1253 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

There is a problem that if you don't make the antagonist totally bananas people will complain that they can't join up with them.

There are quite a few complaints about not being able to support the Qunari - and they're pretty nuts really. Some people even seem to have wanted to support Saren.

If you want to make a choice morally grey (rather than just morally dumb) then you HAVE to relate to both sides.  It seems as though the authors did everything possible to keep you from relating to mages....apparently because in DAO people related to mages 'too much'.


-Polaris

[Follow Me on Twitter]

When you look at both Meredith and Orsino you are able to differentiate who really is insane.

Atleast in my playthrough i knew Orsino was not insane he approached everything in a reasonable manner. He. Was. Not. A. Antagonist. and he was not insane, desperate maybe because of how dire the situation was for them

Was Anders insane? No, he was a radical with the spirit of justice completely infused into him he was not insane but he felt what he was doing was right. You want engaging, the pro-mage Antagonist of the game was not only a radical terrorist but someone you considered a friend.

If you were pro-templar the rest of the templars actually have your back against Meredith when she orders them to kill you.

Maybe the rest of the mages were insane but the enigma also goes into detail on the theory of why most mages in Kirkwall turn to blood magic and it only shows when you come across mages who have turned to blood magic as well as being insane. 

Call it whatever they explain it to you and tell you the reason behind such a high amount of insanity. It goes with the story they have written. So to answer your question "Will mages continue to be depicted as insane" if it takes place in Kirkwall possibly "And stupid" there are alot of stupid people in the world so you have to think a good portion of those stupid people are mages as well.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 30 août 2011 - 06:48 .

[IanPolaris]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

When you look at both Meredith and Orsino you are able to differentiate who really is insane.

Atleast in my playthrough i knew Orsino was not insane he approached everything in a reasonable manner. He. Was. Not. A. Antagonist. and he was not insane, desperate maybe because of how dire the situation was for them

I see.  That completely explains Orsino harvester then?  I also note that you can only really interact with Orisino in Act 3 and not much at that.

Was Anders insane? No, he was a radical with the spirit of justice completely infused into him he was not insane but he felt what he was doing was right. You want engaging, the pro-mage of the game was not only a radical terrorist but someone you considered a friend.

He's a guy that sees things, and is actively possessed to the point of killing young teenages, but nope, not crazy.....sheesh.

If you were pro-templar the rest of the templars actually have your back against Meredith when she orders them to kill you.

If the Templars had any moral backbone at all, they should have refused to allow Meredith's annullement order, technically legal or not.  Not even Knight Captain Cullen thinks it's warrented or necessary, and he's about as far from a softy towards mages as one can get!

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

There is a problem that if you don't make the antagonist totally bananas people will complain that they can't join up with them.

There are quite a few complaints about not being able to support the Qunari - and they're pretty nuts really. Some people even seem to have wanted to support Saren.

Wasn't that the result of the Arishok being shown as the only one who seemed marginally sane in a sea of insanity?

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Desperation can make good people do really grim stuff.

Anders was not insane infact if you have enough Rivalry with him and force him to help the templars he actually shows some remorse for what hes done.

To be honest i also went along with the annullement in most of my playthrough and i tend to think Cullen also went so far along with it for the same reason. The grand cleric was dead the divine was going to find out and they would march and slaughter everyone from mages to civilians. So you can stop the mages and end it there or help them and risk the civilians as well. At that point all you could do was try and reduce the casualties. You even see when you enter the gallows and some of the mages surrender pleading for their life Cullen does not want them executed he wanted them spared. But hes does not want to step on Meredith's toes.

Again that last part was just my opinion on why he went along with it.

And i'm going to stop posting in this topic all it is now are opinions on what happend they gave you a theory on why they behaved like that. But you guys are more interested in bickering over what you feel is poor writing because it did not play out how you wanted it to.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 30 août 2011 - 07:01 .

[GavrielKay]

I think the problem boils down to how it feels to the player.

Rogue Templars going on power trips and abusing their charges is something the player can relate to from modern experience. It doesn't require a ton of backstory to support. They don't need to put a lot of effort into developing Alrik as a character who wants to Tranquil all mages, because the player can understand a religious zealot who truly believes that all mages are a danger to society and themselves should be effectively neutered.

What we don't get sufficient story to understand properly are things like Decimus attacking a mage and her friends coming to help. There was no pre or post scene information to make it at all reasonable that Decimus attacks someone who could well be an ally. Thrask doesn't mention that the Starkhaven mage leader is unstable. Grace doesn't explain anything after the fact. There is just a rogue mage who attacks you no matter what and leads to a whole line of quests that make decreasing sense.

When you add up all the times that mages behave in a way contrary to their own well being with no real explanation (even the Enigma of Kirkwall codices don't explain most of what happens, and they're optional anyway) it does begin to feel contrived. That isn't ranting and raving - it is just a criticism from some players who are hoping that more thought is put into character motivations in future games. Especially when those characters deviate from the norm as established in real life or previous games.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wasn't that the result of the Arishok being shown as the only one who seemed marginally sane in a sea of insanity?

To me, he's just a deluded cultist ranting about the evils of freedom.  But I guess YMMV

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Qunari are interesting and I can see why someone would want to join them, but the Arishok was not that much. He had potential, and when compared to Orsino or Meredith, he was a decent character. But he is sill meh.

Giving him Isabela reveals him to be inept and stupid.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

There is a problem that if you don't make the antagonist totally bananas people will complain that they can't join up with them.

So that would be the excuse to make idiotic antagonists?
That's no consolation at all.

[thats1evildude]

Our villains can't all be David Xanatos, KoP. Sometimes they need to be Demona,and  sometimes they need to be Jackal and Hyena.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 07:29 .

[Ryzaki]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Qunari are interesting and I can see why someone would want to join them, but the Arishok was not that much. He had potential, and when compared to Orsino or Meredith, he was a decent character. But he is sill meh.

Giving him Isabela reveals him to be inept and stupid.

Why? What happens?

She gets the book and escapes. 

[Ryzaki]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Qunari are interesting and I can see why someone would want to join them, but the Arishok was not that much. He had potential, and when compared to Orsino or Meredith, he was a decent character. But he is sill meh.

Giving him Isabela reveals him to be inept and stupid.

Why? What happens?

She gets the book and escapes. 

But Varric wasn't sure if that's true.

Well for that rumor to be seen as remotely possible would mean the Arishok didn't manage to return the book safely wouldn't it? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

thats1evildude wrote...

Our villains can't all be David Xanatos, KoP. Sometimes they need to be Demona,and  sometimes they need to be Jackal and Hyena.

They don't need to be David Xanatos.

Demona is a developped and interesting character. She is irrational, but she is developped to compensate. It makes her irrationality interesting and not annoying,

[Ryzaki]

I have to admit my fav video game antagonists tend to be those that don't actually want to be antagonists. (Ala Ryoji from Persona 3) or those that are trying to do the right thing but just happen to get in the main PC's way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

My 3 favorite antagonists are Loghain (who does stupid things), Jacques de Aldesberg (TW1) and Letho of Gulet (TW2).

They are different characters in a lot of ways, and none of them would really qualify as a Xanatos. I don't need them to be, for them to be interesting to me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 août 2011 - 07:44 .

[Nashiktal]

You see origins had the opposite problem. In DA:O, mages were far to sympathetic for the danger the codex and the setting made them out to be. They were easy to save, easy to help, demons were no problem at all for the most part especially for the player (unless an insane guy brought them forth, hm...), and to top it all off they were among the most fun classes to play as.

They did indeed needed to be painted in a more sinister light. Demons ARE supposed to be a big danger, they ARE supposed to be able to seduce mortals into giving in. Its what they do, they have the power to do so, and the mages are the most connected and thus the easiest to call to. However I feel that DA2 did this totally wrong. It all felt forced, every man woman and orphan were either insane blood mages, or prey to said blood mages. They didn't feel dangerous per se, just idiotic murderers who cackled as they slurpt sweet demon sludge.

There was an explanation for this within an obscure series of codex entries that would have GREATLY helped to flesh all of this out, and maybe even excuse this behavior if it would have been used in the main plotline, however it forever languishes in obscurity, and even with the explanation it isnt shown, nor told to the player and thus not applicable for excusing said madness.

tl;dr

Mages do indeed need to be portrayed as dangerous, just not the way DA2 did it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nashiktal wrote...

You see origins had the opposite problem. In DA:O, mages were far to sympathetic for the danger the codex and the setting made them out to be. They were easy to save, easy to help, demons were no problem at all for the most part especially for the player (unless an insane guy brought them forth, hm...), and to top it all off they were among the most fun classes to play as.

The Recliffe situation showed them to be very dangerous (one abominatiion could wipe out an entire castle and village). Much more dangerous than any abomination or mage in DA2.

And Connor was hard to save, were it not for the awful 3rd option that I pretend does not exist at all.

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you want to make a choice morally grey (rather than just morally dumb) then you HAVE to relate to both sides.  It seems as though the authors did everything possible to keep you from relating to mages....apparently because in DAO people related to mages 'too much'.

-Polaris

I don' t know about this. If this were true, then there would be nearly no one on the pro mage side, which seems to be untrue.

[Ryzaki]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Well for that rumor to be seen as remotely possible would mean the Arishok didn't manage to return the book safely wouldn't it? 

Rumors are rumors. We don't know if they're true.

Maybe not. *shrugs* 

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you want to make a choice morally grey (rather than just morally dumb) then you HAVE to relate to both sides.  It seems as though the authors did everything possible to keep you from relating to mages....apparently because in DAO people related to mages 'too much'.

-Polaris

I don' t know about this. If this were true, then there would be nearly no one on the pro mage side, which seems to be untrue.

That's not necessarily so.  You don't have to relate to mages to understand that slaughtering an entire group of people, ANY group of people, down to the last child for a crime that they didn't even commit is evil. 

That's what Meredith does and wants you to participate in.  You don't have to relate to mages at all to understand why that is......insane.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you want to make a choice morally grey (rather than just morally dumb) then you HAVE to relate to both sides.  It seems as though the authors did everything possible to keep you from relating to mages....apparently because in DAO people related to mages 'too much'.

-Polaris

I don' t know about this. If this were true, then there would be nearly no one on the pro mage side, which seems to be untrue.

The writers did it in such a way that it felt obvious and contrived.  And for me at least, that's part of why it failed.  I could never get into character and think "wow, look how dangerous mages can be!"  It was mostly, "gee, another mage sacrifices himself for the plot."

When it doesn't feel immersive, then the next step is to use modern morals to think about it.  Modern morals are pretty clear on punishing folks for things they might do or have the ability to do - but haven't done yet.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Most of the pro-mages are also dead set on viewing the mages as nothing but victims, and then won't ever admit to the dangers that mages present. Same with the pro-Circle/Templars. We are often so dead set on focusing on the dangers mages present, that we don't... I don't even know how to end that sentence... There is probably something we don't look at...