1027 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Unique body models didn't seem to me to amount to much more than Isabela having big breasts, so I'm not really enthralled with that as an advantage

Modifié par Wulfram, 31 août 2011 - 07:13 .

[bEVEsthda]

ipgd wrote...
I'm not sure how exactly to make a statement of "my opinions exist" more convincing than, you know, being the person with that opinion and trying to explain why someone would prefer unique companion models, as a person who prefers unique companion models.

In this particular case, in Bioware's current planning for how to do DA3, for the tools they have/intend to use, there may or may not exist a default reason why unique body models wouldn't be compatible with equipable armour. But I don't see that we know this.

If you would really rather believe that I and all people who prefer unique companion models are mindless sycophants purposefully deceiving ourselves in order to cover up EA's evil corporate money machine, there's not much of a discussion to be had here.

- Oh, Really...   (hint: In a discussion - never try put words in others mouths)

Yet again, cosplay was not cited as a reason. It was used as "an illustrative example of the effect of the shift towards a more distinctive art style". Chris Priestly is also not, as far as I know, actually involved in the creative development process on DA2.

And "distinctive art style" has nothing to do with cosplay. Iconic looks have, but that's another thing. It's still a reason. As a desired effect. Look, I know that marketers and advertisers love this **** (wrote the asterix explicitly myself, to save the autocensor the work ), but I haven't seen any suggestion from Bioware of why preserving looks across gamers and "distinctive art style" would improve the game or benefit gamers in any way. I do know that they want this, but not any reasonable why. If anyone from Bioware have said anything about this, beyond Chris Priestly's cosplay, please point me.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 31 août 2011 - 07:23 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Wulfram wrote...

Unique body models didn't seem to me to amount to much more than Isabela having big breasts, so I'm not really enthralled with that as an advantage

- Isabela has boots that go past the knee
- Shale exists
- Varric has Bianca and chest hair
- Fenris and Jack have tattoos
- Miranda has Dat Ass

[Zanallen]

Wulfram wrote...

Unique body models didn't seem to me to amount to much more than Isabela having big breasts, so I'm not really enthralled with that as an advantage

It is also Anders being noticeably thinner than either Hawke or Carver. And it can be so much more. We could have companions of various heights or weights, one-armed companions, oddly shaped darkspawn, etc. Anything that is not generic male or female humans, elves, dwarves or kossith.

[Wulfram]

Zanallen wrote...

It is also Anders being noticeably thinner than either Hawke or Carver.

You call this noticeable?

And it can be so much more. We could have companions of various heights or weights, one-armed companions, oddly shaped darkspawn, etc. Anything that is not generic male or female humans, elves, dwarves or kossith.

Well, there wasn't anything like that in DA2.  They all looked like generic members of their race.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dark_Savant wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

There's no general reason you can't have unique body models and armour choices. There may be an existing technical reason in the engine they are planning to use. I don't know that.

That’s the million dollar question isn’t it? Do the reasons for dropping Origins style party customisation extend beyond Biowares desire to shift things in the direction of cosplayable icons?

No it's just that it's oh so "too much effort/too short a dev cycle,  so its now "iconic characters must look the same for 40 hours" because like was mentioned plenty of times prior to release of DA2, the clothes make the character, not their personality apparently. Stupid design decision is stupid.

Its a new rule for RPG's doncha know, a character can't be an iconic figure without looking the same, always. /face palm

[Zanallen]

Wulfram wrote...

You call this noticeable?

Yes, even in that front facing picture, I can see that Anders has thinner arms than your mage Hawke.

Well, there wasn't anything like that in DA2.  They all looked like generic members of their race.

Except Isabela, right? And Varric looks quite different from the other dwarves. And still, going back to generic bodies completely negates the possibility of differences in companions of the same race and gender.

[Zanallen]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

No it's just that it's oh so "too much effort/too short a dev cycle,  so its now "iconic characters must look the same for 40 hours" because like was mentioned plenty of times prior to release of DA2, the clothes make the character, not their personality apparently. Stupid design decision is stupid.

Its a new rule for RPG's doncha know, a character can't be an iconic figure without looking the same, always. /face palm

Except Laidlaw has already said that he wants to add more appearances per companion.

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

You call this noticeable?

yes

[Dark_Savant]

Wulfram wrote...

Unique body models didn't seem to me to amount to much more than Isabela having big breasts, so I'm not really enthralled with that as an advantage

I see the value in having unique character models and am all for their inclusion in DA3. I’m also advocating the return of Origins style party customisation to the franchise. Indeed, contrary to the opinion of those who worry more about Biowares bottom line than they do their fellow forumites, I don’t see the two as being mutually exclusive and have no problem asking for both. I mean, if DA3 really is to provide the “best of both” Bioware should make every effort to get it done.

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...

What Mike has laid out is that a companion will have gear slots akin to what the PC has. Then they will have an appearance slot that overrides the gear slots. The appearance slot is a single item that counts for a whole suit. It has no stats and just changes the appearance of the companion. You will gain new appearance items, unique per companion, by completing sidequests, story progression or romancing.

...And we basically have Heavy Metal's  infamous Magic Thong Armour. Which I wouldn't mind in a completely different game, with a different mood, in a different universe.
Right now though, I'm not so cool with not having looks of armour reflect their stats. Can't we have any suggestion of realism left in DA?

Pros: Unique appearance for each companion, full stat customization
Cons: Limited visual customization

What people have been asking for in this thread is possibly a toggle option that turns off the appearance slot so the current gear is what appears on the companion. I think this might be expensive or time consuming with having to mesh all armors to all companions plus their unique armor meshes. There is also the issue with the companion's unique body model being swapped for the generic model.

Pros: Complete stat and visual customization, iconic armors
Cons: Increased cost and time would take away from other aspects of the game, model swapping could be an annoyance and be considered another anti-Bioware rallying point, hampers character design and forces companions to be generally build around the generic model.

Other people have suggest a Morrigan's armor type solution, which would make the iconic armors only good for certain class builds and therefore not at all useful for a good number of people. Others have discussed having the equipped armors have some sort of visual change on the set appearance, something that Mike said they are already looking into.

((Note, I might have missed some parts of each argument))

The cost issue might exist, in this particular case, depending upon how Bioware have approached this. And in that case, I suppose we would have to bow down to that the choice stands between unique body models and free suitups. But in an ideal case, there would be no such issues. And having seen no reasons stated, I'm currently not convinced Bioware is simply not just going this iconic looks road just because they still basically want DA3=DA2:2

[alex90c]

ipgd wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You call this noticeable?

yes

maybe we should get our rulers against our monitors and measure the exact length

...that went somewhere horrible

Modifié par alex90c, 31 août 2011 - 07:51 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

ipgd wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You call this noticeable?

yes

Holy nitpicking batman. Seriously? Some of you are ridiculously anal.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Zanallen wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

No it's just that it's oh so "too much effort/too short a dev cycle,  so its now "iconic characters must look the same for 40 hours" because like was mentioned plenty of times prior to release of DA2, the clothes make the character, not their personality apparently. Stupid design decision is stupid.

Its a new rule for RPG's doncha know, a character can't be an iconic figure without looking the same, always. /face palm

Except Laidlaw has already said that he wants to add more appearances per companion.

Best guess, it'll be like ME2, same outfit, slightly different color scheme.  watch me get so excited.. 

[Zanallen]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Best guess, it'll be like ME2, same outfit, slightly different color scheme.  watch me get so excited.. 

Then don't buy the game. I'm sorry that you might not get to play dress up with your dollies. However, I don't much care. I have full stat customization and that is all that really matters in terms of gameplay.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Zanallen wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Best guess, it'll be like ME2, same outfit, slightly different color scheme.  watch me get so excited.. 

Then don't buy the game. I'm sorry that you might not get to play dress up with your dollies. However, I don't much care. I have full stat customization and that is all that really matters in terms of gameplay.

I doubt I will. I am however going to voice my displeasure early enough in hopes they reconsider this "iconic" foolishness when it comes to static looking companions.

[Zanallen]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I doubt I will. I am however going to voice my displeasure early enough in hopes they reconsider this "iconic" foolishness when it comes to static looking companions.

Oh please. Just admit that you won't be happy until DA3 plays and looks exactly like DA:O. Screw compromise, screw best of both worlds. If it isn't exactly like Origins you'll just **** and moan and whine, whine, whine.

[Wulfram]

ipgd wrote...


yes

Really?



Noticeable?  Maybe there if you look closely and are told about it, but noticeable?

Modifié par Wulfram, 31 août 2011 - 08:10 .

[rak72]

Edit nm

Modifié par rak72, 31 août 2011 - 08:11 .

[bEVEsthda]

Wulfram wrote...

ipgd wrote...


yes

Really?



Noticeable?  Maybe there if you look closely and are told about it, but noticeable?

Actually, it seems ipgd chose a crop from a picture with a perspective effect.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 31 août 2011 - 08:16 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Zanallen wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I doubt I will. I am however going to voice my displeasure early enough in hopes they reconsider this "iconic" foolishness when it comes to static looking companions.

Oh please. Just admit that you won't be happy until DA3 plays and looks exactly like DA:O. Screw compromise, screw best of both worlds. If it isn't exactly like Origins you'll just **** and moan and whine, whine, whine.

I can miss patronizing insults like a toothache. Goodbye.

[Gunderic]

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Yes, the writers don't have control over this most likely; I'm not blaming them and it's not their responsibility. So I'm just going to blame Mike Laidlaw/EA and whoever else is in charge.

I'm not saying it's not the writers' fault. I am saying that the people who are in charge are probably not taking money out of the writing department to fund companion armor models. If it cost more money (and I don't know exactly how much time/money it costs, because I don't work there, and neither do you), it would likely come out of somewhere else in the art department before it came out of the writing department. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that increased focus on companion model individuality, specifically, has any negative affect on writer resources whatsoever. You are fabricating this.

And I don't remember saying that they took money from the writing team (or at least, not directly). I'm blaming the people who allocate funds to design teams, and how the designers in charge decide to use that money (EA/Laidlaw). I believe those resources could be spent elsewhere.

Each companion had about the same number of lines as each companion in Origins did. As Gaider has stated an innumerable number of times at this point. Or are you going to move the goalposts from 'companion writing having less focus' to 'THE WHOLE GAME'S WRITING IS WORSE!!!!'?

Yes well, Brent Knowles has stated that the whole game had about six hundred thousand words less, so I'm going with that since it fits the bigger picture without colouring the truth.

And yes, the writing was pretty bad for Dragon Age 2. Even David Gaider said he could have presented the story better, if I remember right. And then you get Mike Laidlaw writing things like "There's a better game than both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 out there, and I'll be damned if the talented folks at BioWare don't find it" out of desperation, after personally confessing that he's been absent for months since he couldn't handle the criticism. It's a mess.

How on earth do visual character designs 'dumb down' anything? Are you even thinking about the words you are using or are you just repeating whatever combatative buzzword first comes to mind? Can we stop using all terms to mean "anything I don't like". It makes language bothersome. Back in my day words used to mean things.

It dumbs down the quality of the game. There's no element of discovery, etc. when finding new loot . They are restricting interaction with the game world; I'd say that's dumbing down. And you said that developing more loot too hard/unrealistic for them, so it makes their work easier.

And I'm going out on a limb by saying that if they keep this new system, there's also probably going to be an auto-equip button or something because some people might get confused that their new armour doesn't show (or don't like to keep track of updating their gear).

What?

A preference for visually distinctive characters is part of the reason they made this change. It is not the defintive, all encompasing whole of this change. There are many other reasons to prefer this method, which I have given examples of countless of times. You can choose to ignore all of that and laser focus on the things you find easier to make fun of, but that is an incredibly simplistic approach to an argument.

Why not have iconic weapons then, too? Or iconic items for the PC? Some people might want developers to strike a more 'shifting' balance between customizing and having unique armour models for their characters. Are you saying you're speaking for them, and are you assuming good faith? The way KOTOR 1, 2 handles this works just as well, and they both have superior storytelling to Dragon Age 2, and were worked on by better writers.

Christ Priestly cited cosplay as an illustrative example of the effect of the shift towards a more distinctive art style, and you are misrepresentating what he said because "we did this because of cosplay!!!" is easier to ridicule.

They're also doing this so they can release the inevitable item pack sets, and Collector's Edition exclusives. And because it's less work that way.

Modifié par Gunderic, 31 août 2011 - 08:27 .

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...


Really?

Noticeable?  Maybe there if you look closely and are told about it, but noticeable?

yes

bEVEsthda wrote...
Actually, it seems ipgd chose a crop from a picture with a perspective effect.

I chose a crop from a picture where they were spaced in the middle of equidistant tiles, with the camera parallel. I can take 50 more sets of screenshots if you are really that intent on being contradictory.

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...
Then don't buy the game. I'm sorry that you might not get to play dress up with your dollies. However, I don't much care. I have full stat customization and that is all that really matters in terms of gameplay.

Zanallen wrote...
Oh please. Just admit that you won't be happy until DA3 plays and looks exactly like DA:O. Screw compromise, screw best of both worlds. If it isn't exactly like Origins you'll just **** and moan and whine, whine, whine.

Why do you keep making these pointless, irrelevant, but offensive posts again and again, against people who don't like DA2?

(Yes, you and your compatriotes seem favored by the moderators, but it's not really helping feedback)
I'm not saying Cos' posts are so pleasant, but you can just let them stand for themselves. Besides, they are perfectly understandable since there are such things as disappointment.

[Dark_Savant]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Yes, you and your compatriotes seem favored by the moderators.

Certainly seems that way.