1027 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
I am not interested in old school stuff (really, I couldn't care less - so spare me the lecture of the hardcore stuff, it is wasted on me), but I am interested in the previous title of the series. If DA:O allowed me a given method of customization, like collecting armor from loot, then I expect the next title to have at least that. If the armor found in loot is too generic and removing that option and replacing that by a single companion armor then that is not an improvement to the perceived "problem". And improvement would be to make sure there is more different armor to be found. An improvement would be to have quests related to armor in which lore would play a role in the story telling. An improvement would be to have armor shops with a wide variety of armor. Etc. Dream up something, but don't go backwards, because *that* is nonsense.

Whether or not a feature is good is the issue. I want unique equipment for each body. I want each NPC to have their own unique body shape that appears nowhere else in game, and to have armour they wear themselves instead of armour they steal from the dead or from caves. 

If there are merchants, I would like for the armour to be crafted & fttted in such a way that the look is unique for each NPC in the party. My improvement over DA:O keeps the statistical customization and allows us to equip whatever, but each NPCs visual apperance changes uniquely based on what they equip.

So in a perfect world, Alistair & Sten both wear plate, but the plate looks different on each as they each wear their "style" of plate, and they have one for each armour class and a unique texture for each armour. 

But as it stands, this system we have right now is much better than DA:O.

In the responses in this thread here I read people complaining about how generic DA:O armor was and that they didn't like the retexturing of the armor. Of course I agree with that. So instead of going for an even worse system where you have no option at all (or, in the case of ME2 from which the system came, just a retexture), BW needs to address that. Don't make those guys lazy. BW has currently an attitude of the less work the better, the less something it cost the better, and the faster development goes the better. I am not not interested in how much money they make. I am interested in great games that stun me. Afterall: I am a gamer. Not a stockholder.

You know what I don't care about? How much Bioware works. I only care about arguing for features I like. Right now, in this thread, our debate is about whether or not Mike's OP is a good thing. People talked about visual customization like DA:O. I think that's a bad feature. Full stop. So I'm arguing against that. Once I see this feature in action, I'll criticize it further. 

Modifié par In Exile, 30 août 2011 - 11:48 .

[ipgd]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Don't make those guys lazy. BW has currently an attitude of the less work the better, the less something it cost the better, and the faster development goes the better. I am not not interested in how much money they make. I am interested in great games that stun me. Afterall: I am a gamer. Not a stockholder.

Well, it's good to know you have intimate knowledge of the opinions, emotions and work schedules of all of the development team, which is a collectively homogenous entity that has only one kind of opinion and one kind of goal (naturally, the one that makes them look the worst). After all, their only prerogative is to make bad games so they get their bon-bon spending checks faster. There's no way any of them actually care about the quality of the games they create, given that the only metric of a good game is one that caters to what you want, personally.

Modifié par ipgd, 30 août 2011 - 11:58 .

[John Epler]

Last warning to cut out the attacks and bickering, folks.

This has become far more of a 'what? Your opinions are different than mine? I REFUSE TO ALLOW THAT' than any sort of discussion.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Seriously guys...Mike's already said the OP isn't set in stone. If enough people give reasonable alternatives that will make more people (or everyone) happy, maybe Bioware will put some alterations into their plans.

FWIW, I think the 'making all armour wearable by all 6 body types' argument could be ignored if we Bioware* put race or even gender restrictions to certain pieces of armour. One size does not fit all, if people want to argue realism so passionately.

*Edit

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 31 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

First of all, I think some of you have to understand that I am a fan of the series. I do like both DA:O and DA2. I played DA:O more often, because I love it. But I like DA2 enough to have finished it 4 times, so the game must be doing something right.

Also, I have resepect for a lot of the individual BW team members. I just happen to see a trend in the company as a whole that concerns me. And that's cost reduction and development time reduction. I have the impression that this has become a trend after ME1 and DA:O. I am sorry if I used harsh language in my previous post, but it was not meant to attack those team members. I know that many of them work very hard and I often see that they work long hours. What I call lazy has to do with the company policies and not with how hard the teams work.

I am fine with those who like the iconic look. However, I think it is a rationalization dreamed up by the marketing department to sell the following cost savings operation:

AngryFrozenWater wrote..

While looking at the changes in DA2 I found some interesting ways by which BW managed to reduce cost. Here is one of them. Some of you may have already seen it. Perhaps it's new to some of you. I'll probably post another one later.

Let me know what you think about it.

What it does is to try to explain how various design decisions work together to make the cost reduction the most effective.

Like mentioned by BW going back to fully customizable armor found in loot which can be used by both the PC and companions is a "mixed bag". I have given that some thought and it seems there is more to it than meets the eye.

There is a relation between the human only PC, companion armor, armor found in loot, and story and dialogue writing in DA2, and that's cost reduction. By using a human only PC the armor found in loot has to fit only a female or a male human. There is no need to make them fit for elves and dwarfs. The companion armor is a replacement for that. We saw only one outfit per companion to make it even more cost effective. Because there is a human only PC there is no need to develop the story line for non human origins. In fact there wasn't even a proper playable history of your family to begin with. There is also no need to write race specific dialogue when using a human only PC. It's likely that reaction dialogue is much more common, but that doesn't mean cutting race specific dialogue doesn't cut the cost. I take it that it is easier to make the cinematics when one has to deal with the height of just the human only PC. Again, maybe a small advantage, but it is likely to make the job easier and thus can be done faster. The actual impact of all that is hard to say, but the obvious advantages make it more than likely that the relation exists.

Chances are slim that DA3 will see multiple races for the PC just for the above mentioned reasons. There are great marking rationalizations for all that and we see that ended up as "the story didn't allow non-human races" and "the companions now look unique". Of course Hawke can be marketed as well.

Obviously it is possible to dream up the story and then decide to use multiple races for the PC or not. Chances are that it is unlikely we'll see multiple races for the PC, given the above advantages of cost reduction. About the uniqueness of the companion armor: Sure, there will be some people who are happy with how the the companions look. Perhaps some don't care at all and are in it for the combat only. Others, like me, don't think that filling 4 squares by buying or finding "upgrades" constitutes as meaningful customization. Of course BW knows this, and the 4 squares are just intended to ensure that "customization" exists.

I suspect that we will not return to the DA:O armor situation. The new method (pioneered by ME2) seems like it is here to stay. Maybe we will see a re-textured second armor. Perhaps even a DLC with companion armor. I guess that's the best we can hope for.

[Tommy6860]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Seriously guys...Mike's already said the OP isn't set in stone. If enough people give reasonable alternatives that will make more people (or everyone) happy, maybe Bioware will put some alterations into their plans.

FWIW, I think the 'making all armour wearable by all 6 body types' argument could be ignored if we Bioware* put race or even gender restrictions to certain pieces of armour. One size does not fit all, if people want to argue realism so passionately.

*Edit

Agreed, no matter how much I loved Origins over DA2, Sten being able to wear Zev's armor was jarring. Race specific (or even body size ranges specific) armors would be OK by me. As long as there can be variations to my companions wearing different sets special to them, especailly with armors having specific qualities, being useful for certain times (especailly battles). Now, I think making specific outfits for compaions that cannot be changed for when they are in certain venues (like Hawke's home or drinking at the bar) is very OK as well, it is a casual setting anyway. I know, with the different body shapes they had in DA2 this could be costly in dev time, so I understand that part. But, I would like to see Bioware buuild on that. If they won't, at least give us a toolset .

[DreGregoire]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

maybe Bioware will put some alterations into their plans.

FWIW, I think the 'making all armour wearable by all 6 body types' argument could be ignored if we Bioware* put race or even gender restrictions to certain pieces of armour. One size does not fit all, if people want to argue realism so passionately.

*Edit

Finding/looting special armours or outfits that only fit a particular companion would be nice, making them companion restricted. To me that would feel more like I was large and in charge and handing out gear as rewards for being my pc's companion. Because my pc is always the center of the universe, even my Hawke feels that way. I am not being sarcastic here in the least; I only tell you because generally I tend to be sarcastic. LOL.

[Tommy6860]

Zjarcal wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

*scratches head*

 

*scratches Brock's head some more*

Think Morrigan. There you go.

Except no Morrigan in Massive Armor.

I agree with this. I didn't like the "one size fits all". But, I would like to at least be able to choose a look of variable mage outfits to use on my companions who are mages. More specific, using the proper outfit with statistics and mods that are fitting for whatever battle they are in or are going to venture into, but with different looks. Like if taking on a lot of enemies who use flame elements for weapons, allow a mage set that has that elemental resistiance to whatever degree. I could live with like 3 or 4 choices only.

[billy the squid]

In Exile wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
I am not interested in old school stuff (really, I couldn't care less - so spare me the lecture of the hardcore stuff, it is wasted on me), but I am interested in the previous title of the series. If DA:O allowed me a given method of customization, like collecting armor from loot, then I expect the next title to have at least that. If the armor found in loot is too generic and removing that option and replacing that by a single companion armor then that is not an improvement to the perceived "problem". And improvement would be to make sure there is more different armor to be found. An improvement would be to have quests related to armor in which lore would play a role in the story telling. An improvement would be to have armor shops with a wide variety of armor. Etc. Dream up something, but don't go backwards, because *that* is nonsense.

Whether or not a feature is good is the issue. I want unique equipment for each body. I want each NPC to have their own unique body shape that appears nowhere else in game, and to have armour they wear themselves instead of armour they steal from the dead or from caves. 

If there are merchants, I would like for the armour to be crafted & fttted in such a way that the look is unique for each NPC in the party. My improvement over DA:O keeps the statistical customization and allows us to equip whatever, but each NPCs visual apperance changes uniquely based on what they equip.

So in a perfect world, Alistair & Sten both wear plate, but the plate looks different on each as they each wear their "style" of plate, and they have one for each armour class and a unique texture for each armour. 

But as it stands, this system we have right now is much better than DA:O.
 

Whether this system is good or not is debatable at best.

As to the unique body forms, I wouldn't assume that the form would be unique, in the singular sense, its more a practicality issue of time and resources, certainly a larger variation would be possible. But unique? Considering the body differentiation within DA2's characters and NPCs was not enormous and we appear to be working on a similar premise from the information given for DA3, nor any knowledge of the number of NPCs and development timetable is available so wouldn't hazard to guess if models would be unique.

Unique appearance does not mesh with the statistical manipulation, particularly if one say puts Alistair in massive plate mail, but he wears his scale mail that he was equipped with at the beginning of the game. It is not a perfect example, but I hope one can see what I am getting at.

If this could be countered in some way, by creating a unique armour representation for characters dependent on class and armour weight on the more generic armour, ie: standard massive plate, heavy chainmail etc, then this would go some way to alleviating the problem, although there is my prefrence towards the more utilitarian look of some of DAO's armours rather than the more stylised and somewhat strange designs. But, I won't digress into art style, yet. 

What I don't agree with is the removal of unique item sets of equipment, such as the Effort Armour for instance, as I don't see how this would create generic armour if the item set itself is presented as the only set of that particular armour in the game. Nor do I see the issue of such visual implementation as the armour of that size would inevitabley obscure the wearer's form to a certain degree, as such body models, become less of an issue in this case. For instance isabela wearing such an armour, may loose a cup size, but considering that level of armour is not going to have her assets bobing about in the breeze I don't see it as a particular problem, doesn't entirely make sense as she is a rogue, but if people want to stick her in plate armour, I wouldn't stop them, I would expect them not to complain that the body model doesn't show as well though, can't have you're cake and eat it, sort of situation. Unless the new art style has already been fixed by the devs, and as such stylisation of equipment to artificially fit forms takes precident, something I do not approve of.

What I do see as a potential problem is the lighter unique leather armour sets which should conform to the body, which is where you're points regarding model form comes in, and problems could start to arise here.

Modifié par billy the squid, 31 août 2011 - 12:41 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Atakuma wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Agreed. That looks like the overall impression. Instead of motivating BW to go into more customization it looks like people are more interested to get less of it and thus be part of the actual problem: Dumbing down... erm... streamlining and innovation.

That's laughable. You actually believe not being able to dress your companions is dumbing down? You've got back all your armor slots and statistical customization, and yet because you can't see the armor in game, it's dumbed down. That's just silliness.

Yes. And that has to do with the cost savings operation I wrote about above. If you still think that after reading that it is laugable then I am glad I was able to amuse you.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 31 août 2011 - 12:38 .

[seraphymon]

In Exile wrote...


Whether or not a feature is good is the issue. I want unique equipment for each body. I want each NPC to have their own unique body shape that appears nowhere else in game, and to have armour they wear themselves instead of armour they steal from the dead or from caves. 

If there are merchants, I would like for the armour to be crafted & fttted in such a way that the look is unique for each NPC in the party. My improvement over DA:O keeps the statistical customization and allows us to equip whatever, but each NPCs visual apperance changes uniquely based on what they equip.

So in a perfect world, Alistair & Sten both wear plate, but the plate looks different on each as they each wear their "style" of plate, and they have one for each armour class and a unique texture for each armour. 

But as it stands, this system we have right now is much better than DA:O.

 

Weren't you the one who whined saying you shouldn't say something is best or better without acknowledging that it is your opinion.

Anyways ive seen soo much back and forth from you and others and this thread trying to dissect every part of what should or shouldnt be a comprimise What is best or what someone gets what they want or how much work it would or wouldnt be.

Frankly i disagree with the OP and the direction it seems to be heading. I feel its just repeating the same problem the designers had with DAO. How they spend soo much time on visuals that if people dont pay attention why bother? Just like in DA2 with all these cool looking stuff, especially the item packs you would need 3 playthroughs just for the looks almost.

To me someone else already said a good idea or compromise. And it always seems like the best to me and thats having the choice. Such as some sort of toggle of wether you want them showing their unique appearance, or off and showing what you have equipped on them. Even if it does change the body appearance a bit.

Modifié par seraphymon, 31 août 2011 - 01:11 .

[ipgd]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am fine with those who like the iconic look. However, I think it is a rationalization dreamed up by the marketing department to sell the following cost savings operation:

It could be an elaborate conspiracy meant to obfuscate laziness, or it could be what they actually say it is. As someone who wanted unique companion designs before Bioware even moved in that direction (*hipster glasses*), I can indeed confirm that there are reasons to want this that are not "gosh my sausage fingers are just too heavy to type in that much code anymore". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and not a plot by greedy corporate overlords to pillage your wallet.

Modifié par ipgd, 31 août 2011 - 12:53 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

ipgd wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am fine with those who like the iconic look. However, I think it is a rationalization dreamed up by the marketing department to sell the following cost savings operation:

It could be an elaborate conspiracy meant to obfuscate laziness, or it could be what they actually say it is. As someone who wanted unique companion designs before Bioware even moved in that direction (*hipster glasses*), I can indeed confirm that there are reasons to want this that are not "gosh my sausage fingers are just too heavy to type in that much code anymore". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and not a plot by greedy corporate overlords to pillage your wallet.

I'm still wondering why Isabella needed to look like a **** for the entire game for people to get the idea, hey she's a **** in personality as well.

[ipgd]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'm still wondering why Isabella needed to look like a **** for the entire game for people to get the idea, hey she's a **** in personality as well.

Oh, goodie, **** shaming. Just what this thread needed more of.

I am going to tactfully decline to seriously respond to this in interest of not having this thread locked.

Modifié par ipgd, 31 août 2011 - 01:03 .

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'm still wondering why Isabella needed to look like a **** for the entire game for people to get the idea, hey she's a **** in personality as well.

It's been stated a thousand and two times, though here's a thing:
Same reason you have a unique avatar, you stand out in the crowd and makes you shine. For better or for worse, people will recognize that "Hey, that person posted in the thread!". It invokes emotion in the reader, more so than any blank face avatar given to everybody.

[Elhanan]

Check pls!

And before this one is locked, again I am encouraged to see the DA series moving forward. I prefer Fantasy to the other genre, so am especially glad to see this one being made so well.

[FieryDove]

ipgd wrote...

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and not a plot by greedy corporate overlords to pillage your wallet.

And sometimes it's not.

To the thread topic:
I really don't like my way or the highway statements, nor do I feel all or nothing is something we have to live with. I say allow both options. Toggle or whatever. That is the best of both worlds. imho

Modifié par FieryDove, 31 août 2011 - 01:12 .

[Dave of Canada]

Toggles aren't as easy as suggesting them and suddenly everything works out fine, they require a lot of work to create. Suggesting a toggle creates dead kittens.

[Maconbar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Toggles aren't as easy as suggesting them and suddenly everything works out fine, they require a lot of work to create. Suggesting a toggle creates dead kittens.

Were the dead kittens in DA:O or DA:2?

[Zanallen]

Maconbar wrote...

Were the dead kittens in DA:O or DA:2?

In between. Asking for toggles killed Ser Pounce-A-Lot.

[Dave of Canada]

Thousands died whenever somebody suggested a toggle.

"Make a toggle so players can pick between DA:O or DA2 combat!"
"Make a toggle so we can play voiced or silent protagonist!"
"Make a toggle for friendly fire!"

[FieryDove]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Toggles aren't as easy as suggesting them and suddenly everything works out fine, they require a lot of work to create.

Not my problem. Maybe someone should ask EA for more time/budget to make an RPG with all the bells and whistles.

Suggesting a toggle creates dead kittens.

They ran out of those during DA2's development. 191 toggles were requested by the fanbase.

[Sylvianus]

Wow. In Exile. :huh:

Everything you have done is only to scratch the surface and respond to rhetoric, to simplify everything, your response has no substance. I do not know if it's because you used to do that, or if is it just because you're upset in this thread , but realize that you do more rhetoric than to express a vision. The goal is not necessarily to devour the opponent with just rethoric, which serves no purpose but to explain his thinking.

Be aware of your answer please. And I don't count the first anwer you made to me.


" t that isn't customization to them. You're trying to skew the debate. "


" People shouldn't know this. They should do the research. Pure and simple. If people buy a game based only on the company, I honestly hope they get cheated every single time. That kind of laziness deserves as much. "


" The others are not you either. "

"But we are speaking about justification in general. And in general, "let's keep it the same because it was always like that!" is a bad justification. "Let's keep it the same because everyone likes that!" is a better argument, but that's totally independent of how it was done. "


Yes, absolutely. For one, for the player, the research needs to be done. If you buy a game without doing the research, you deserve to be cheated.

More generally, for the designer, a feature should never be included just because the previous version had it and no one complained.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 31 août 2011 - 01:20 .

[Maconbar]

Zanallen wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Were the dead kittens in DA:O or DA:2?

In between. Asking for toggles killed Ser Pounce-A-Lot.

Isn't that what drove Anders insane, triggering events that shook Thedas?

My guess that toggling between a unique body to a generic body would be substially more resource intensive than most of the options/ideas that have been proposed.