1027 réponses à ce sujet

[vania z]

I have good(?) solution: companions have their special gear at home, but when in party wear anything you put on them.

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...

And that's awesome for you. But this still doesn't address the central issue with the system: why should people who like iconic looks have to suffer,

They Don't have to suffer.

Again, I point to the Morrigan method.  She had Iconic gear, and many people stuck with that look because it was unique and iconic.

But the rest of us had the option to make her wear something else.

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

They Don't have to suffer.

Again, I point to the Morrigan method.  She had Iconic gear, and many people stuck with that look because it was unique and iconic.

But the rest of us had the option to make her wear something else.

Except that doesn't work for anyone other than a mage and it barely worked for her in higher difficulties. Are you saying that the compromise should be gimped characters if we want to maintain an iconic look? 'Cause that isn't compromise. That is you getting what you want and the others being screwed over.

[macrocarl]

This is all great and you guys rock. And Mike Laidlaw, if you still want to do a beard-off starting 5 minutes ago you are on!

[ipgd]

Yrkoon wrote...

 The Morrigan  method is a reasonable compromise..  She had  Iconic gear.    And the player could remove it if he/she wants.  Simple.  Effective.  satisfies both camps.

But it doesn't satisfy both camps.

You seem to be laboring under a misconception as to what unique armor/body models actually accomplish and what advocates of that method actually want.

It is not a cost concern. While the unique armor method is less expensive to do, DAO's method is not exactly cost prohibitive -- they've already done it before, obviously. But DAO's method does have a number of big faults [for people who actually care about visual design and physical companion individuality], and remedying those faults while retaining DAO's method is what is cost prohibitive.

Modifié par ipgd, 30 août 2011 - 03:26 .

[willholt]

rak72 wrote...

What Yrkoon said

thirded

[vania z]

Zanallen wrote...


Except that doesn't work for anyone other than a mage and it barely worked for her in higher difficulties. Are you saying that the compromise should be gimped characters if we want to maintain an iconic look? 'Cause that isn't compromise. That is you getting what you want and the others being screwed over.

Just add autoleveling to Morrigan's robes. It is quite simple a solution, isn't it?

[Yrkoon]

How would it not work for, say a warrior? They *could* have given Alistair (for example) an Iconic outfit. Or Sten.

And Morrigan's outfit (expecially the one you get after killing flemeth) is perfectly relevant even on nightmare.

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

In Exile wrote...

And that's awesome for you. But this still doesn't address the central issue with the system: why should people who like iconic looks have to suffer,

They Don't have to suffer.

Again, I point to the Morrigan method.  She had Iconic gear, and many people stuck with that look because it was unique and iconic.

But the rest of us had the option to make her wear something else.

Thing is, Morrigan had the same body model as Wynne, which is something the iconic looks addressed. the companions now have their own body structure. Aveline's body structure is different from Isabela's.

A real compromise is largely what Mike Laidlaw posted, but I'd add to it that when the player equips other armor to the companion it changes their iconic look a little bit.

Example: Varric's Tailored Leather Duster gains a bit of plating on the chest area if you put him in a set of heavy plate armor, but the Duster is still recognizable and you can still see most if not all of his chest hair that's shown in his current iconic look.

[Zanallen]

vania z wrote...

Zanallen wrote...


Except that doesn't work for anyone other than a mage and it barely worked for her in higher difficulties. Are you saying that the compromise should be gimped characters if we want to maintain an iconic look? 'Cause that isn't compromise. That is you getting what you want and the others being screwed over.

Just add autoleveling to Morrigan's robes. It is quite simple a solution, isn't it?

No. No it isn't. Exactly what stats do Morrigan's robes level up with? Is it good for all mage builds? It can't be. It can't possibly support a regular mage build AND a blood mage build. So, your compromise is that if I want to build any kind of Morrigan outside of what her unique robes support, I have to be gimped or ditch the iconic look. Sweet.

[RussianSpy27]

In Exile wrote...

Here is the issue: The statistical costumization and power-gaming.

1)Let's say you do it like KoTOR, and have one outfit. In KoTOR, the clothing had no stats and no armour. If you wanted to keep an iconic look, you had to suffer a gameplay penalty that became increasingly major as time went on.

2) Even if you add stats (and make the item level-up like DA2) it will always be suboptimal for at least a few builds (or possibly all of them, depending on the stats). 

As I mentioned before, this is not a compromise between the two positions: this is just one side getting everything they want (exactly like DA:O!) and the other side getting a bone thrown (here, it's one item, deal with it if you don't like the gameplay consequences). 

That's not to say that what Mr. Laidlaw is offering is a good compromise. Or even a compromise at all, because the OP was only about increasing statistical customization. But these counter-offers designed to be compromises absolutely aren't.

DA:O had no iconic equipment. It had very generic equipment (and even sillier) armour that literally changed the breast size of the women who wore it (just look at the Chasind armour of magical boob growth on Morrigain). 

The actual issue is cost:

To make a custom model, it's expensive. DA:O only had 6 armour models, and that meant a tremendous amount of work. 

With Bioware's increased focused on cinematics, you have to test every item on every character of every size,which means all the armour has to look the same (that's why Hawke's armour was more generic aside from the Champion's armour) to make sure you don't have weird clipping or other problems. If there are, that means your designer has to go back and fix the armour. That has to be tested for every character and each model, while there are other game features to be 

We're talking about realistic armour in a game where getting doused in fire while wearing metal doesn't immediately result in:

"OH GOD IT'S MELTING MY FACE GOD AHGGHGHGHSL...... (you are dead)". 

But seriously, what do you mean by realism? 

inExile, thanks for your thoughtful reply.  You're right about the weird cliping. You're also right that by far not everything about DAO's customization is realistic. I guess it was my personal preference to overlook "fire burning in your face" and smile with approval when Alister was equiped with a horned helmet that actually showed up in game to be a horned helmet (because duh I mean, it's a helmet with horns!!! ).

I suppose I'm a fan of some minor realistic portrayals (like DA:O) as opposed to a person alledgedly wearing massive armor and helmet and being seen in game with a shirt and no helmet on. It's just like while reading, you imagine warriors in battle with armor (as per an author's general or specific description) . It feels right. 

Your point about cost trumps it all though...I get it .

[Yrkoon]

ipgd wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

 The Morrigan  method is a reasonable compromise..  She had  Iconic gear.    And the player could remove it if he/she wants.  Simple.  Effective.  satisfies both camps.

But it doesn't satisfy both camps.

You seem to be laboring under a misconception as to what unique armor/body models actually accomplish and what advocates of that method actually want.

It is not a cost concern. While the unique armor method is less expensive to do, DAO's method is not exactly cost prohibitive -- they've already done it before, obviously. But DAO's method does have a number of big faults [for people who actually care about visual design and physical companion individuality], and remedying those faults while retaining DAO's method is what is cost prohibitive.

Enlighten me,

Now exactly does giving a companion  removable  Iconic gear, and even future upgrades/versions to that removable iconic gear, not satisfy the camp that prefers iconic gear?

[vania z]

Zanallen wrote...

No. No it isn't. Exactly what stats do Morrigan's robes level up with? Is it good for all mage builds? It can't be. It can't possibly support a regular mage build AND a blood mage build. So, your compromise is that if I want to build any kind of Morrigan outside of what her unique robes support, I have to be gimped or ditch the iconic look. Sweet.

But that is exactly what you have with iconic armor:D

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

How would it not work for, say a warrior? They *could* have given Alistair (for example) an Iconic outfit. Or Sten.

And Morrigan's outfit (expecially the one you get after killing flemeth) is perfectly relevant even on nightmare.

It works for mages because they stay in the back and don't get hit. Warriors are constantly being attacked. Crap beginner armor like Morrigan's would be shredded. And having it autolevel doesn't address build compatability.

[Zanallen]

vania z wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

No. No it isn't. Exactly what stats do Morrigan's robes level up with? Is it good for all mage builds? It can't be. It can't possibly support a regular mage build AND a blood mage build. So, your compromise is that if I want to build any kind of Morrigan outside of what her unique robes support, I have to be gimped or ditch the iconic look. Sweet.

But that is exactly what you have with iconic armor:D

No it isn't. Under Laidlaw's idea, I would have iconic armor while retaining full statistical customization.

[Yrkoon]

Zanallen wrote...

vania z wrote...

Zanallen wrote...


Except that doesn't work for anyone other than a mage and it barely worked for her in higher difficulties. Are you saying that the compromise should be gimped characters if we want to maintain an iconic look? 'Cause that isn't compromise. That is you getting what you want and the others being screwed over.

Just add autoleveling to Morrigan's robes. It is quite simple a solution, isn't it?

No. No it isn't. Exactly what stats do Morrigan's robes level up with?

Uh... is it my turn to say:  what ever properties the devs decide   to level it up with?  Hell, they could even give it rune slots and it'd still be all good.

[vania z]

Zanallen wrote...


No it isn't. Under Laidlaw's idea, I would have iconic armor while retaining full statistical customization.

It is exactly the same to what da2 has. Laidlaw's idea reminds me hide helmet option, btw I think it should be done like that. It is not difficult to do that. 

[willholt]

Zanallen wrote...

vania z wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

No. No it isn't. Exactly what stats do Morrigan's robes level up with? Is it good for all mage builds? It can't be. It can't possibly support a regular mage build AND a blood mage build. So, your compromise is that if I want to build any kind of Morrigan outside of what her unique robes support, I have to be gimped or ditch the iconic look. Sweet.

But that is exactly what you have with iconic armor:D

No it isn't. Under Laidlaw's idea, I would have iconic armor while retaining full statistical customization.

... and I end up with the gimped gameplay function of not being able to have my companions looking like I want them to.

See how this gimping thing works?

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

Uh... is it my turn to say:  what ever properties the devs decide   to level it up with?  Hell, they could even give it rune slots and it'd still be all good.

Feel free to address the rest of the post that expands upon the first sentence.

[Nerevar-as]

Is it that hard to do skins for each body type and armor? I´m asking because I don´t know if cinematic approach makes things that harder or BW is just taking the easy route with things such as this or not allowing any alteration to body types as in NWN2.

[Yrkoon]

Zanallen wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

How would it not work for, say a warrior? They *could* have given Alistair (for example) an Iconic outfit. Or Sten.

And Morrigan's outfit (expecially the one you get after killing flemeth) is perfectly relevant even on nightmare.

It works for mages because they stay in the back and don't get hit. Warriors are constantly being attacked. Crap beginner armor like Morrigan's would be shredded. And having it autolevel doesn't address build compatability.

Have you played DA:O?

Morrigan has two aesthetically identical robes.  One she comes with when you pick her up, and another, vastly more powerful, robe  you find later.

Are you telling me they can't do that with a warrior?  That they can't do that 5 times with a warrior?

[Zanallen]

willholt wrote...

... and I end up with the gimped gameplay function of not being able to have my companions looking like I want them to.

See how this gimping thing works?

But you aren't gimped from a gameplay function. Visual customization is not a function of gameplay. What your companions look like has absolutely no effect on how the game is played. Meanwhile, having to use crap gear or gear that doesn't match the current build of my characters absolutely effects gameplay.

[San Diego Thief]

I don't like this idea and prefer customizable armor....in Baldur's gate, you looked extremely powerful after equipping your characters with the latest armor and weapons and having those appear on the screen

it bonds you to that character and adds an amount of lore to the game - for defeating that dragon, you get to see the fruits of your labor every time you take a look at your character

[Fallstar]

Zanallen wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

How would it not work for, say a warrior? They *could* have given Alistair (for example) an Iconic outfit. Or Sten.

And Morrigan's outfit (expecially the one you get after killing flemeth) is perfectly relevant even on nightmare.

It works for mages because they stay in the back and don't get hit. Warriors are constantly being attacked. Crap beginner armor like Morrigan's would be shredded. And having it autolevel doesn't address build compatability.

Eh? The robes of posession are great for a cold spell focussed Morrigan? Combine with Winters Breath and the Ashen Gloves (or whatever the +20% cold ones were) and that was a pretty great end game set up. How could you not just do the same thing with warriors? Heck, I basically used Cailan's Armour set as an 'iconic' armour set for Alistair.

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

Have you played DA:O?

Morrigan has two aesthetically identical robes.  One she comes with when you pick her up, and another, vastly more powerful, robe  you find later.

Are you telling me they can't do that with a warrior?  That they can't do that 5 times with a warrior?

So, you want them to make five different suits of armor for each companion spread throughout the game that maintain the unique looks with progressively better stats? Yeah, that is stupid. And it still offers absolutely no stat customization.