1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@Ryzaki: It was actually Tahrone who inspired this. I was looking at a screenshot of Tahrone, and I kept thinking, like, the only person who would ever let themselves to walk out of their houses looking like that, or even in their houses, is a freaking crackhead. I mean, even crazy homeless people have better fashion sense than that.

@Lobs: Yes, when I look at it from this perspective, everything in the game suddenly makes perfect sense.

[Ryzaki]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

I suppose, now that i think about it. Would it be wise to dissolve the circle completely? I mean what would the mages that have lived in a tower their entire life do if they had no families to return to? Would they be thrown on the street?

At this point the templars supply shelter/food for all of these mages would they actually be able to survive without them?

Just an example the quest in which you are set off to go find those apostates for meredith when you go to the boys home and speak to his mother and the father comes in its made apparent that this kid had no idea how to live outside of the tower he was just drinking all day at the hanged man from money his parents would give him.

His own father seemed worried about the fact that he didn't seem to know what he was doing.

Yeah that's gonna get ugly real fast. I can see the mages suriving but they're gonna have to go through some hard knocks and I can see more than a few trying to go the easy route of running to a demon to help them. 

They're not gonna be used to going without and they might not have the skills to make it on their own without banding together. (ala Grace and her crew getting caught). 

@Skadi: That makes a lot of sense. 

As well as why everyone finds the new elves "beautiful"  Sure there's a few that are decent (Merrill, Fenris, Athernerial...however you spell her name) but yeah...they got drug goggles. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 août 2011 - 03:09 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Lyrium is kinda like crack. The templars sure treat it like such anyways.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Lyrium is kinda like crack. The templars sure treat it like such anyways.

Samson is like a stereyotyipically obvious crackhead archtype. Didn't Varric's mom smoke some sort of resin or rock?

[Dave of Canada]

Considering city elves have their homes burned down if they try to leave the alienages and are treated horribly, with abuses like Vaughan's sexy time being ignored by authorities and constantly being culled by angry humans who demand vengeance? I'd assume they'd be fine with the Circle's limitations if it meant getting food, shelter and education when their already suffering all the negatives which people love to mention regarding the Circles.

Makes you wonder how "free" mages would be treated if they were ever released into society. You wouldn't have people treating them like equals, they'd possibly be treated worse than elves which can't turn into abominations or raise the dead. Elven mages? Oh my.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering city elves have their homes burned down if they try to leave the alienages and are treated horribly, with abuses like Vaughan's sexy time being ignored by authorities and constantly being culled by angry humans who demand vengeance? I'd assume they'd be fine with the Circle's limitations if it meant getting food, shelter and education when their already suffering all the negatives which people love to mention regarding the Circles.

Makes you wonder how "free" mages would be treated if they were ever released into society. You wouldn't have people treating them like equals, they'd possibly be treated worse than elves which can't turn into abominations or raise the dead. Elven mages? Oh my.

Heck it's suggested in origins (at least the PC can suggest it asdoes that elf reading) that the warden already treated more like crap by the other mages for being an elf.  

But yeah...I'm pretty sure they'd bea lot more dead mage kids without the circle. 

So without the circle...more would be killed as children...they'd probably be forced into ghettos or forced to hide their abilities to get decent jobs (and woe befall them if anyone finds out), be abused and the second they fight back it's used as justification to kill as many of them as possible least they turn into an abomination fest. ...and yeah I don't see that ending well. You need to change how the adverage Thedas person views mages and just setting them all free isn't gonna accomplish that. 

A slow easing into society might though. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 août 2011 - 03:27 .

[Dave of Canada]

Hell, Wynne suggests there's a lot of kids already that don't make it to the Circle and that the Circle exists to protect the mages as much as the normal people. >.> Puts things more into perspective.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 août 2011 - 03:24 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering city elves have their homes burned down if they try to leave the alienages and are treated horribly, with abuses like Vaughan's sexy time being ignored by authorities and constantly being culled by angry humans who demand vengeance? I'd assume they'd be fine with the Circle's limitations if it meant getting food, shelter and education when their already suffering all the negatives which people love to mention regarding the Circles.

Makes you wonder how "free" mages would be treated if they were ever released into society. You wouldn't have people treating them like equals, they'd possibly be treated worse than elves which can't turn into abominations or raise the dead. Elven mages? Oh my.

In some cases, yes, life in the Circle is a big step up, especially for elven mages. You get all the basic necessities plus more, as far as material needs. And in the Circle, they are treated as equals (Orsino, an elf, being able to take top dog position), and do not have to worry about getting attacked by random humans for the lulz.

However, they are just as vulnerable (in some cases, more so, since there are elves who survive alienage purges, where as "surviving" an annulment means lobotomization) to become victims to unprovoked and total violence at the hands of their overseers. Even worse is when it comes in response to the actions of another of whom you had no influence or control over. As well as despite poverty, one may have been taken from one's family and culture by force and permanently cut off.

It all depends on the individual what an acceptable trade off is.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hell, Wynne suggests there's a lot of kids already that don't make it to the Circle and that the Circle exists to protect the mages as much as the normal people. >.> Puts things more into perspective.

Yeah that...I just wish Kirkwall's circle remembered that. Which is why I'm for reform (circle shouldn't be so bad that they will do anything to leave) but not disbandment (it protects more than just the common civilians). 

But in truth it wouldn't work as a Hogwarts. One of the main reasons Hogwarts works in the first place is because Wizards pretty much agree in masse not to use magic infront of muggles (and if they do use magic to make that muggle forget said magic ever happened in most cases). The muggles (or commoners or whatever you wanna call them) are for the most part unaware of magic. The two groups are for the most part seperate. 

That's not the case with mages. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 août 2011 - 03:31 .

[dragonflight288]

Every good storyteller will say "show us, don't tell us." I would like to rescue a child from an angry mob led by their family.

Personally, as a promage person, I can understand why templars lock up mages. I can't say I truly grasp the whole concept because I don't live in a world where my neighbor may be using blood magic to control my mind, demons and abominations breaking out throughout the world every now and then causing widespread destruction. But I can understand the danger an untrained mage child is to the community. around them.

And as that is a world of illiterate farmers governed by superstition (much like medieval Europe through mid-1800's.) Many people would see templars as holy warriors, including the templars themselves, because it is exceptionally easy to paint mages with the same brush.

Thing is, DA2 made it just as easy to paint templars with the same brush of stupidity and oppression.

Mages need an education-base and a good solid structure to learn how to effectively use their powers. And Lore-wise, supported by history if not by gameplay, it takes almost an entire regiment of templars to take down a single moderately powerful abomination. So people with the templars abilities are necessary to fight blood mages and abominations.

I think Bioware had the best answer for showing us the dangers of magic in Origins when we had Connor destroying the entire village. The only thing done wrong there, in my humble opinion, was that when we go to the Circle of Magi, nothing serious happened while we were gone. Say, Teagan being killed, or many of the knights. We have Isolde and Connor potentially dying, why not some other catastrophe?

By showing the dangers of magic and abominations in that context, seeing the widespread damage an abomination can do before we get to it, can be a better option of showing why the Circle's are widely considered by Thedas as good ideas, instead of all the blood mages and spontaneous combusting abominations.

[Urzon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hell, Wynne suggests there's a lot of kids already that don't make it to the Circle and that the Circle exists to protect the mages as much as the normal people. >.> Puts things more into perspective.

Which is very very sad. Even if mages do somehow get their freedom, they will never be fully excepted into society. There will be always the underlining fear if the mage next door is a blood mage, or when s/he might turn into an abomination. While that is somewhat the Chantry fault, they have been saying that to everyone that will listen. That doesn't take away from the fact that it is a real concern in reguards to an untrained mage.

It would take many generations for people to get over all the prejustices they hold torwards mages. It doesn't help matters when Anders blew up a Chantry to start a war. People to not look highly on others that blow up their places of worship (oppressed people or no). It makes matters worse when mages will start resorting to blood magic to survive or gain the upperhand on their foe.

Modifié par Urzon, 31 août 2011 - 03:41 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

If i remember correctly the circle mages had no plans to revolt. It was all set in motion by Anders when he pretty much left them with that as the only option. Meredith was insane but she did not want all the mages dead or tranquil which you see when you do Dissent after you loot the note showing that Meredith and the Divine refused "The Tranquil Solution"

So maybe it was not as bad as it may have seemed in the circle. Atleast not to the point of war. I know it was pretty bad but if they had removed Meredith they could have started purging all the corrupt Templars.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 31 août 2011 - 03:40 .

[dragonflight288]

Meredith was insane but she did not want all the mages dead or tranquil which you see when you do Dissent after you loot the note showing that Meredith and the Divine refused "The Tranquil Solution"

....she had actually petitioned the Divine for approval to do the Right of Annulment because Elthina refused her. She was actively seeking their deaths in Act 3.

If we side with her in Act 3 and do the investigation for her, she asks if Orsino is involved or responsible. We have no evidence of it, and if we tell her so, she claims we are being influenced by blood magic to protect him.

She is trying to annul the circle and kill everyone inside.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Meredith was insane but she did not want all the mages dead or tranquil which you see when you do Dissent after you loot the note showing that Meredith and the Divine refused "The Tranquil Solution"

....she had actually petitioned the Divine for approval to do the Right of Annulment because Elthina refused her. She was actively seeking their deaths in Act 3.

If we side with her in Act 3 and do the investigation for her, she asks if Orsino is involved or responsible. We have no evidence of it, and if we tell her so, she claims we are being influenced by blood magic to protect him.

She is trying to annul the circle and kill everyone inside.

I stand corrected then so what she refused the idea so she could kill them instead?

[Dave of Canada]

Doesn't Orsino also think Meredith was involved in the conspiracy and think you're lying if you say she didn't? Didn't side with him, can't say anything about it.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

If i remember correctly the circle mages had no plans to revolt. It was all set in motion by Anders when he pretty much left them with that as the only option. Meredith was insane but she did not want all the mages dead or tranquil which you see when you do Dissent after you loot the note showing that Meredith and the Divine refused "The Tranquil Solution"

So maybe it was not as bad as it may have seemed in the circle. Atleast not to the point of war. I know it was pretty bad but if they had removed Meredith they could have started purging all the corrupt Templars.

Keep in mind, however, that that might also have been pragmatism. Giving the go-ahead to a guy with a beard of evil and creepy Fremen eyes is just asking for trouble, and as much as I dislike Meredith, she hadn't quite gone bat**** in Act II.

Act III is another case. Every justification is flimsy at best, and this becomes even more apparent when she doesn't even bother to execute Anders. "The mages are attacking the city!" No, they're actually doing a fighting retreat because you attacked them. "The people will want blood!" So kill Anders. Be lawful good for once in your life. "The mages are plotting against me!" Not at all, in fact Hawke, working for Orsino, actually stamped out a mage-templar rebellion. It all just comes down to the fact that she wanted the mages gone.

Edit: Dave, Orsino muses that Meredith might have set up the whole thing to trick Orsino into incriminating himself.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 31 août 2011 - 03:59 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

I stand corrected then so what she refused the idea so she could kill them instead?

No, she refused the idea years earlier before she decided to go batsh*t. But it didn't mean she wasn't already being harsh and overbearing, because in act 1 even Cullen tells you alot of people hate the templars because of Meredith.

[phaonica]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

If i remember correctly the circle mages had no plans to revolt. It was all set in motion by Anders when he pretty much left them with that as the only option. ... So maybe it was not as bad as it may have seemed in the circle.

It could be argued that even though the revolt in Kirkwall was forced, that the revolts of the other circles were inspired, not forced, and thus it might be assumed that the conditions in most circles were pretty bad.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

True, i guess we do not really know too much about what the conditions inside the circle really is since we have yet to really see inside of one for any real amount of time span.

[phaonica]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

True, i guess we do not really know too much about what the conditions inside the circle really is since we have yet to really see inside of one for any real amount of time span.

Right.  While we may not know exactly why they revolted, they did revolt, which means that Anders actions in Kirkwall are at least somewhat accurately reflective of the desires of the circle mages. If circle mages overall generally had no desire to revolt, then Anders actions would not have affected circle mages elsewhere.

Modifié par phaonica, 31 août 2011 - 04:10 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

True, i guess we do not really know too much about what the conditions inside the circle really is since we have yet to really see inside of one for any real amount of time span.

But the fact that all 14 Circles have rebelled indicates that the mages had legitimate grievances that the factions were able to agree on. Even after three years, that's a considerable amount of support. And I don't think they wanted to revolt. I think Meredith's actions forced it upon them.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 31 août 2011 - 04:11 .

[phaonica]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

But the fact that all 14 Circles have rebelled indicates that the mages had legitimate grievances that the factions were able to agree on. Even after three years, that's a considerable amount of support.

I won't go so far as to say that every rebellion had "legitimate grievances." I agree that they revolted. That is a fact. I don't know their exact motives, because it could be different for every tower, so I won't make a judgment on that.

Modifié par phaonica, 31 août 2011 - 04:15 .

[dragonflight288]

Doesn't Orsino also think Meredith was involved in the conspiracy and think you're lying if you say she didn't? Didn't side with him, can't say anything about it.

He suspects Meredith is creating instances to accuse the mages of. If you tell him the truth that Thrask was trying to depose Meredith, he admits regretting not being involved.

[Urzon]

I really hope that the next dlcs will give us some more insight into what was happening with the other Circles in the last 10 years. Something big must have been going down in the Circles while we were in Kirkwall. It takes alot of fear or anger to inspire all the mages in Thedas to think and all out open revolt against the templar and Chantry might be in their best interest.

All I can think to cause that is either a super-Uldred type figure, or the new Divine was going to put in place some new "policies" that might not agree with the mages (or their health).

All this guessing without alot of knowing is growing tiresome.

Modifié par Urzon, 31 août 2011 - 04:40 .

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That's not necessarily so.  You don't have to relate to mages to understand that slaughtering an entire group of people, ANY group of people, down to the last child for a crime that they didn't even commit is evil. 

That's what Meredith does and wants you to participate in.  You don't have to relate to mages at all to understand why that is......insane.

-Polaris

And what amount of relating to the opposing side of this argument (that sometimes maybe it *is* understandable to slaughter said group of people) is going to change the pro-mage player's mind? For the pro mage players out there, is there any possible way you could ever see yourself questioning this fundamental stance?

In my case nothing.  I regard this as a fundamental ethical truth.  One of very, very few.

-Polaris