and resources that would inevitably be acquired by diverting time and resources away from more important things.

[willholt]

ipgd wrote...

Filament wrote...

A and C are not diametrically opposed... C hinders A. To an extent I think you're greatly exaggerating still.

I care about visual characterization quite a bit more than the average person does, yes. I'm sure few other people would care if all future characters had to be designed with identical bodies and no differentiation beyond Morrigan-style armor/clothing designs because of the technical restrictions, but I still cry myself to sleep at night over Morrigan/Wynne/Leliana's Prefab Boobs.

Actually, I just wrote a 4 paragtaph post in reply, then just deleted it.

Just no point in arguing about this any longer. The decision has been made, and no amount of arguing for/against particular points will make the slightest bit of difference.

Congrats, you won and you get your game full of iconic characters... Me, I'm out of this debate!

[Maconbar]

ipgd wrote...

Filament wrote...

A and C are not diametrically opposed... C hinders A. To an extent I think you're greatly exaggerating still.

I care about visual characterization quite a bit more than the average person does, yes. I'm sure few other people would care if all future characters had to be designed with identical bodies and no differentiation beyond Morrigan-style armor/clothing designs because of the technical restrictions, but I still cry myself to sleep at night over Morrigan/Wynne/Leliana's Prefab Boobs.

I hated that Wynne, Morrigan, and Leliana had the same body in DA:O. I never really cared whether the companions had an iconic look.