1027 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

Beerfish wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Sigh. Why it needed to change in the first place is beyond me. I really don't get Bioware's new fascination with stripping their titles down to essentially be cinematic action games, with little choice either in general customization or plot choices or combat tactics involved. Obviously I'm just not their target audience anymore. Enjoy the casual crowd Bioware, I guess the hardcore RPG crowd will have to stick to CDPR, Bethesda and Obsidian for actual deep complex RPG's from here on out. It was nice while it lasted I suppose.

Nonsense.  Hardcore rpg does not = having a wide number of outfits.  I dare say games of the past that are 'beacons' of hard core rpgdom had little to no character and or companion customization.

To ask for more customization is fine but these dramatic posts are baloney for the most part.

1st person dungeon crawlers had it. I guess back then it was harder to do with 3rd person view, but for instance BG had it.

[willholt]

Never mind

Modifié par willholt, 30 août 2011 - 08:19 .

[Zanallen]

willholt wrote...

That person made a genuine comment about their opinion of the proposed function. There really isn't any reason for the snide remarks, is there?

Snarky is my dominant personality.

[Atakuma]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


Agreed. That looks like the overall impression. Instead of motivating BW to go into more customization it looks like people are more interested to get less of it and thus be part of the actual problem: Dumbing down... erm... streamlining and innovation.

That's laughable. You actually believe not being able to dress your companions is dumbing down? You've got back all your armor slots and statistical customization, and yet because you can't see the armor in game, it's dumbed down. That's just silliness.

Modifié par Atakuma, 30 août 2011 - 08:21 .

[Gunderic]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Sigh. Why it needed to change in the first place is beyond me. I really don't get Bioware's new fascination with stripping their titles down to essentially be cinematic action games, with little choice either in general customization or plot choices or combat tactics involved. Obviously I'm just not their target audience anymore. Enjoy the casual crowd Bioware, I guess the hardcore RPG crowd will have to stick to CDPR, Bethesda and Obsidian for actual deep complex RPG's from here on out. It was nice while it lasted I suppose.

You didn't even read the OP did you?

No I did. its just not the same not being able to find a kick ass new armor for MY party and outfit them how I see fit. Rather than static appearances that may or may not change. Guess people need static looks to identify with a companions personality these days or something.

Agreed. That looks like the overall impression. Instead of motivating BW to go into more customization it looks like people are more interested to get less of it and thus be part of the actual problem: Dumbing down... erm... streamlining and innovation.

Yeah, it kind of takes away the sense of discovery/satisfaction in finding loot for your companions. Imagine World of Warcraft with 4,5 item sets. Sure would save Blizzard a lot of money from having to design that stuff...

[Zanallen]

Gunderic wrote...

Yeah, it kind of takes away the sense of discovery/satisfaction in finding loot for your companions. Imagine World of Warcraft with 4,5 item sets. Sure would save Blizzard a lot of money from having to design that stuff...

As opposed to the constant recolors that Blizzard has been making? Or the ugly sets that are laughed at? You do realize that they are implementing a system where you can make whatever armor you are wearing look like a specific "iconic" set right?

[Gunderic]

Atakuma wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


Agreed. That looks like the overall impression. Instead of motivating BW to go into more customization it looks like people are more interested to get less of it and thus be part of the actual problem: Dumbing down... erm... streamlining and innovation.

That's laughable. You actually believe not being able to dress your companions is dumbing down? You've got back all your armor slots and statistical customization, and yet because you can't see the armor in game, it's dumbed down. That's just silliness.

That, and getting unlockable alternate outfits through plot progression ( or something else ).

[Gunderic]

Zanallen wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Yeah, it kind of takes away the sense of discovery/satisfaction in finding loot for your companions. Imagine World of Warcraft with 4,5 item sets. Sure would save Blizzard a lot of money from having to design that stuff...

As opposed to the constant recolors that Blizzard has been making? Or the ugly sets that are laughed at? You do realize that they are implementing a system where you can make whatever armor you are wearing look like a specific "iconic" set right?

B-Bioware game?

[Sylvianus]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Sigh. Why it needed to change in the first place is beyond me. I really don't get Bioware's new fascination with stripping their titles down to essentially be cinematic action games, with little choice either in general customization or plot choices or combat tactics involved. Obviously I'm just not their target audience anymore. Enjoy the casual crowd Bioware, I guess the hardcore RPG crowd will have to stick to CDPR, Bethesda and Obsidian for actual deep complex RPG's from here on out. It was nice while it lasted I suppose.

You didn't even read the OP did you?

No I did. its just not the same not being able to find a kick ass new armor for MY party and outfit them how I see fit. Rather than static appearances that may or may not change. Guess people need static looks to identify with a companions personality these days or something.

Agreed. That looks like the overall impression. Instead of motivating BW to go into more customization it looks like people are more interested to get less of it and thus be part of the actual problem: Dumbing down... erm... streamlining and innovation.

That's not really true.

There are those who says : WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DRESS OUR TEAM, THEY ARE ALIVE AND INDEPENDENT ! "

And I totally agree, never I will understand these people, the worse justification ever seen. To remove a development, which is a part of a rpg, for such a ridiculous thing, is beyond me.

And there are those who are concerned by the iconic look, ( body ) and apparently, that's not possible if we allow to dress as we want our characters. And I can understand as some like us who don't care about iconic look, who want freedom, that there are some who don't want to sacrifice this thing.

So, well, some choices must be made.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[ipgd]

Iconic armors are "dumbing down" because there has been a narrative constructed by Bioware's detractors, and all of their choices must fit into that narrative. Nevermind the fact this change would restore the full functionality of the complex, stat based RPG equipment DAO had -- acknowledging that doesn't fit with the narrative, so stats were secondary to the importance of being able to visually swap equipment all along.

And, of course, anyone who disagrees with the narrative is intellectually inferior and a card carrying member of the Call of Duty crowd.

[FieryDove]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

No I did. its just not the same not being able to find a kick ass new armor for MY party and outfit them how I see fit. Rather than static appearances that may or may not change. Guess people need static looks to identify with a companions personality these days or something.

We have had this discussion before about Morrigan. It hasn’t changed.
You couldn’t play a game without thong +10, string +100 or leather strap +25 admit it.

vania z wrote...
I have good(?) solution: companions have their special gear at home, but when in party wear anything you put on them.

I suggested that quite some time back but it still leaves players who want the iconic look out in the cold more than half the time.

dheer wrote...

My thoughts exactly.

Solution maybe?  Those that want iconic armor use it -there will be many sets for each companion or so people here are saying yes? And those that want to use dropped/bought gear and see it can, body model turns generic when that happens. (If that's the only thing the engine can do)

[In Exile]

Sylvianus wrote... 
There are those who says : WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DRESS OUR TEAM, THEy ARE ALIVE AND INDEPENDENT ! "

And I totally agree, never I will understand these people, the worse justification ever seen. To remove a development, which is a part of a rpg, for such a ridiculous thing, is beyond me.

It's no worse a justification than the argument that a feature has to be in an RPG because those are the kinds of features that used to be in an RPG in the past.

I think people would rather have outfits restricted in a way that's shown in game. So they'd be totally okay with people trying to equip NPCs however they want... but sometimes NPCs refuse. You know how they refuse to accept gifts in DA:O that are cutscene driven for other chars?

Well, I bet this crowd would argue that (for example) Alistair or Sten should turn town wearing clothes in battle, even if that's what the PC wants.

And there are those who are concerned by the iconic look, ( body ) and apparently, that's not possible if we allow to dress as we want our characters. And I can understand as some like us who don't care about iconic look, who want freedom, that there are some who don't want to sacrifice this thing.

So, well, some choices must be made.

I'd be fine with a perfect world compromise where we both get what we want, like with a "hide helmet" style toggle. But until the costs fall enough for how Bioware does things so that we can get multiple independent meshes, there have to be choices made. 

[In Exile]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Agreed. That looks like the overall impression. Instead of motivating BW to go into more customization it looks like people are more interested to get less of it and thus be part of the actual problem: Dumbing down... erm... streamlining and innovation.

That's silly. The system works exactly like DA:O. It's just the visual look that doesn't change. How can that be dumbing down? 

Though I'm not honestly suprised by the sentiment, since to at least some a big part of an RPG is it looking like it has an RPG interface, mechanics be damned. 

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...

I think the solution that would make the most people happy is to have it as Laidlaw described it, with a "current armor" option in the Wardrobe, among the various iconic appearances. So people who want an iconic appearance regardless of armor have that, or you can also have them look like whatever they're wearing.

That gets rid of the "what if I don't like the iconic armor's stats?" complaint, leaving only the issue of generic models and their drawbacks and how much work they would be.

It has one other problem: random body morphing. Like I said before:

I know some people want to say, "Who cares? I'm 100% fine with body morphing!"

Well, prior to DA2 someone might have said: "Who cares about area re-use? As long as we have more content, and the game is released faster, let them recycle as many areas as they want!" 

We all saw how that went. I'm not trying to compare your view to area re-use and say it would be anywhere near the issue. But for a company, having what could be a relatively sloppier product included on release, especially after the black eye that Bioware got for DA2 as a whole, is risky. 

[Sowtaaw]

In Exile wrote...


That's silly. The system works exactly like DA:O. It's just the visual look that doesn't change. How can that be dumbing down? 

Though I'm not honestly suprised by the sentiment, since to at least some a big part of an RPG is it looking like it has an RPG interface, mechanics be damned. 

That the problem the visuals will not change. if i want put plate armor i wanna see the plate and  not a generic "icon" armor

Modifié par Sowtaaw, 30 août 2011 - 08:45 .

[FieryDove]

In Exile wrote...

It has one other problem: random body morphing. Like I said before:

I know some people want to say, "Who cares? I'm 100% fine with body morphing!"

Well, prior to DA2 someone might have said: "Who cares about area re-use? As long as we have more content, and the game is released faster, let them recycle as many areas as they want!" 

We all saw how that went. I'm not trying to compare your view to area re-use and say it would be anywhere near the issue. But for a company, having what could be a relatively sloppier product included on release, especially after the black eye that Bioware got for DA2 as a whole, is risky. 

That's not really a fair comparison. Level design takes a lot of time. LOTS. It didn't bother me since I would rather have a decent length game for stories to unfold than a 10-15 hour quickie. But I am weird like that.

[In Exile]

FieryDove wrote...
That's not really a fair comparison. Level design takes a lot of time. LOTS. It didn't bother me since I would rather have a decent length game for stories to unfold than a 10-15 hour quickie. But I am weird like that.

I agree with you. that it isn't fair. I'm not trying to say they're the same. I'm just using an extreme example to show that the problems that developers face are greater than just offering a feature. The quality of the feature matters too. 

[ZeshinX]

Greatly appreciate you taking the time to share some insights and possible direction Mike.

I don't envy your position. I see both sides of this and agree with both. An iconic image only enhances an NPCs presence (Darth Vader without his iconic armor isn't Darth Vader). On the other hand, this isn't a movie, it's an interactive game. Players like more options, not less (in general).

The middle-ground you're looking in to seems like a pretty good compromise (as far as companion visuals vs. equipped items). While I agree with both sides, I agree more with being able to see the armor I equip on my companions. Iconic visuals are nice for an introduction and getting to know a character, but after that, I want free reign. Let the comic or novel or animated adaptations focus on the iconic look. The game should be about options, options and more options.

My 2 cents on the matter. I'm done with DA2, but I'm keeping an optimistic view of the future of the franchise.

[Sylvianus]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvianus wrote... 
There are those who says : WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DRESS OUR TEAM, THEy ARE ALIVE AND INDEPENDENT ! "

And I totally agree, never I will understand these people, the worse justification ever seen. To remove a development, which is a part of a rpg, for such a ridiculous thing, is beyond me.

It's no worse a justification than the argument that a feature has to be in an RPG because those are the kinds of features that used .

We are talking about a feature that has always been present in Bioware games. And has long been part of that style. If a feature needs to be removed that is for justifications that worth the sacrifice. Something was always there, people expect to find it again. This is normal and justified. yes, totally. We can not make judgments of value without examples and things of the past. There is no universal definition, so they have to refer to subjective views. And these views are based on concrete things.

To remove customization, make look bad the rpg depending on the other examples in the past. Comparisons are extremely important to be on the value of a current item. So that's totally justified if they think Bioware take the wrong way because they remove an important feature.

Obviously it's not only because they were present in the past, that people expect to see the customization in bioware games and this kind of games. But because they also have a definition of what should be a game like this, based also from their experience in the past. To each his opinions about it.

There were choices in the rpgs of the past, it will be linear in the future, no more choices, that is still an rpg ? People can think no,, that not an rpg anymore,if they compare to the past and not only to some definitions as well.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2011 - 09:03 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Atakuma wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


Agreed. That looks like the overall impression. Instead of motivating BW to go into more customization it looks like people are more interested to get less of it and thus be part of the actual problem: Dumbing down... erm... streamlining and innovation.

That's laughable. You actually believe not being able to dress your companions is dumbing down? You've got back all your armor slots and statistical customization, and yet because you can't see the armor in game, it's dumbed down. That's just silliness.

It removes part of the sastifaction. It's 2011, we're no longer limited in what we can display visually on screen with the hardware we currently have in computer games. It reeks of lazy programing and "streamlining" for the sake of a unique visual look.  Like I really need Isabella to look like a **** for the whole game in order to determine that Yes indeed, she is a ****.  Why remove staples of the genre just for the sake of it? It makes no logical sense and serves such a little purpose to begin with.

I realize making games is expensive these days, I realize we're not going to have 2 year + cycles every project, but at the rate that Bioware is going, I wouldn't be shocked to see them start pumping out a sequel every 16 to 18 months with little innovation and corner cutting (who wants to make bets now that DA3 recycles areas as well). I mean it's not like their way of story building in any title has been that drastically different or innovative over the last 10 years to begin with,  Main plot, 2 to 3 major plot quests, sprinkle in side quests here and there rinse repeat each project/property. Except now we have voiced over paraphrasing that has the player guessing at what Sheppard or Hawke or "Insert PC here"  That to me isn't roleplaying, it's somewhat interacting with a predetermined outcome.

Quite simply, Bioware does not seem to make the type of RPG's I want to play anymore if you can even call them that. Call it melodramatic, or whatever, but I will be voting with my wallet, and it's more than likely my wallet will be saying no going forward when it comes to BW titles.

[FieryDove]

In Exile wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
That's not really a fair comparison. Level design takes a lot of time. LOTS. It didn't bother me since I would rather have a decent length game for stories to unfold than a 10-15 hour quickie. But I am weird like that.

I agree with you. that it isn't fair. I'm not trying to say they're the same. I'm just using an extreme example to show that the problems that developers face are greater than just offering a feature. The quality of the feature matters too. 

Well you did a good job, that was extreme. lol

I have done level design so I know a small bit...I am kind of sensitive to it when I see people saying make 100 huge areas it's easy!

I also agree quality matters. But it seems many things were pruned down to basics, even in level design with exceptions of course. Pointing the camera up you can see billows of smoke in low town, stautes and such in other areas. Some of it was great but how many people did that? The stuff at eye-level was spartan. So where did the time go? I don't know.

[addiction21]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Quite simply, Bioware does not seem to make the type of RPG's I want to play anymore if you can even call them that. Call it melodramatic, or whatever, but I will be voting with my wallet, and it's more than likely my wallet will be saying no going forward when it comes to BW titles.

lol Deja Vu