1027 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

ipgd wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I don't think so.  Again, if modders were able to make a fix for this on Nexus, it shouldn't be a big deal for the professionals.

Just because it can be done by modders does not mean it is not still a lot of work. It would still demand extra time and resources out a finite pool of time and resources that would inevitably be acquired by diverting time and resources away from more important things.

WHICH IS WHY I HAVEN'T UPDATED MY ELF CONVERSIONS IN A WHILE.

I'm not too cool for school, unlike ipgd, who always manages to find time to write her amazingly sexy, ridiculously long essays about post-modernism in video gaming.

[EDIT] And, not to pat myself on the back too hard, but as far as making armors fit other races, "modders" aren't doing anything. I am. And it's hella time-consuming.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 30 août 2011 - 01:08 .

[rak72]

ipgd wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I don't think so.  Again, if modders were able to make a fix for this on Nexus, it shouldn't be a big deal for the professionals.

Just because it can be done by modders does not mean it is not still a lot of work. It would still demand extra time and resources out a finite pool of time and resources that would inevitably be acquired by diverting time and resources away from more important things.

A lot of people think it is important, they can put some intern on it, pay him a couple of bucks & it will be taken care of.  Honestly, I don't think it is a question of resources for Bioware.  They have their vision of what the story should be and they want to make sure everyone adhers to it.  Mike Laidlaw  himself said that it bugged him to see screen shots of Morrigan in plate.

So, *shrugs* whatever.  They made their decision & I'm going to keep my $70

[Atakuma]

Gunderic wrote...

I'm starting to get left with that impression too. I've seen Dragon Age cosplay get brought up as a merit of 'iconic looks' before. Splendid.

So in Dragon Age 3, BioWare is:

-- keeping iconic armour to help cosplayers.

-- providing the player with more trinket slots for companions.

Oh BioWare, you had me at hello.

Bringing back full statistical customization for companions is not even close to them just adding more trinket slots.
And chris was obviously using cosplay as an example of how Iconic looks make companions more memorable, not using it as a reason for doing them.

[Serpieri Nei]

In Exile wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote..
Unless, your system is going to have at least 8 armors per companion to offer a wide range of variety. I am not at all intrigued.

DA:O didn't have anywhere near that many. This is a borderline ridiculous request. 

http://dragonage.wik..._sets_(Origins)

http://dragonage.wik...ets_(Awakening)

http://dragonage.wik...oth_chestpieces

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 30 août 2011 - 01:04 .

[ipgd]

rak72 wrote...

A lot of people think it is important, they can put some intern on it, pay him a couple of bucks & it will be taken care of.  Honestly, I don't think it is a question of resources for Bioware.

Just because you don't want it to be a lot of work doesn't magically make it not a lot of work. Seriously, if you really think it's not at all time consuming, go try doing it. Ish, can you make 5 or 6 more posts confirming your authority and saying how time consuming it is so maybe people will get it.

They could spend half of their budget paying people to refit a billion armor models for every character. Or they could spend that money on stuff like, you know, environments, enemy models, more quests, and, I dunno, about anything that's more important than this.

[ipgd]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

http://dragonage.wik..._sets_(Origins)

http://dragonage.wik...ets_(Awakening)

http://dragonage.wik...oth_chestpieces

The vast majority of armor sets in DAO are retextures of the same handful of models.

[In Exile]

rak72 wrote...
I don't think so.  Again, if modders were able to make a fix for this on Nexus, it shouldn't be a big deal for the professionals.

You mean if people working for free without deadlines and with much less stringent compability constraints could do it in some nondescript amount of time, it shouldn't be a big deal for professionals who have to perform a host of other tasks against a strict deadline?

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Apologies. I shall endeavor to meet your demands for precise language in the future, O Arbiter Of The Acronyms.

It's cute that you tried to hide it, but an "IMO" doesn't make it less condescending. Observe:

IMO, people who want visual customization only want to play dress-up, and given how superficial this is, the best compromise would be to avoid indulging this preference. 

You're right! It wasn't condescending at all now that I put IMO in it.

Childishness masquerading as maturity will be handled with terms I would use on a child.

You refer to kids as 'sunshine'? Alistair had a phrase for that...

Considering I'm not the one flying off on a handle, screaming about other people posting their ideas, and demanding that they clearly state that they only speak for themselves at the beginning of every post, I don't tihnk you're in the best position to be pass judgement on what is and isn't childish. 

Flying of the handle? Screaming? Demanding? What are you talking about?

I pointed out that using a phrase like "best" compromise is demeaning, because it minimizes opposing views. You then tried to minimize this by insulting me.

Filament wrote...
...Then I guess it's not a good compromise for you, then. My line of thinking was between "people who like DA2's system" and "people who like DAO's system."

But that doesn't work either. Depending on what the question is, I might have say either thing. In fact, I did like things about both systems.

If we're talking about statistical customization, I liked DA:O and hated DA2. If we're talking about visual customization, I liked iconic armour in DA2 but disliked that we were forced into 1 look, and I liked getting to change looks in DA:O but hated being forced into generic armour. 

It's always more complex than this, and my whole point is that a reduction doesn't catch that. Which is what makes it a little insulting, that a positive reaction towards this topic tells you very much of anything about anyone's taste. 

What you've just said is that it's work, not that it's an insurmountable amount of work. There were a lot of unique armor sets in DAO (mostly massive ones) yet they managed to find a way to fit them for all four races.

We have a modder who was willing to do all this for DA2 for free (and for DA3 if they hire her ).

There were no unique armour sets in DA:O. We had about 6 or so models. Retextures don't mean a new model. We had 1 model of massive, 2 models of heavy, 1 of medium, 2 of light if I recall. 

56 is a hell of a lot more than that. 

t does, but I don't find it that important. Merrill had an iconic look, yet she didn't have any body tattoos and she had a generic elf female body type. Isabela does have a more curvaceous figure, but considering that it doesn't bother me putting Isabela into Hawke's armor and having her conform to the generic human female model, and considering I don't think the devs should let that bother them enough to homogenize their companions either (like they already showed it didn't with Morrigan), the only thing I feel they truly lose the capacity to do is those body tattoos. Which I don't find to be a huge loss.

I get that you don't care. But you don't care about an iconic look at all. I'm telling you why that matters to people who do care about iconic looks. 

Modifié par In Exile, 30 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[Atakuma]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote..
Unless, your system is going to have at least 8 armors per companion to offer a wide range of variety. I am not at all intrigued.

DA:O didn't have anywhere near that many. This is a borderline ridiculous request. 

http://dragonage.wik..._sets_(Origins)

http://dragonage.wik...ets_(Awakening)

http://dragonage.wik...oth_chestpieces

He's refferring to the fact that most of the armors were just reskins and there were only maybe eight actual models in the game.

[Redcoat]

So, unless I'm completely misinterpreting Mr. Laidlaw's post, we'll be able to change our party members' armour, we just won't be able to actually SEE the armour. It'll be like the "Hide Helmet" toggle, only for the full body, and there's no actual toggle, yes?

Which is a compromise I can live with, I guess. I'd still prefer that armour be handled like in ME1, where characters wear their "iconic" outfits while not on a mission, while wearing whatever the player equips them with in battle.

[hoorayforicecream]

Filament wrote...

What you've just said is that it's work, not that it's an insurmountable amount of work. There were a lot of unique armor sets in DAO (mostly massive ones) yet they managed to find a way to fit them for all four races.

We have a modder who was willing to do all this for DA2 for free (and for DA3 if they hire her ).

Oh, I guess I can just say who it is. ^^ Her.

It isn't insurmountable, but it's cost-prohibitive because the amount of time it would take to do it would mean that you have only a handful of choices. You can either have very few armors and more bodies, or more armors and fewer bodies, but you don't have enough time for both. You only have the time budget to do N armors total. So if you have X bodies and Y armors, then X * Y <= N. Increasing X means decreasing Y, and vice versa.

[TheBlackBaron]

In Exile wrote...

It's cute that you tried to hide it, but an "IMO" doesn't make it less condescending. Observe:

IMO, people who want visual customization only want to play dress-up, and given how superficial this is, the best compromise would be to avoid indulging this preference. 

You're right! It wasn't condescending at all now that I put IMO in it.

It's fun to type out a caricature of the other person's views and then argue against them, isn't it? So much easier to feel like you're in the right and not being holier-than-thou or self-righteous or anything like that. 

Flying of the handle? Screaming? Demanding? What are you talking about?

I pointed out that using a phrase like "best" compromise is demeaning, because it minimizes opposing views. You then tried to minimize this by insulting me.

Thus far, your posts in my direction have mostly consisted of whining that posting what I think is the best compromise is demeaning towards you and demanding that I type "I don't speak for anybody else". Oh, and claiming that by doing otherwise I'm insulting you, or something.

[In Exile]

Redcoat wrote...
Which is a compromise I can live with, I guess. I'd still prefer that armour be handled like in ME1, where characters wear their "iconic" outfits while not on a mission, while wearing whatever the player equips them with in battle.

That bugged me, to be honest. Not so much with the humans + liara who swapped into clothes... but it was ridiculous to see Garrus, Wrex and Tali just swap out a diffferent kind of armour. It was just a big wtf moment. 

[Atakuma]

Redcoat wrote...

Which is a compromise I can live with, I guess. I'd still prefer that armour be handled like in ME1, where characters wear their "iconic" outfits while not on a mission, while wearing whatever the player equips them with in battle.

This would be my preference as well.

[Tommy6860]

rak72 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I don't think so.  Again, if modders were able to make a fix for this on Nexus, it shouldn't be a big deal for the professionals.

Just because it can be done by modders does not mean it is not still a lot of work. It would still demand extra time and resources out a finite pool of time and resources that would inevitably be acquired by diverting time and resources away from more important things.

A lot of people think it is important, they can put some intern on it, pay him a couple of bucks & it will be taken care of.  Honestly, I don't think it is a question of resources for Bioware.  They have their vision of what the story should be and they want to make sure everyone adhers to it.  Mike Laidlaw  himself said that it bugged him to see screen shots of Morrigan in plate.

So, *shrugs* whatever.  They made their decision & I'm going to keep my $70

Good point. I, unfortunately didn't have that option since I bought into the game with a pre-order and found that I was stuck on myself for custiomization, nothing else for my companions. Lesson learned; no more pre-orders from Bioware, ever. I will wait for friend reviews and comments .

[Serpieri Nei]

ipgd wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

http://dragonage.wik..._sets_(Origins)

http://dragonage.wik...ets_(Awakening)

http://dragonage.wik...oth_chestpieces

The vast majority of armor sets in DAO are retextures of the same handful of models.

You have me mistaken for someone that is bothered by this.

[TheBlackBaron]

Atakuma wrote...

Redcoat wrote...

Which is a compromise I can live with, I guess. I'd still prefer that armour be handled like in ME1, where characters wear their "iconic" outfits while not on a mission, while wearing whatever the player equips them with in battle.

This would be my preference as well.

This would also be a good way of handling it.

[Tommy6860]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote..
Unless, your system is going to have at least 8 armors per companion to offer a wide range of variety. I am not at all intrigued.

DA:O didn't have anywhere near that many. This is a borderline ridiculous request. 

http://dragonage.wik..._sets_(Origins)

http://dragonage.wik...ets_(Awakening)

http://dragonage.wik...oth_chestpieces

Oh, the silence is deafening. Good one !

[rak72]

ipgd wrote...

rak72 wrote...

A lot of people think it is important, they can put some intern on it, pay him a couple of bucks & it will be taken care of.  Honestly, I don't think it is a question of resources for Bioware.

Just because you don't want it to be a lot of work doesn't magically make it not a lot of work. Seriously, if you really think it's not at all time consuming, go try doing it. Ish, can you make 5 or 6 more posts confirming your authority and saying how time consuming it is so maybe people will get it.

They could spend half of their budget paying people to refit a billion armor models for every character. Or they could spend that money on stuff like, you know, environments, enemy models, more quests, and, I dunno, about anything that's more important than this.

I didn't say it wasn't time consuming, I said it was important enough to do. And I'm sure it can be done without spending half their budget and less than a billion armor models.  

If they are going to have different races as the protagonist, they are going to need to make the armor models for the different races anyway (not that I'm saying there WILL be different races, just speculating).  If you have Isabella take off her iconic armor, she can just use the body model of the generic armor she puts on.  I think most people that want customisation would be more than happy with this.  If you don't want to see her in a normal body type, just keep the iconic armor on.

If they are not going to make multiple race protagonists, they still need to make armor modles for the NPCs.  If they make a particular armor for an elf, but not a human, then just don't let humans equip it.  So I find a piece of elven armor laying around, I can put Fenris in it, but not Anders.

[In Exile]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
It's fun to type out a caricature of the other person's views and then argue against them, isn't it? So much easier to feel like you're in the right and not being holier-than-thou or self-righteous or anything like that.  

It has to be, because otherwise I assume you would have stopped doing it at some point. 

Thus far, your posts in my direction have mostly consisted of whining that posting what I think is the best compromise is demeaning towards you and demanding that I type "I don't speak for anybody else".

No.

My first post in your direction was to say that it was a really bad alternative, because it entirely misses the point of what someone who doesn't share your view might want. So bad, in fact, that it essentially forces players to compromise gameplay for apperance. 

You then decided to resort to personal attacks. 

Oh, and claiming that by doing otherwise I'm insulting you, or something.

It's disrespectful to say you're speaking about 'compromises' without even bothering to legitimately consider a PoV that isn't yours. 

[ipgd]

Fandango9641 wrote...

A lot of work? All that posturing about iconic characters and customisation being mutually exclusive, all the disingenuous pretence over tattoos, bosoms and the rest and you eventually settle for ‘it’s not that important’?

It's less important than some things and more important than others. I was not aware that I had to ascribe an issue the utmost level of importance over all other things in order to defend it.

But in this case, unique follower armors is actually significantly less work than any other alternative (consequentially less taxing on the resources that could be spent in other areas I may arbitrarily deem as "more important"), which is why I advocate for that specifically over "highly unique body models with each armor set individually fitted" which may be a nice option but so resource intensive that it is not realistic.

[In Exile]

Serpieri Nei wrote...
You have me mistaken for someone that is bothered by this.

So then what is the issue with having retextures of companion armour, like Mike Laidlaw is offering? 

The DA:O armours had very few unique textures. 6 base models, and probably 14 total textures. So if you have 3 textures per companions, for something like 24 textures total, what's the issue? 

[Gunderic]

Zanallen wrote...

Calling it "dress-up" might be a little condescending, but that is essentially what it is. With stats removed from the equation, all you are fighting for is the ability to dress your companions in different outfits of your choosing. Playing dress-up.

And what does that mean for people who support the currently proposed, purely aesthetical alternative outfit unlockables/trinket inventory system?