1027 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

I think that's more the issue with the really, really old engine that goes back on principles from the Aurora. Bioware just needs a new engine, build from the ground up.

Maybe, but if i'm not mistaken the DA engine effectively is "new engine, built from the ground up" (sure it has some components from the earlier version, but that's true for practically all "new engines") Or to put it another way, they've spent years making this thing. If it doesn't use the scaling etc then it's because they'd made decision not to use it early, and went with it. They had more than enough time to implement it, if that early decision was different.

[vania z]

ipgd wrote...

But it's not done this way. Armor models actually have real polys describing the shapes, unlike older games like NWN. I think the early attempts at DA2 nude mods are pretty illustrative of the problem with this (NSFW):

1, 2

They could go back to textured-on armor, but... it'd look like ****.
 
Which would require them rewriting their engine to support it, which would require extra time and money. Or licensing somebody else's engine, which would mean no chance of a toolset ever again (PLS BIOWARE TOOLSET PLS ;

This nude pictures are pretty good. Add some height mapping and it will be perfect. 
Don't you think programmers should add new features? Or would you rather have DA:O's engine be used for ten years without any changes?

Modifié par vania z, 30 août 2011 - 05:46 .

[Dormiglione]

The idea of customization in DA3 presented by Mike Laidlaw is a good compromise. It keeps the iconic visuals that the Bioware team wants to keep and gives some more flexibility to the player.

Im a little bit indifferent to iconic look or not. What i want to see is more individual set of armor for my main character. Outfit for mages that are not looking like bathrobes.

Customization is a good element in a rpg, but for myself its not a criteria on my checklist to decide if i buy DA3 or not.

[vania z]

Hi, JohnEpler.
Can you please tell to non-believers that armor scaling is actually possible?
That is the only thing which can convince them:D
Thanks:)

[hoorayforicecream]

Yrkoon wrote...

All right.  I'm gonna ask a question now, for any programmer who can answer.  Suppose you're putting out an RPG with 8 unique companions  (one guy has skeletal arms, another only has one arm, one has Huge ******, another has glowing tattoos  etc.

 You want to give the player the ability to equip those characters with whatever gear you wish.   So yes, You need tons of new meshes to make that happen all nice and accurate-like.  Question: what are we looking at here, cost and time wise?  is it really so budget breaking/ time killing impossible?   Or is it, in fact,  very p[ossible, and no different than, say,   deciding to  hand craft 100 unique maps rather than simply re-using  5 maps 20 times and expecing the gamer to understand how "expensive" it is to make computer games?

This isn't a programming question, it's a production question. It all starts with how much time you have, and your budget for the game. Let's assume you have a budget of $15 million, and two years of production time. Each person costs $50,000 annually. You have a total of 200 empty slots with which to fill your team, and you have infinite potential hires you can pull from that work perfectly without the need of ramp-up time to learn the tools, and never make a mistake when it comes to giving task time estimates. Essentially, it's the 'perfect' work production environment.

What do you need (the simplified version)?

- Systems designers to create the core gameplay systems
- Level designers to create the levels and script the gameplay
- Environment artists to create the environment and level geometry for the levels.
- Prop artists to create the props and doohickeys with which the Environment artists use to populate the environments.
- Character artists to create characters
- Texture artists to create textures for each character
- Effects artists to create the visual effects for the powers and abilities you are creating
- Animators to animate the characters and effects
- Gameplay programmers to create the gameplay systems laid out by the systems designers and level designers
- Engine programmers to support the other programmers

Equippable gear requires character modelers. Each character modeler can create a fully differentiated character in 4 months, and you need one animator for each character modeler to make animations, and one texture artist. Additional outfits require the texture artist, and the character modeler, but not the animator. However, it takes the animator 6 months to create a character, not 4.

Zones require a level designer, an environment artist, and 2 prop artists. It takes 8 months to create a full level. 

It takes one effects artist two months to create one batch of effects.

Gameplay systems require a system designer to create the systems and three gameplay programmers to support, and two engine programmers to support the gameplay programmers. It takes 8 months to create and polish a gameplay system.

So you have to start filling the team. How do you do it? That's the production question.

[In Exile]

JohnEpler wrote...
Not true. The functionality already exists to adjust cameras for the height of models - however, in DA2, the height of the Hawke's isn't different enough to always have that turned on, so if you replace Hawke with a completely differently sized model the camera isn't going to adjust accordingly. If we'd done a game with variable heights and weights, the functionality would have likely been made correspondingly more robust, but there wasn't a pressing need for it in DA2 as compared to the other things the programmers needed to handle.

Really? I had no idea. Thanks for the info! This actually changes my view considerably.

So does that mean it could be (in theory!) possible for us to have different racial models (say, a qunari .)  for the protagonist with how the cameras work in engine without very much work? 

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...

 we get multiple outfits (yay visual customization!)

Man, you sure are tossing this comment around  a lot on this thread, even though you haven't the first clue how many such outfits each companion will get.  For all we know, it could be a pitifully small number... like 3... one for each act.  Then we'll all be expected to rejoice when we get to pay 5 bucks for DLC that adds one more for each companion  <gag>

  And if it is,  I wouldn't call that visual customization.  And I certainly  wouldn't see it as anything to cheer about.

And at some point, we're ALL going to have to take a step back and ask ourselves how  satisfied we're willing to be with such low budget corner-cutting  "compromises" when  such uncompromising, epic games like Skyrim loom on  the horizion.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 30 août 2011 - 05:57 .

[ipgd]

vania z wrote...

This nude pictures are pretty good. Add some height mapping and it will be perfect.

I'm throwing up in my own mouth just out of aesthetic objections, personally, but to each his own.

Don't you think programmers should add new features? Or would you rather have DA:O's engine be used for ten years without any changes?

Sure, they could. But I don't know enough about their circumstances to say whether they can or will, so I can only comment on these issues from the context of a game designed with DA2/DAO's engine. Maybe they will have an algorithm that dynamically refits armor perfectly some day, but they currently don't, so armor mesh refitting is still a resource intensive task. If DA3 comes out with some banging magitechnology the subject can be readdressed.

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...
Merrill is a forest person, yes, but with this system as Laidlaw outlined it, I will have the ability to equip said forest person in Blood Dragon massive plate. She'll get all the protection of Blood Dragon massive plate, but she'll be wearing cloth still aesthetically. I don't like that. 

To do that, I'm pretty sure you'd have to first b0rk her stats enough to have her meet the prereq. And if they give you an arcane warrior spec for NPCs, I'd bet they'd create an armour model.

Her Hightown model is armoured. Shoeless, but at least armoured.

Maybe armor in RPGs doesn't make sense from a realistic perspective, but I'm talking in terms of internal consistency. Massive plate is more protective and blocks more damage than cloth. That's how it's supposed to work in Thedas' very simplified combat system.

In Thedas, we have magic. Massive Plate could be a useless brick compared to enchanted cloth that has +50 armour. So you could just rationalize the Blood Dragon plate as a massive enchatment.

Magic throws these constraints out the window.

As I've mentioned before, barring full visual customization, I want their iconic outfits to span different levels of bulkiness so I can choose an iconic outfit that matches what the character has equipped.

I support different levels of 'armour' on the general principle that people have different aesthetics. I think the feature should be in without any connection to things like how armour works, because I think that's a good feature for its own sake. 

tmp7704 wrote...
Maybe, but if i'm not mistaken the DA engine effectively is "new engine, built from the ground up" (sure it has some components from the earlier version, but that's true for practically all "new engines") Or to put it another way, they've spent years making this thing. If it doesn't use the scaling etc then it's because they'd made decision not to use it early, and went with it. They had more than enough time to implement it, if that early decision was different.

Sure, but DA:O was greenlit what, '05? That's a very different mindset to have, design wise, compared to what's acceptable in a 2012-2013 game. 

Modifié par In Exile, 30 août 2011 - 05:52 .

[alex90c]

In Exile wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I think this thread is perfect evidence that Bioware trying to take the best of both games is going to be much harder than it sounds; they're going to ****** off people on both sides with the compromises they make.

Really? To me it sounds like only one group is unhappy: the group that wants it to be just like in DA:O again. And it's obvious Bioware wrote off that group ever since they made DA2.

I'm referring to the entire balancing act which DA3 will be. This compromise has irked people who prefer being able to customise their companions, if they slow down combat that'll irk people who i.) liked the way it was and ii.) people who perhaps think it is still too fast and so on. Then there might be a case where Bioware makes a compromise someone likes for one thing, and then another compromise pisses them off.

[dheer]

Modifié par dheer, 30 août 2011 - 05:55 .

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

Really? I had no idea. Thanks for the info! This actually changes my view considerably.

That functionality was in the engine since DAO   if i'm not mistaken it's used to place the camera roughly at level of PC's head in the dialogues no matter their species, amongst other things.

edit:

Sure, but DA:O was greenlit what, '05? That's a very different mindset to have, design wise, compared to what's acceptable in a 2012-2013 game.

Generally yes, but that'll apply to any game engine. They all take years to complete, and you're effectively making guesses about what solutions are going to be practical and/or worth chasing, by the time you're done.

(and if your guesses turn out less than optimal then well, you're stuck with them for another few years before you can address it with new iteration)

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 août 2011 - 05:59 .

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...
Man, you sure are tossing this comment around  a lot on this thread, even though you haven't the first clue how many such outfits each companion will get.  For all we know, it could be a pitifully small number... like 3... one for each act.

Wait, is the liar calling me out? The person who said what Mike Laidlaw offered in the OP was idenrtical to DA2? That's funny. To prove a point, you can suddenly read and appreciate the depth of the OP? Well, colour me surprised. 

And I wouldn't call that visual customization.  And I certainly don't see it as anything to cheer about.

Good for you. Remind me where what you would call and what you would cheer about has to do with what I said?

The whole point, in case you missed it, was that what visual customization is to one person is not the same as to another person. 

And at some point, we're ALL going to have to take a step back and ask ourselves how  satisfied we're willing to be with such low budget corner-cutting  "compromises", when  such uncompromising epic games like Skyrim loom on  the horizion.

I think before that, we all need to stop acting like victims. And by we, I mean you. 

Edit: 

Let me quote my favourite bits:

Because it's not a change at all.   It's not even a reasonable  compromise.

It's like telling us that  a Warrior  will now be able to equip 2 weapons,  but that combat will still show that warrior swinging  one giant 2 handed sword.  

If this is what they mean by "encorporating the best of both games", then color me finished with  the DA franchise.  It's one thing to put out a  mediocre game, and quite another to  constantly  insult our intelligence at every turn  by claiming to be  making changes  but then refusing to deviate  one iota from that mediocre game's formula.

Yes, I certainly toss comments around, without bothering to focus on the substance of the initial statement by Bioware. I totally do that, and you totally don't. You win the internet. 

Modifié par In Exile, 30 août 2011 - 05:57 .

[John Epler]

Alright, let's tone down the rhetoric and bickering. If you'd like to discuss the ideas put forth earlier in this thread, please feel free to do so, but it's getting a bit too heated in here. Agree to disagree and all of that.

[Wulfram]

How about if each character had, say, three different models - with maybe a few different colour variants - and when you equipped a different piece of armour they picked the most appropriate of those?

So Isabela might have her current appearance, one incorporating some leather armour and one where she's wearing chain, Fenris might have his current looks, a full plate version and a light version.

(Also, Merrill's pretty heavily armoured really)

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...


Wait, is the liar calling me out? The person who said what Mike Laidlaw offered in the OP was idenrtical to DA2?

Are you trying to say it's not?

In DA2  your companions  had static gear.  You couldn't change the way they looked.

Will  DA3 be different in that regard?    uh-uh.   Read the OP.  And before you  come back  with  some worthless   rebuttal like  "but you can change the stats on the gear you liar!"  Just remember 2 things:   1) you could  change the stats on your companion outfits in  DA2 as well.  and 2) Many, MANY of us  don't, and never did, give a crap about the stats of Isabela's loin cloth anyway.  We cared about CUSTOMIZATION and  appearances that WE got to decide on for our party members-- which  we couldn't do in DA2

Modifié par Yrkoon, 30 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[ipgd]

Yrkoon wrote...

In Exile wrote...


Wait, is the liar calling me out? The person who said what Mike Laidlaw offered in the OP was idenrtical to DA2?

Are you trying to say it's not?

In DA2  your companions  had static gear.  You couldn't change the way they looked.

Will  DA3 be different in that regard?    uh-uh.   Read the OP.  And before you bore us all with worthless   rebuttals like  "but uh... you can change the stats on the gear you liar!"  Just remember one thing:  Many, MANY of us  don't, and never did, give a crap about the stats of Isabela's loin cloth.  We cared about CUSTOMIZATION and  appearances that WE got to choose.

People who did care about stats comprise a significant group. DA3 will be different in that regard, and that will matter to those people who do care about stats. Instead of only people who like unique armors being happy, people who like unique armors and people who like customizing stats will both be happy.

You still won't be happy, but to say it isn't a change from DA2 is not correct. This is a change that would double the quantity of happy groups. That's a pretty good change.

[DreGregoire]

At first when I read this I was all upset about it and couldn't really decide what upset me about it. And then I gave myself the time I needed to process what was being said.

I, of course, prefer being able to choose what my companions wear because it gives me a sense of providing for them or at least sharing the loot and I would often buy things specifically for them (saving up coin and all that). There is a conversation with a companion about it in DAO when a companion gives you a gift. Along the lines of "You give to me always, here's one gift for you." (I hope that wasn't too spoilerific).

I have to admit I enjoyed the characters having set appearances in DAII, that made them distinct, at first. It definately made sense for Aveline to always have her "set" armor on and it didn't bother me not being able to change it, because in reality she is what she is. Isabela's outfit didn't bother me at first either, like when you first meet her, or one other time, but I felt that once she began traveling with me, on land, her outfit just didn't make sense. Carver's gear was always odd from the start. What happened to his Ostagar armor? Destroyed? Here I am walking around as a mage in armorlike clothing and my brother is still in the shirt and pants he arrived in Kirkwall with (pre-deep roads of course). And the other companions having the same gear for six years was a bit irritating to me when I could change Hawke's clothing at will, I feel it made my noble Hawke look like an ungrateful smuck who couldn't be bothered to outfit his allies.

I do not enjoy my companions having to wear what every other dragon age player's companions have to wear (I've been known to modify their appearance as well).

So definately if Bioware chooses to maintain the iconic route, please give us a bone by making it possible for us to pick and choose between a set of visibly different outfits/armor for our companions and the ability to recolor (even if it's in the form of a toolset and not in game). Sometimes common sense needs to overpower the visual look, for instance when in battle it's not safe to be wearing cloth when you are a warrior that rushes in as a tank.

Is it possible to create an inventory that allows for two sets of outfits to be switched up like we were able to switch up weapons in DAO?

Okay I think that is all for now but don't be surprised if I edit this. I tend to do that.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 30 août 2011 - 06:41 .

[Sylvianus]

I didn''t remember many people only disturbed because of stats though in the last thread, I don't know where some did get that. It was about visual customization, ( stats included ) as a whole.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2011 - 06:21 .

[Ryzaki]

Eh.

Not happy but I really didn't expect anything else.

I do hope they bother giving the PC some iconic outfits since they're so hard up on them for the companions. I shouldn't get Hawke's iconic look at the 11th hour while everyone else has there's from the beginning.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[ipgd]

Sylvianus wrote...

I didn''t remember many people only disturbed because of stats though in the last thread, I don't know where some did get that. It was about visual customization, ( stats included ) as a whole.

I can personally confirm the existence of people whose primary concern is stat customization. They're real, I swear!

Fandango9641 wrote...

I look forward to adventuring with my one armed, barefoot, semi naked, tattoo covered, makeup wearing, man giant with keen anticipation. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay, Mike’s vision for the franchise is the absolute bestest!

Oh good, this thread was getting dull without you here to hobble together ridiculous straw men dressed up in quaint little ad hominem hats.

Modifié par ipgd, 30 août 2011 - 06:40 .

[Wulfram]

I'd prefer the PC never got an "iconic" look. It's annoying that all my Hawkes end up wearing more or less the same thing.

The best looking warrior armour is the stuff Hawke is wearing as soon as the (non-exaggerated) portion of the game starts, anyway.