1253 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you want to make a choice morally grey (rather than just morally dumb) then you HAVE to relate to both sides.  It seems as though the authors did everything possible to keep you from relating to mages....apparently because in DAO people related to mages 'too much'.

-Polaris

I don' t know about this. If this were true, then there would be nearly no one on the pro mage side, which seems to be untrue.

That's not necessarily so.  You don't have to relate to mages to understand that slaughtering an entire group of people, ANY group of people, down to the last child for a crime that they didn't even commit is evil. 

That's what Meredith does and wants you to participate in.  You don't have to relate to mages at all to understand why that is......insane.

-Polaris

And what amount of relating to the opposing side of this argument (that sometimes maybe it *is* understandable to slaughter said group of people) is going to change the pro-mage player's mind? For the pro mage players out there, is there any possible way you could ever see yourself questioning this fundamental stance?

Modifié par phaonica, 31 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't really think so. Connor didn't have a lot of personal power and was relying on a bunch of lesser demons to do the dirty work, Uldred was possessed by what seemed to be one of the more powerful of the most powerful type of demon (there were plenty of lesser abominations as well), and Fenyriel was an extremely special mage. These are the famous examples of abomination breakouts, but they definitely seem to be the exception and not the rule.

A mage doesn't need to be powerful to be dangerous as an abomination. It is the demon within that has the power and control. Even a lowly mage, like Connor, getting possesed can do insane levels of damage. Connor is just the vessel. The nature of the demon can vary, but none of them appear to be anything but bad news. It mattered not that Connor had little personal power. he almost wiped out his village and castle staff, and possibly managed to do so, depending on if you stayed in Redcliffe to defend it or not. That it was the demon doing this, from the Fade, and not even on the same physical plane, only underscores the power and danger of demons or spirits being allowed even limited influence in the "real world".

And given how difficult it is to breach the barrier from the Fade and get into a persons body, it is generally the stronger demons, even the "lower" types like rage and hunger, that manage to get through. And those are the ones that can do the damage, especially against an unprepared village or town, where most people would not know how to defend themselves. An abomination, even the lower ones, could certainly make life hell for a number of people if it was loose. Not to mention that it destroys the mage as surely as Tranquility does.

As far as the darkspawn comparison, even one darkspawn is a pretty big danger, just because they corrupt and infect whatever they touch (See Awakening epilogue if you free the well meanings Messanger, who goes on to help people, but ends up spreading the blight. Abominations pose a different type of danger, but a real one, nevertheless.

[Xilizhra]

A mage doesn't need to be powerful to be dangerous as an abomination. It is the demon within that has the power and control. Even a lowly mage, like Connor, getting possesed can do insane levels of damage. Connor is just the vessel. The nature of the demon can vary, but none of them appear to be anything but bad news. It mattered not that Connor had little personal power. he almost wiped out his village and castle staff, and possibly managed to do so, depending on if you stayed in Redcliffe to defend it or not. That it was the demon doing this, from the Fade, and not even on the same physical plane, only underscores the power and danger of demons or spirits being allowed even limited influence in the "real world".

That's also an example of a mage allowing himself to become possessed. IIRC, those abominations are a lot more powerful since they waste no energy struggling for control, and have full access to the mage's faculties.

And given how difficult it is to breach the barrier from the Fade and get into a persons body, it is generally the stronger demons, even the "lower" types like rage and hunger, that manage to get through. And those are the ones that can do the damage, especially against an unprepared village or town, where most people would not know how to defend themselves. An abomination, even the lower ones, could certainly make life hell for a number of people if it was loose. Not to mention that it destroys the mage as surely as Tranquility does.

True, but the chance of that happening is fairly miniscule. Though it does explain why so many abominations we see are weak; they appear in places where it's far easier to possess mages, and so the weaker demons can have fun.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's also an example of a mage allowing himself to become possessed. IIRC, those abominations are a lot more powerful since they waste no energy struggling for control, and have full access to the mage's faculties.

Yes, they do. Those who allow possession are indeed more powerful (and often, more subtle and cunning, and don't look like nukclear meltdown victims.

True, but the chance of that happening is fairly miniscule. Though it does explain why so many abominations we see are weak; they appear in places where it's far easier to possess mages, and so the weaker demons can have fun.

The chances of a mage becoming an abomination, I agree, seem to be much less than is displayed in DA2. There's definitely a danger, but as I said, I don't believe mages become raging demon possesed idiots at the drop of a hat. A thin veil certainly would allow the weaklings through, as we see in Kirkwall, but overall, Kirkwall is alot different and unique, thin veils seem to be unusual and special situations.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Mages are not the only ones that can become abominations as we have seen with Enemies Among Us.

[Ryzaki]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Mages are not the only ones that can become abominations as we have seen with Enemies Among Us.

Though in that scenario the blood mages are the ones who forced the demons inside. 
Animals can be possessed without help though apparently. Given Mr. Wiggums and the cat from Honnealth. Though that was probably due to a thin veil. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 août 2011 - 01:38 .

[phaonica]

GavrielKay wrote...

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you want to make a choice morally grey (rather than just morally dumb) then you HAVE to relate to both sides.  It seems as though the authors did everything possible to keep you from relating to mages....apparently because in DAO people related to mages 'too much'.

-Polaris

I don' t know about this. If this were true, then there would be nearly no one on the pro mage side, which seems to be untrue.

The writers did it in such a way that it felt obvious and contrived.  And for me at least, that's part of why it failed.  I could never get into character and think "wow, look how dangerous mages can be!"  It was mostly, "gee, another mage sacrifices himself for the plot."

I mostly agree with you. During the game I often wondered, "Are we going to be shown any mages at all who aren't using demons/bloodmagic (Tarohne) or aren't insane (Quentin) or unreasonable (Grace)." I think there could have been more effective ways to show the dangers posed by the mages (such as perhaps showing reasonable, and well intentioned mages unintentionally putting people in danger... or something... that's just what comes to mind right now).

However, I still wonder if any amount of showing the dangers posed by mages would ever be enough to sufficiently justify mage internment, particularly to currently pro mage players.

[The Baconer]

phaonica wrote...
And what amount of relating to the opposing side of this argument (that sometimes maybe it *is* understandable to slaughter said group of people) is going to change the pro-mage player's mind? For the pro mage players out there, is there any possible way you could ever see yourself questioning this fundamental stance?

Just a question, could you ever see yourself agreeing that sometimes it is understandable to enslave a group of people?

Disclaimer: I am not in any way trying to suggest that imprisonment in the Circles can be equated to slavery, which it can't.

[JPadinhaT]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Mages are not the only ones that can become abominations as we have seen with Enemies Among Us.

Valid point, but they are still more vulnerable to it.

[Ryzaki]

The Baconer wrote...

phaonica wrote...
And what amount of relating to the opposing side of this argument (that sometimes maybe it *is* understandable to slaughter said group of people) is going to change the pro-mage player's mind? For the pro mage players out there, is there any possible way you could ever see yourself questioning this fundamental stance?

Just a question, could you ever see yourself agreeing that sometimes it is understandable to enslave a group of people?

Disclaimer: I am not in any way trying to suggest that imprisonment in the Circles can be equated to slavery, which it can't.

If enslaving that group stopped them from killing others and themselves? Sure. 

It's not like one's forced to be a complete monster to someone whose enslaved. Heck there's a story about a proud warrior race that had to be enslaved becuase if they weren't they'd kill themselves and everyone else. 

TVTropes warning.

In David Eddings' The Tamuli, an entire race (the Atans) is enslaved. It's described as standardized and really mostly inconsequential slavery - the Atans are the Tamul infantry, and they're pretty damn good at it. The explanation for the slavery: the Atans kept trying to kill each other, and about the only time the Tamuls ever exercise their "mastery" of the Atans is to order them to stop fighting amongst themselves. And the Atans? They like it that way, seeing as how they're a Proud Warrior Race.
 Seeing as the Atans consider themselves honour-bound to kill anyone who insults them by, among other things, letting his shadow touch them, their self-imposed slavery might just be the only thing keeping the Atans from exterminating either themselves or every other race, whichever happened first. Quite possibly the Proudest and dumbest Warrior Race in all of literature...

I'm of the mind that anything can be understandable under the right circumstances. I'm aware others don't share that belief though. 

[TJPags]

Why shouldn't we continue to run into insane mages?

In all seriousness, the game's lore tells us that mages have issues from travelling into the fade, dealing with it when they sleep, demon temptation, etc.

Whether it's because of all that, or because of how they're treated, or how they're taught to view themselves (yes, for this instance I'll give credence to the concept that the Chantry's teachings and the Circles may help to unhinge mages) or because that particular mage just happens to be a bit unbalanced anyway, why shouldn't we see insane mages?

We should - often. Particularly outside the Tower, where they are on their own, likely scared of being found/caught, perhaps a bit paranoid about it.

Maybe, instead of DA2 going overboard by showing us insane mages, DAO and DAA went overboard by NOT showing us insane mages . . . .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...


However, I still wonder if any amount of showing the dangers posed by mages would ever be enough to sufficiently justify mage internment, particularly to currently pro mage players.

I'm pro-mage in general, yet I do support some form of interment. Just not the current system where people are ripped from their families in chains to spend the rest of their lives getting lorded over and possibly exploited by religous crackheads in metal suits, in a system geared mainly towards containment, and not improvement and development.

I certainly support a fully reformed system that is more practical, logical, and humane. But such a system will never take place so long as the Chantry's running the show, because they are idiots.

[The Baconer]

Ryzaki wrote...

If enslaving that group stopped them from killing others and themselves? Sure. 

It's not like one's forced to be a complete monster to someone whose enslaved. Heck there's a story about a proud warrior race that had to be enslaved becuase if they weren't they'd kill themselves and everyone else. 

(...)

I'm of the mind that anything can be understandable under the right circumstances. I'm aware others don't share that belief though. 

I suppose it's not impossible for the mundanes to be given purpose, under a rule that both parties would call fair. It's unfortunate that such an idealistic solution probably can't be achieved in the setting of DA.

[phaonica]

The Baconer wrote...

Just a question, could you ever see yourself agreeing that sometimes it is understandable to enslave a group of people?

Maybe. I don't believe in absolutes.

Currenly, I think that permanent internment is wrong. However, I believe in the possiblity that a scenerio could exist that would make me change my mind, even though I have yet to be presented with such a scenerio.

I also believe in the possibility of a scenerio that, while it doesn't convince me that mage internment is right, that it might be a preferable alternative to a greater danger/conflict.

But I also don't consider myself pro-templar or pro-mage. I don't care who is right or wrong in this game. I don't care if the templars win or if the mages win. I think the game could be fun if the mages lose; I think it could be fun if the templars lose, too. It doesn't matter so long as the story is good and the game is fun.

Modifié par phaonica, 31 août 2011 - 02:03 .

[Ryzaki]

The Baconer wrote...
I suppose it's not impossible for the mundanes to be given purpose, under a rule that both parties would call fair. It's unfortunate that such an idealistic solution probably can't be achieved in the setting of DA.

Which is probably for the best. I don't mind a mess ending in this scenario. 

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

TVTropes warning.

Interesting.

Considering we've seen the average mage lifestyle and the average commoner's lifestyle, I wonder why there isn't much more of this trope being invoked. We had Finn, though I'd enjoy seeing somebody who lived outside the Circles into adulthood and then went to the Circle for the food / shelter / education.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

TVTropes warning.

Interesting.

Considering we've seen the average mage lifestyle and the average commoner's lifestyle, I wonder why there isn't much more of this trope being invoked. We had Finn, though I'd enjoy seeing somebody who lived outside the Circles into adulthood and then went to the Circle for the food / shelter / education.

I wonder as well. 

Especially given the conditions most city elves live in. 

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Isn't that worse? Like i mean, being taken as a child is the norm for most circle mages. But being caught as an adult as a apostate is alot more dangerous for the person since the templars view them as "active apostates" and fear what they might do to them. Isn't that why most apostates fear going to the circle?

Incase that made no sense D: a child is more likely to be innocent of any blood magic or crimes. When a templar catches a apostate they have no idea what kind of person this is, if he/she is a good person or a murderer or someone that practices blood magic so they would be more harsh to them.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 31 août 2011 - 02:48 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Come to think of it, I might have figured out what's really wrong with Kirkwall. It's not red lyrium or a thin veil. It's a crack epidemic. Seriously. It's got all the hallmarks of having widespread crack usage.

1. Sudden irrational and violent behavior, with a tendancy to attack for no logical or sane reason. Which includes damned near everyone who attacks you throughout the game. And alot who don't.

2. Lessened ability to perform daily tasks or functions. Cullen and other templars inability to find blood mages right in front of them casting spells. Dumar or Elthina to do their jobs. Arishok unable to find book or thief.

3. Apathy, lack of productiveness, laziness, inability to do anything useful. Elthina, Dumar, Arishok, Isabella, Fenris, Hawke, Leandra, Gamlen.

4. Hallucinations, delusions, paranoid psychotic behavior. Meredith, Orsino, Anders, Petrice, Tahrone, Decimus, Grace, Quentin, Huon, Fenris, Alrik, Bartrand.

5. A tendancy to babble on about things that make no sense, or a basic inability to make simple and obvious logical deductions or conclusions. Which is....pretty much everyone.

6. Tendancies towards exaggerations or outright lies, halftruths, or important omissions of truth. Varric, Gamlen, Grace, Anders, Isabella, Orsino, Gascard.

7. A tendancy to be broke or in debt despite having considerable resources and investments. A tendancy to slum it. Hawke. Gamlen. Sebastian.

8. A tendancy to live in filthy, rundown, unkempt conditions. Fenris. Gamlen. Anders. Hawke. Merril. Isabella. Quentin. Bartrand.


I mean, maybe the game is really meant to be about the dangers of magic or mage oppresion, but about the very reasons we should all "Just Say No".

[Dave of Canada]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Isn't that worse? Like i mean, being taken as a child is the norm for most circle mages. But being caught as an adult as a apostate is alot more dangerous for the person since the templars view them as "active apostates" and fear what they might do to them. Isn't that why most apostates fear going to the circle?

From what we've seen, there's some older individuals which are taken to the Circle for training (Huon, for example). From what I gather, they usually fear the Circle it because of what they've heard about it and what they'd lose from their life (which they've experienced more rather than not gaining ties by being taken as children).

The only thing I'm like 70% sure the Circle is supposed to fear and hunt down to death are blood mages, though both the Ferelden and Kirkwall Circles have disobeyed these rules a few times (which led them to being bit back in the ass by it).

[Ryzaki]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Isn't that worse? Like i mean, being taken as a child is the norm for most circle mages. But being caught as an adult as a apostate is alot more dangerous for the person since the templars view them as "active apostates" and fear what they might do to them. Isn't that why most apostates fear going to the circle?

True it might be worse but think of say a CE girl that's being abused by her father (or say someone like Vaughn's icky self) and then is sent to say...Fereldan's circle (not Kirkwall's bat**** self). She's now among people who share her skills, isn't being beaten/raped on a daily basis (this is going under the assumptiont that she's not being abused there as well), has food to eat, a warm place to sleep. She's lost her freedom true. But what really was that freedom worth if she was miserable every day? 

Now of course there's a chance (a much higher chance granted) that she'll hate the circle more than her old surrondings but it's odd that there's no mages that prefer the circle to their old lives. Every mage child wasn't taken from the hands of a loving family after all. (the chances of that being the case are extremely low even if it's only a handful of mages, some of them would've came from abusive homes). 

That said yeah the templars are a lot more harsh to "active apostates." they gave Bethany her harrowing the second she was in the circle. They probably tend to kill most apostates. 

[Ryzaki]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Come to think of it, I might have figured out what's really wrong with Kirkwall. It's not red lyrium or a thin veil. It's a crack epidemic. Seriously. It's got all the hallmarks of having widespread crack usage.

1. Sudden irrational and violent behavior, with a tendancy to attack for no logical or sane reason. Which includes damned near everyone who attacks you throughout the game. And alot who don't.

2. Lessened ability to perform daily tasks or functions. Cullen and other templars inability to find blood mages right in front of them casting spells. Dumar or Elthina to do their jobs. Arishok unable to find book or thief.

3. Apathy, lack of productiveness, laziness, inability to do anything useful. Elthina, Dumar, Arishok, Isabella, Fenris, Hawke, Leandra, Gamlen.

4. Hallucinations, delusions, paranoid psychotic behavior. Meredith, Orsino, Anders, Petrice, Tahrone, Decimus, Grace, Quentin, Huon, Fenris, Alrik, Bartrand.

5. A tendancy to babble on about things that make no sense, or a basic inability to make simple and obvious logical deductions or conclusions. Which is....pretty much everyone.

6. Tendancies towards exaggerations or outright lies, halftruths, or important omissions of truth. Varric, Gamlen, Grace, Anders, Isabella, Orsino, Gascard.

7. A tendancy to be broke or in debt despite having considerable resources and investments. A tendancy to slum it. Hawke. Gamlen. Sebastian.

8. A tendancy to live in filthy, rundown, unkempt conditions. Fenris. Gamlen. Anders. Hawke. Merril. Isabella. Quentin. Bartrand.


I mean, maybe the game is really meant to be about the dangers of magic or mage oppresion, but about the very reasons we should all "Just Say No".

'

I'm currently LMAO thanks for that. 

[LobselVith8]

Skadi,

I think you're onto something.

Now Hawke's behavior is finally starting to make sense. I was wondering what he was doing all these years.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Skadi,

I think you're onto something.

Now Hawke's behavior is finally starting to make sense. I was wondering what he was doing all these years.

So this is Hawke's theme song then?  

[Follow Me on Twitter]

I suppose, now that i think about it. Would it be wise to dissolve the circle completely? I mean what would the mages that have lived in a tower their entire life do if they had no families to return to? Would they be thrown on the street?

At this point the templars supply shelter/food for all of these mages would they actually be able to survive without them?

Just an example the quest in which you are set off to go find those apostates for meredith when you go to the boys home and speak to his mother and the father comes in its made apparent that this kid had no idea how to live outside of the tower he was just drinking all day at the hanged man from money his parents would give him.

His own father seemed worried about the fact that he didn't seem to know what he was doing.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 31 août 2011 - 03:02 .