1027 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Filament wrote...

It's not the best of both worlds... it's the best of one world (unique appearances) and a half-measure of the other (statistical but not visual customization). You might say having full customization would hinder the unique appearance aspect slightly (though I think that effect is being exaggerated)... maybe true. Maybe there is no "best of both worlds" here.

It's certainly "better" than DA2 where you could not equip various stat-boosting equipment on your characters. I think it's clear that they don't want to go back to DA:O in terms of customisation for companions.

Isabela doesn't need to be wearing chainmail outfits and Varric doesn't need to be wearing mage robes.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
unless they give me a mahogany desk made from the trees that are on Malchior 7 that stand 300 feet tall and breathe fire, I'm not paying for an iconic outfit pack.

Not even "sexy iconic outfit pack"?

Not even.

Now if the sexy outfits came pre-equipped and Bioware sent me the Mahogany desk forged from fire-breathing gargantuan trees that can bend the fabric of the universe itself, I'd consider it. But they'd have to be incredibly sexy outfits.

And it wouldn't be too hard. They just need to steal it from King Yemma. Or go to Malchior 7.

[Darth Krytie]

I think is a great compromise. I like unique appearances, but I want to change follower stats and toggle appearances, too. I'm officially pleased. This is exactly what I wanted to hear.

And, yes, I'd buy item packs with extra unique armour, so long as there's a reasonable amount to be had in the game proper. I don't want to feel like I'm buying what ought to be in the game already.

[hoorayforicecream]

alex90c wrote...

Filament wrote...

It's not the best of both worlds... it's the best of one world (unique appearances) and a half-measure of the other (statistical but not visual customization). You might say having full customization would hinder the unique appearance aspect slightly (though I think that effect is being exaggerated)... maybe true. Maybe there is no "best of both worlds" here.

How do we lose anything if we allow "iconic" appearances and apperance customisation w/visual effect? We had the choice with Morrigan, and yet plenty of people kept her in those robes while others equipped her with heavy plate and whatnot. Everybody wins.

Designers lose out on the ability for characters to comment on the follower appearances. If Varric is wearing heavy plate armor and a helmet, how does the player react when Isabela comments about Varric's chest hair?

[Sabariel]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Filament wrote...

It's not the best of both worlds... it's the best of one world (unique appearances) and a half-measure of the other (statistical but not visual customization). You might say having full customization would hinder the unique appearance aspect slightly (though I think that effect is being exaggerated)... maybe true. Maybe there is no "best of both worlds" here.

How do we lose anything if we allow "iconic" appearances and apperance customisation w/visual effect? We had the choice with Morrigan, and yet plenty of people kept her in those robes while others equipped her with heavy plate and whatnot. Everybody wins.

Designers lose out on the ability for characters to comment on the follower appearances. If Varric is wearing heavy plate armor and a helmet, how does the player react when Isabela comments about Varric's chest hair?

"Oo, I wonder if she's seen him naked...?" is how I would react

Though banter about how lovely Isabela's ass looks in her dress/skirt isn't all that important anyway. There are many other things to banter about...

Modifié par Sabariel, 29 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

It's a hell of a lot better than what we had in DA2, so i'm cool with it. Just as long as the "iconic" appearence changes aren't just colour changes...

[KnightofPhoenix]

alex90c wrote...
How do we lose anything if we allow "iconic" appearances and apperance customisation w/visual effect? We had the choice with Morrigan, and yet plenty of people kept her in those robes while others equipped her with heavy plate and whatnot. Everybody wins.

The problem is that Morrigan's starting robes were stastically weak, so I personally was forced to tolerate that because I can't stand making her wear something else. I had to tolerate her weak stats until I got the Robe of posession. With the new system, that would no longer be a problem.

And it has a lot of opportunities. I *hated* the fact that Morrigan wore that side boob thing in the Sacred Ashes quest. And yet I could not abide dressing her up in anything else. With this new system, perhaps I could dress her up in a more winter appropriate version of her outfit that is still unique to her.
Also, they could take into account passage of time as well.

Of course I understand the frustration. It may look like the devs hand holding you and imposing what they want. And to an extent, that's true (though less than DA2). But it is something I do not mind. I want companions to be more independent and unique (just put more effort in their looks). I will not miss dressing companions up. Plus honestly, making Sten wear dwarven or even human armor annoyed me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Filament wrote...

It's not the best of both worlds... it's the best of one world (unique appearances) and a half-measure of the other (statistical but not visual customization). You might say having full customization would hinder the unique appearance aspect slightly (though I think that effect is being exaggerated)... maybe true. Maybe there is no "best of both worlds" here.

How do we lose anything if we allow "iconic" appearances and apperance customisation w/visual effect? We had the choice with Morrigan, and yet plenty of people kept her in those robes while others equipped her with heavy plate and whatnot. Everybody wins.

Designers lose out on the ability for characters to comment on the follower appearances. If Varric is wearing heavy plate armor and a helmet, how does the player react when Isabela comments about Varric's chest hair?

I'm sure she would've seen it before then, but you do have a point.

Now, if the armor we equip could maybe add a few things to their unique appearance, that's not too bad. Like maybe if you add some heavy plate to Varric, his unique look has a bit of a metal plate on top of the fabric.

[Lenimph]

The banter about Merrill dropping marbles in Isabela's boots in Legacy was nothing less then amazing and this would have never happened without their iconic appearances.

Modifié par Lenimph, 29 août 2011 - 06:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

I think the closest we'd be able to get to pleasing both worlds wouldn't really please one, which would be to have armor change visually the people but not deviate them from their standard outfit.

For example:
Isabela is wearing nothing? Basic gear.
Isabela is wearing light armor? Maybe add a bigger glove, a bit of padding around the knees / elbows.
Isabela is wearing medium armor? Expand the glove / paddings to look more protective.
Isabela is wearing heavy armor? Add some plating around her clothes, maybe something similar to the chainmail Bethany wears.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 août 2011 - 06:02 .

[Nerdage]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

alex90c wrote...

How do we lose anything if we allow "iconic" appearances and apperance customisation w/visual effect? We had the choice with Morrigan, and yet plenty of people kept her in those robes while others equipped her with heavy plate and whatnot. Everybody wins.

Designers lose out on the ability for characters to comment on the follower appearances. If Varric is wearing heavy plate armor and a helmet, how does the player react when Isabela comments about Varric's chest hair?

Well, they don't. When you fist meet them and when they're 'off duty' they could still be wearing their pre-made armour, so the player knows what they're talking about, what their "iconic look" is. 

And honestly I'll assume the risk of banters not working quite as well if it allows me to pick their armour. Leliana talking about Morrigan's appearance, for example, she mentions her wearing "rags" even if she's in robes at the time, but we all know what she was talking about. It's not affecting you if you want to keep the pre-made look, but if that's the only price I have to pay then I'm fine with it.

Modifié par nerdage, 29 août 2011 - 06:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

I don't think anyone in the thread is asking for iconic appearances to be removed.

Is it feasible to have both and have a toggle (or how practical is it)? I don't know, genuinely curious.

@ Dave
Yea I had something similar in mind.
Though I am not sure how that would apply to mages.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Sabariel wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Filament wrote...

It's not the best of both worlds... it's the best of one world (unique appearances) and a half-measure of the other (statistical but not visual customization). You might say having full customization would hinder the unique appearance aspect slightly (though I think that effect is being exaggerated)... maybe true. Maybe there is no "best of both worlds" here.

How do we lose anything if we allow "iconic" appearances and apperance customisation w/visual effect? We had the choice with Morrigan, and yet plenty of people kept her in those robes while others equipped her with heavy plate and whatnot. Everybody wins.

Designers lose out on the ability for characters to comment on the follower appearances. If Varric is wearing heavy plate armor and a helmet, how does the player react when Isabela comments about Varric's chest hair?

"Oo, I wonder if she's seen him naked...?" is how I would react

Though banter about how lovely Isabela's ass looks in her dress/skirt isn't all that important anyway. There are many other things to banter about...

It totally changes the entire context of the banter though. The whole thing was about Varric catching Isabela staring at his chest, and even uses the "My eyes are up here" line. That doesn't make a lick of sense if he's fully covered up, and is wearing generic armor. You lose the comments on Fenris' lyrium tattoos and Isabela's boots. Future characters may have interesting scars, specific physical features, or deformities, but generic armors make all that impossible as well. You may not think that sort of thing is important, but the designers clearly do.

[alex90c]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Designers lose out on the ability for characters to comment on the follower appearances. If Varric is wearing heavy plate armor and a helmet, how does the player react when Isabela comments about Varric's chest hair?

how often does that even happen? I only remember a few moments in ME2 for example when clothing was commented on like Kasumi on Haestrom or Enyala commenting on Miranda's catsuit but that's pretty much it. Didn't really add much.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The problem is that Morrigan's starting robes were stastically weak, so I personally was forced to tolerate that because I can't stand making her wear something else. I had to tolerate her weak stats until I got the Robe of posession. With the new system, that would no longer be a problem.

And it has a lot of opportunities. I *hated* the fact that Morrigan wore that side boob thing in the Sacred Ashes quest. And yet I could not abide dressing her up in anything else. With this new system, perhaps I could dress her up in a more winter appropriate version of her outfit that is still unique to her.
Also, they could take into account passage of time as well.

Of course I understand the frustration. It may look like the devs hand holding you and imposing what they want. And to an extent, that's true (though less than DA2). But it is something I do not mind. I want companions to be more independent and unique (just put more effort in their looks). I will not miss dressing companions up. Plus honestly, making Sten wear dwarven or even human armor annoyed me.

What if they just had that improve with level-up thing they added in DA2, for Morrigan's robes? I can understand the rationale behind the follower outfits stuff Bioware is doing, it just feels like they're screwing up character customisation just so we can have "iconic" appearances which get old after five minutes. And yes, before anyone whips out the "durrrr hyperbole", yes I'm exaggerating.

[Sabariel]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Filament wrote...

It's not the best of both worlds... it's the best of one world (unique appearances) and a half-measure of the other (statistical but not visual customization). You might say having full customization would hinder the unique appearance aspect slightly (though I think that effect is being exaggerated)... maybe true. Maybe there is no "best of both worlds" here.

How do we lose anything if we allow "iconic" appearances and apperance customisation w/visual effect? We had the choice with Morrigan, and yet plenty of people kept her in those robes while others equipped her with heavy plate and whatnot. Everybody wins.

Designers lose out on the ability for characters to comment on the follower appearances. If Varric is wearing heavy plate armor and a helmet, how does the player react when Isabela comments about Varric's chest hair?

"Oo, I wonder if she's seen him naked...?" is how I would react

Though banter about how lovely Isabela's ass looks in her dress/skirt isn't all that important anyway. There are many other things to banter about...

It totally changes the entire context of the banter though. The whole thing was about Varric catching Isabela staring at his chest, and even uses the "My eyes are up here" line. That doesn't make a lick of sense if he's fully covered up, and is wearing generic armor. You lose the comments on Fenris' lyrium tattoos and Isabela's boots. Future characters may have interesting scars, specific physical features, or deformities, but generic armors make all that impossible as well. You may not think that sort of thing is important, but the designers clearly do.

Then don't make direct mentions like "my eyes are up here", change the wording a bit. Fenris' glowing tattoos, Isabela's hooker boots, and Varric's chest chair could all be seen in a casual iconic outfit. In the field, have a banter about how cool Isabela's casual iconic hooker boots are or say "Wow, Fenris, I can see your tattoos through your armor!" or "Gee, Varric, it's a shame your lovely chest hair is covered by that armor! I can't wait to get back to the Hanged Man so I can see it again!" They're not limited.


Iconic?

Modifié par Sabariel, 29 août 2011 - 06:10 .

[Lenimph]

nerdage wrote...

Well, they don't. When you fist meet them and when they're 'off duty' they could still be wearing their pre-made armour, so the player knows what they're talking about, what their "iconic look" is. 

And honestly I'll assume the risk of banters not working quite as well if it allows me to pick their armour. Leliana talking about Morrigan's appearance, for example, she mentions her wearing "rags" even if she's in robes at the time, but we all know what she was talking about. It's not affecting you if you want to keep the pre-made look, but if that's the only price I have to pay then I'm fine with it.

 

She doesn't just mention her "rags"... she talks about getting her out of those rags and giving her a makeover.  And if you have her wearing decent looking set or robes it doesn't fit well within concept.  Plus the breast staring...

[Nerdage]

Lenimph wrote...

The banter about Merrill dropping marbles in Isabela's boots in Legacy was nothing less then amazing and this would have never happened without their iconic appearances.

She still owns the boots even if she weren't wearing them at the time, that conversation could still have hapened. 

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It totally changes the entire context of the banter though. The whole thing was about Varric catching Isabela staring at his chest, and even uses the "My eyes are up here" line. That doesn't make a lick of sense if he's fully covered up, and is wearing generic armor. You lose the comments on Fenris' lyrium tattoos and Isabela's boots. Future characters may have interesting scars, specific physical features, or deformities, but generic armors make all that impossible as well. You may not think that sort of thing is important, but the designers clearly do.

You can still stare longingly at someone's chest when it's covered up...

Besides, like I said, I'm willing to assume the risk. I'm not sure why you're so against an optional feature you wouldn't use because you wouldn't like it. Others would like it, and it doesn't affect your gameplay, so what's the problem?

[KnightofPhoenix]

alex90c wrote...

What if they just had that improve with level-up thing they added in DA2, for Morrigan's robes? I can understand the rationale behind the follower outfits stuff Bioware is doing, it just feels like they're screwing up character customisation just so we can have "iconic" appearances which get old after five minutes. And yes, before anyone whips out the "durrrr hyperbole", yes I'm exaggerating.

With the new system, I feel it gives me more opportunities. Say I want Morrigan to specialize in fire spells, but I do not want to change her outfit. I can statistically modify her to deal extra fire damage, without changing her appearance (an example...why does it always have to be Morrigan ).


Now of course, I am expecting that they put a lot of effort and attention to detail with those outfits. And we still have some customization, though hopefully the options we have are actually different even if they do not change the overall tone (say if Morrigan, it would still have feathers). If an iconic appearance looks bland, uninspired and ugly, then of course that's a problem.

But for me, it would be a problem of execution and not necessarily the design. That said, I have different priorities than you and other people (I think even most people), so it doesn't bother me at all, quite the contrary. I can understand your dissapointment though.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 06:17 .

[Nerdage]

Lenimph wrote...

She doesn't just mention her "rags"... she talks about getting her out of those rags and giving her a makeover.  And if you have her wearing decent looking set or robes it doesn't fit well within concept.  Plus the breast staring...

But the player knows what she's talking about. I can make the distinction between the 'rags' Morrigan owns and the robes she's wearing at the moment, so the conversation still makes sense. I think the same thing applies here.

Modifié par nerdage, 29 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Sabariel wrote...

Then don't make direct mentions like "my eyes are up here", change the wording a bit. Fenris' glowing tattoos, Isabela's hooker boots, and Varric's chest chair could all be seen in a casual iconic outfit. In the field, have a banter about how cool Isabela's casual iconic hooker boots are or say "Wow, Fenris, I can see your tattoos through your armor!" or "Gee, Varric, it's a shame your lovely chest hair is covered by that armor! I can't wait to get back to the Hanged Man so I can see it again" They're not limited.

Having to script extra banters that only exist in certain locations, and under specific conditions depending on what the characters are currently wearing eats up development time that could be used to script more banter. Given that they have to develop on a schedule, I'd call that limiting.

nerdage wrote...
You can still stare longingly at someone's chest when it's covered up...

Besides, like I said, I'm willing to assume the risk. I'm not sure why you're so against an optional feature you wouldn't use because you wouldn't like it. Others would like it, and it doesn't affect your gameplay, so what's the problem?

Because it takes away three things:

#1. Unique appearances for followers. Generic armor that can be worn by anyone means that they either have very limited armor selection, or have very limited body selection. They don't have the time to do all of it.
#2. Depth of immersion, because of the comments on the rags, shoes, boots, tattoos, etc. that just don't make any sense if you change their appearances
#3. Development time that could be spent making more content, rather than redoing the stuff to try to make it not break  #1 and #2.

It isn't that it cannot be made to work. It's just that the amount of effort required to make it work is cost-prohibitive.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 29 août 2011 - 06:23 .

[filetemo]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
]Additionally, we are experimenting with armor equipped to the followers having some additional visual impact on the follower's iconic appearance,
[*]

[*]this is the key for me to be the perfect approach I want.keeping the base armor but adding layers on top of that model that doesn't interfere with the base but add visual difference, such as new shoulderpads or helmets added on top of the unique design

[RagingCyclone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alex90c wrote...

What if they just had that improve with level-up thing they added in DA2, for Morrigan's robes? I can understand the rationale behind the follower outfits stuff Bioware is doing, it just feels like they're screwing up character customisation just so we can have "iconic" appearances which get old after five minutes. And yes, before anyone whips out the "durrrr hyperbole", yes I'm exaggerating.

With the new system, I feel it gives me more opportunities. Say I want Morrigan to specialize in fire spells, but I do not want to change her outfit. I can statistically modify her to deal extra fire damage, without changing her appearance (an example...why does it always have to be Morrigan ).


Now of course, I am expecting that they put a lot of effort and attention to detail with those outfits. And we still have some customization, though hopefully the options we have are actually different even if they do not change the overall tone (say if Morrigan, it would still have feathers). If an iconic appearance looks bland, uninspired and ugly, then of course that's a problem.

But for me, it would be a problem of execution and not necessarily the design. That said, I have different priorities than you and other people (I think even most people), so it doesn't bother me at all, quite the contrary. I can understand your dissapointment.

There was one problem I had with Morrigan's "iconic" looks however. Her upgraded outfit, the Robes of Possession, appeared the same as her normal clothing. I was disappointed when I first saw this because I was expecting them to look different. I use a mod now to make them look like Flemeth's from DA2 which is more in line with what I was expecting since the storyline hinted as some sort of Flemeth kind of change in the robes. If DA3 has a storyline reason for upgrades, I can live with that. But if the story calls for a different look, then I would expect a visual change, and from what I am gathering from Laidlaw that will not happen, just the upgrade.