1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  You can choose to be (and stop being) a Templar.  You can't choose to be a mage.  That one difference makes all the moral difference.

-Polaris

phaonica wrote...

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

Opps.  Bad wording on my part.  What I meant was, I very seriously doubt that anything would make some of the pro-templar posters agree that the Circle system needs to be disbanded.

[phaonica]

Rifneno wrote...

Opps.  Bad wording on my part.  What I meant was, I very seriously doubt that anything would make some of the pro-templar posters agree that the Circle system needs to be disbanded.

That is probably true. And I would think, again, that no amount of fair and balanced depiction, no amount of different/better writing, no number of sane or reasonable characters is going to convince them otherwise.

I was attempting to explore whether players find the conflict to seem black and white because of a perceived writing flaw (which could be improved upon in the future) or if it is black and white due to an absolute truth (in which case the choosing of the subject of conflict itself was flawed).

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...
I was attempting to explore whether players find the conflict to seem black and white because of a perceived writing flaw (which could be improved upon in the future) or if it is black and white due to an absolute truth (in which case the choosing of the subject of conflict itself was flawed).

I think it's a little of both, actually.  I do think that a person's fight to be free and do what they like, can not supercede the same rights of their neighbors, and if something is honestly dangerous, then certain 'rights' have to be restricted to keep everyone safe.  In this vein, I do agree (and I've always stipulated) that magical education for young mages be mandatory with strictly enforced standards.  I also agree that criminal activity using magic should be punished far more severely (and with special forms of police) than the same activity without magic simply because it's so easy to abuse magic (especially blood magic).

However, the chantry supporters want to go way beyond this.  They want to deny that mages have the same basic human rights as other beings.  One of those rights is not to be slaughtered for someone else's crime.

That IS (IMHO) pretty much a moral absolute (about as close as you get) and the mage/templar conflict as presented in Dragon Age Two comes very close to denying it.  This aspect of the conflict *IS* fundamentally flawed IMHO and should be abandoned.

-Polaris

[Follow Me on Twitter]

 www.marcandangel.com/2008/02/23/what-is-morality-a-moral-fact-or-opinion/

[IanPolaris]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

 www.marcandangel.com/2008/02/23/what-is-morality-a-moral-fact-or-opinion/

I reject moral relatvism as should you.  I regard the conclusions of Nuremberg more than 70 years before to as close as settled 'fact' in morals and ethics as we are going to get, and I suspect almost all reputable ethicist would agree.

This is a settled issue in the here and now.  It is IMMORAL (read evil) to punish (esp collectively punish) someone for the crime that you know was commited by someone else.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What on earth makes you think that the Chantry is against scientific development? That they are mistrusting of anatomical research is completely understandable, within the parameters of their world. But there seems to be no indication at all, that the Chantry is against any sort of research other than that. Nor do the Chantry seem to scoff at any technological advancements, or any advancement at all really. Only the theological studies seems to be disrupted. Though not even close to the extend that the Churc of the Dark Ages did. Only the book which suggests that Andraste was a mage seems to be discarded (though no one knows the reasons for the books current condition), and even the Canticle of Shartan, which is heresy, is openly studied by the Chanty's own scholars.

Given that in like, 1000 or so years of existance, Thedas has pretty much remained in a very limited state of development and technology when compared to say, the non-Chantry controlled nations of  The Qunari, and the Dwarves. The qunari and dwarves have various reasons for their state of advancement or decline, with very different and often just as dysfunctional systems as the Chantry. However, they are also societies that value knowledge and development of technology, since they either don't have, or have insane distrust of, magic.

If the Chantry promoted study, research, and discovery, Thedas would not be sitting around in the dark ages for 1000 years with little signifigant advancement or knowledge. Reading codexes written in ages past show a world that doesn't seem much different from the current one, in terms of knowledge and technological development. Magical development is certainly restricted and tightly controlled. But non-magical development seems non-existant.

Not to mention that heresy comes in many forms, and is not limited to theological differences. Scientific discoveries, historical controversies, even the arts have all been branded as heresy, and you occasionally get random codexes about various individuals in the past being declared heretics for questionable reasons. Unrelated to theology and magic.

This is not the image of an ideology that nurtures a culture of knowledge and discovery. Further added by the fact that every Cleric I've met in DA2, even the less violent ones, favor faith and superstition over everything else. Given the Chantry's power and influence over much of Thedas, it is likely the major factor of why Thedas is so technologically backwards. If it wasn't for magic, they'd be alot worse off in numerous areas.

Which brings up another interesting point. Given that the Chantry holds magic as a necessary evil that is held with utmost suspicion, it is surprising that they do not encourage and promote people to develop technology that could replace or even imitate magic through non-magical scientific principles. Given that their heathen neighbors, the dwarves and Qunari, have done so, you'd think the Chantry would also be encouraging non-magical solutions for many things. yet we see nothing of this in Thedas. Of course, the Chantry does control magic, so perhaps keeping magic as an advantage gives them a signifigant tool of power and influence. They also control and keep a tight reign on magical research too.

The extent of scholarship that the Chantry promotes is entirely limited to theological supportive ventures. I've yet to meet a Chantry sister that even remotely engaged in any sort of study or scholarly pursuit that is not related to the Chantry or its theology. Nor do I see much evidence that anyone inside of Andrastian nations independantly engaging in research or study. Beyond the Circles. Universities seem to be a very new thing, in fact.

[GavrielKay]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Which brings up another interesting point. Given that the Chantry holds magic as a necessary evil that is held with utmost suspicion, it is surprising that they do not encourage and promote people to develop technology that could replace or even imitate magic through non-magical scientific principles.

I wonder if it's a bit of "necessity is the mother of invention."  Magic does exist, and can be used, therefore replacements for it just aren't being developed.  The fact that magic is held captive doesn't stop them calling on it when in dire straits.  The necessity for alternatives isn't as strong as with the Dwarves who don't have magic and the Qunari who are even more opposed to using it than the Chantry.

[IanPolaris]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The extent of scholarship that the Chantry promotes is entirely limited to theological supportive ventures. I've yet to meet a Chantry sister that even remotely engaged in any sort of study or scholarly pursuit that is not related to the Chantry or its theology. Nor do I see much evidence that anyone inside of Andrastian nations independantly engaging in research or study. Beyond the Circles. Universities seem to be a very new thing, in fact.

Indeed.  The only Chantry Brother that even comes remotely close seems to be Brother Genitivi and most of the Chantry Hierarchy regards him as a borderline heretic to be barely tolerated.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

GavrielKay wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Which brings up another interesting point. Given that the Chantry holds magic as a necessary evil that is held with utmost suspicion, it is surprising that they do not encourage and promote people to develop technology that could replace or even imitate magic through non-magical scientific principles.

I wonder if it's a bit of "necessity is the mother of invention."  Magic does exist, and can be used, therefore replacements for it just aren't being developed.  The fact that magic is held captive doesn't stop them calling on it when in dire straits.  The necessity for alternatives isn't as strong as with the Dwarves who don't have magic and the Qunari who are even more opposed to using it than the Chantry.

A point. but if that were the reason, we should expect to see more "technological" magic, i.e. magic being used in the place of technology whether under Chantry auspicious or not...but we don't.  The "Andrastian" attitude fostered by the Chantry is "magic is good against the Qunari, otherwise it's evil and should avoided if possible, and it's existance ignored whenever possible".

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

GavrielKay wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Which brings up another interesting point. Given that the Chantry holds magic as a necessary evil that is held with utmost suspicion, it is surprising that they do not encourage and promote people to develop technology that could replace or even imitate magic through non-magical scientific principles.

I wonder if it's a bit of "necessity is the mother of invention."  Magic does exist, and can be used, therefore replacements for it just aren't being developed.  The fact that magic is held captive doesn't stop them calling on it when in dire straits.  The necessity for alternatives isn't as strong as with the Dwarves who don't have magic and the Qunari who are even more opposed to using it than the Chantry.

Possible, and somewhat likely, as far as motivation goes, or a lack of. My point was mainly that, had the Chantry really wanted to, by cloistering mages and limiting their influence, they could very well encourage non-magical study, if they were an institution that promoted and encouraged non religous, scholarly pursuits. But we don't see evidence, and since magic is a natural force and phenomenon of Thedas, and we see how much they restrict research and study mostly due to religous dogma than practicality, it shows me an organization that is interested in faith and worship than in promoting more mundane development.

And I certainly do not believe the secular governments of Thedas being a factor, as very few secular rulers would refuse research or technological advancement that could give them a strong advantage over an opponent or rival. But religous belief/influence is something powerful enough to keep alot of leaders in check, at least so long as said religous doctrine has considerable prevalence and influence in their society.

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think it's a little of both, actually.  ...

That IS (IMHO) pretty much a moral absolute (about as close as you get) and the mage/templar conflict as presented in Dragon Age Two comes very close to denying it.  This aspect of the conflict *IS* fundamentally flawed IMHO and should be abandoned.

-Polaris

You say it's a little bit of both, but I think you only argued the absolutist side. It sounds to me like although you might think the writing is bad, that bad writing isn't the reason you have this stance, and no amount of good writing would challenge your stance. If I understand you, you're saying that the conflict in DA2 is flawed because it tries to deny an absolute truth. To me, part of what makes the stories in Dragon Age fun is that, in my perception, they attempt to challenge the idea of an absolute truth.

[tmp7704]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The extent of scholarship that the Chantry promotes is entirely limited to theological supportive ventures. I've yet to meet a Chantry sister that even remotely engaged in any sort of study or scholarly pursuit that is not related to the Chantry or its theology. Nor do I see much evidence that anyone inside of Andrastian nations independantly engaging in research or study.

I really doubt the nations of Thedas just collectively woke up one day with their current level of knowledge of metallurgy, masonry, herbology, farming, sailing, all kinds of crafting etc. Pretty much everything you see around your character in DA is an evidence that there's been ongoing research and study in all kind of fields.

For that matter, you have "master Wade" in Denerim actively pursuing new techniques of armour crafting and designs, if only you bother to provide him with components.

Modifié par tmp7704, 31 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'd say the state of technological advancement in Thedas is more of a genre trope than anything else. The Qunari had their explosive powder when they first attacked humanity and they haven't developed more advanced technology in 300 years.

[esper]

tmp7704 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The extent of scholarship that the Chantry promotes is entirely limited to theological supportive ventures. I've yet to meet a Chantry sister that even remotely engaged in any sort of study or scholarly pursuit that is not related to the Chantry or its theology. Nor do I see much evidence that anyone inside of Andrastian nations independantly engaging in research or study.

I really doubt the nations of Thedas just collectively woke up one day with their current level of knowledge of metallurgy, masonry, herbology, farming, sailing, all kinds of crafting etc. Pretty much everything you see around your character in DA is an evidence that there's been ongoing research and study in all kind of fields.

For that matter, you have "master Wade" in Denerim actively pursuing new techniques of armour crafting and designs, if only you bother to provide him with components.

The imperium properly had a lot of scienes, they seemed to be power hungry to be willing to experiment. Also I don't think there are any religious restriction on crafts like woodcrafts, sailing, smithing, sewing.
Medicen, however, is controversial and given that the chantry likes to scream blood = blood magic and all blood magic is evil medicine is going to be really lacking.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

tmp7704 wrote...


I really doubt the nations of Thedas just collectively woke up one day with their current level of knowledge of metallurgy, masonry, herbology, farming, sailing, all kinds of crafting etc. Pretty much everything you see around your character in DA is an evidence that there's been ongoing research and study in all kind of fields.

For that matter, you have "master Wade" in Denerim actively pursuing new techniques of armour crafting and designs, if only you bother to provide him with components.

This level of technological progress has been pretty much unchanged for over a millenia. 1000 years and they are still about at the same level of technological development they have been 1000 years ago. That's not a society on the way to technological progression, especially since their neighbors already have canons, gunpowder, or really advanced magical practices (in the case of Tevinter). Interestingly enough, the time between the fall of the Roman Empire and rise of Christianity, and the time when the Rennisance and Reformation began, was about 1000 years. After the rennisance, when you look at how the world has changed in 500 years compared to the 1000 years of political and social dominance by the Church, well,....

The Chantry dates back to the second Blight and emporer Drakon. From the descriptions of the Blight, the levels of technology and advancement sound pretty much the same as they currently are in the Dragon Age. In those 1000 years, I see little advancement or improvement over the timespan that shows any technological development, or any general change in society beyond various wars and conflicts. It is not as if the qunari are in possesion of any great secret regarding basic gunpowder, since Anders shows you how to make an Awesome Bomb out of crap and the common mineral, sulphur.

Hell, the Chinese discovered gunpowder while seeking an elixir of immortality, and even then it took them a while to apply it to offensive use. But they made alot of other discoveries as well.

Not only do the qunari have gunpowder, they also have optics, like the spyglass you give Sigrun in Awakening. From the sounds of it, the qunari boast a pretty impressive list of technological advancements over Theodosians. It is because despite their failings and questionably rigid social structure, they do have a society that promotes excellence in ones directed role, and encourages exploration and experimentation within ridigly defined roles. It is still more than what much of Thedas has.

[GavrielKay]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think it's a little of both, actually.  ...

That IS (IMHO) pretty much a moral absolute (about as close as you get) and the mage/templar conflict as presented in Dragon Age Two comes very close to denying it.  This aspect of the conflict *IS* fundamentally flawed IMHO and should be abandoned.

-Polaris

You say it's a little bit of both, but I think you only argued the absolutist side. It sounds to me like although you might think the writing is bad, that bad writing isn't the reason you have this stance, and no amount of good writing would challenge your stance. If I understand you, you're saying that the conflict in DA2 is flawed because it tries to deny an absolute truth. To me, part of what makes the stories in Dragon Age fun is that, in my perception, they attempt to challenge the idea of an absolute truth.

I think there was a paper or something from a ethics guru that basically said genocide is always wrong unless directed at a group who would commit it against everyone else.  I tend to agree, which puts a really high bar on making something that looks like genocide (or clearly is genocide if you see it that way) into a gray moral issue.  As written, there are alternatives that make much more sense.

The circles could be likened to a quarantine zone where you've got several hundred people with something potentially dangerous that you want to keep away from everyone else.  If you run with that, then to say an RoA is ok would be like saying you could just euthanize everyone in a quarantine ward because you've decided it's just too dangerous to keep them alive knowing what might happen if one got loose.  To make the equivalent of an RoA morally ambiguous in that case, the "whatever" would have to be pretty freaking horrible. 

If you could somehow know ahead of time that even one of those people getting loose would lead to something like the Black Death in Europe where millions died (it was like 1/3 the population if I remember correctly) then maybe, just maybe, killing that group of hundreds would start to look like a viable option.

Lore states that the abomination that led to the institution of the RoA killed what was it, 80 people?  That's a pretty far cry from the plague.  More people probably died from the latest hurricane or volcano eruption.

There just isn't evidence in game that mages getting loose is SO horrible that it overcomes the extremely high bar set against simply killing a group of people because you don't like what they're capable of.

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

You say it's a little bit of both, but I think you only argued the absolutist side. It sounds to me like although you might think the writing is bad, that bad writing isn't the reason you have this stance, and no amount of good writing would challenge your stance. If I understand you, you're saying that the conflict in DA2 is flawed because it tries to deny an absolute truth. To me, part of what makes the stories in Dragon Age fun is that, in my perception, they attempt to challenge the idea of an absolute truth.

That is untrue.  I have argued that "freedom" is not absolute and even along with other sane posters have argued that given the premises, legal restrictions on magic (such as mandatory training) do make sense.  I've also admitted that in the case of the Fereldan Circle where you really did have an unquestionably dire situation, the only thing that I would have needed to decide morally and ethically that a Right of Annulment was really needed was to have abominations sucessfully "pass" as mages and then try to gank me at inopportune times (i.e. SHOW don't tell).  In such a case where there really in an emergency, and you really are facing a quarantine situation, and there is no way to tell who's 'infected' in who's not, then it really IS a grey area.

However, whether or not Bioware wants to admit this or not, I take umbrage as should all other modern civilized, ethical people that the conclusions of Nuremberg, aren't established moral facts.  Basically whether bioware wants to admit it or not, moral facts DO exist (and yes facts can change over time but that doesn't make them any less factual) and one of those FACTS is that it is immoral to knowingly punish someone for the crime that you know somone else committed.  Especially when that punishment is genocide.

The fact that DA 2 frames the templar/mage (security vs freedom) conflict in contravention of established moral fact is what makes it bad writing all attempt to justify it make the bad writing even less believable and thus even worse!  That's why I say it's both. 

If you look at the Fereldan possible example, it is possible to frame exactly the same sort of moral question in a grey way without asking us to give up on accepted moral facts.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 31 août 2011 - 10:45 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What on earth makes you think that the Chantry is against scientific development? That they are mistrusting of anatomical research is completely understandable, within the parameters of their world. But there seems to be no indication at all, that the Chantry is against any sort of research other than that. Nor do the Chantry seem to scoff at any technological advancements, or any advancement at all really. Only the theological studies seems to be disrupted. Though not even close to the extend that the Churc of the Dark Ages did. Only the book which suggests that Andraste was a mage seems to be discarded (though no one knows the reasons for the books current condition), and even the Canticle of Shartan, which is heresy, is openly studied by the Chanty's own scholars.

Given that in like, 1000 or so years of existance, Thedas has pretty much remained in a very limited state of development and technology when compared to say, the non-Chantry controlled nations of  The Qunari, and the Dwarves. The qunari and dwarves have various reasons for their state of advancement or decline, with very different and often just as dysfunctional systems as the Chantry. However, they are also societies that value knowledge and development of technology, since they either don't have, or have insane distrust of, magic.

If the Chantry promoted study, research, and discovery, Thedas would not be sitting around in the dark ages for 1000 years with little signifigant advancement or knowledge. Reading codexes written in ages past show a world that doesn't seem much different from the current one, in terms of knowledge and technological development. Magical development is certainly restricted and tightly controlled. But non-magical development seems non-existant.

Not to mention that heresy comes in many forms, and is not limited to theological differences. Scientific discoveries, historical controversies, even the arts have all been branded as heresy, and you occasionally get random codexes about various individuals in the past being declared heretics for questionable reasons. Unrelated to theology and magic.

This is not the image of an ideology that nurtures a culture of knowledge and discovery. Further added by the fact that every Cleric I've met in DA2, even the less violent ones, favor faith and superstition over everything else. Given the Chantry's power and influence over much of Thedas, it is likely the major factor of why Thedas is so technologically backwards. If it wasn't for magic, they'd be alot worse off in numerous areas.

Which brings up another interesting point. Given that the Chantry holds magic as a necessary evil that is held with utmost suspicion, it is surprising that they do not encourage and promote people to develop technology that could replace or even imitate magic through non-magical scientific principles. Given that their heathen neighbors, the dwarves and Qunari, have done so, you'd think the Chantry would also be encouraging non-magical solutions for many things. yet we see nothing of this in Thedas. Of course, the Chantry does control magic, so perhaps keeping magic as an advantage gives them a signifigant tool of power and influence. They also control and keep a tight reign on magical research too.

The extent of scholarship that the Chantry promotes is entirely limited to theological supportive ventures. I've yet to meet a Chantry sister that even remotely engaged in any sort of study or scholarly pursuit that is not related to the Chantry or its theology. Nor do I see much evidence that anyone inside of Andrastian nations independantly engaging in research or study. Beyond the Circles. Universities seem to be a very new thing, in fact.

That Thedas does not develop is not because of the Chantry preventing all technological and medical advancement. It is because Thedas has come to depend on magic. Look at it. The Dwarves and Qunari share one trait. Mages does not play a huge part in their society, and they have both developed technological marvels. Thedas, however, has come to depend on its mages for all purposes. Why study medicine whena  amge can heal you? Why develop gunpowder when a mage can blow up your enemy just as well? Magic has held the Thedosian development back. The Chantry doesn't prevent it though. They wouldn't prevent a man from developing any sort of substitute for what a mage can do (quite the contrary probably), but they aren't encouraging it either. They simply let it happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'd say the state of technological advancement in Thedas is more of a genre trope than anything else. The Qunari had their explosive powder when they first attacked humanity and they haven't developed more advanced technology in 300 years.

That too, of course.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Thedas, however, has come to depend on its mages for all purposes. Why study medicine whena  amge can heal you? Why develop gunpowder when a mage can blow up your enemy just as well? Magic has held the Thedosian development back. The Chantry doesn't prevent it though. They wouldn't prevent a man from developing any sort of substitute for what a mage can do (quite the contrary probably), but they aren't encouraging it either. They simply let it happen.

I do think knowing that magic can do certain things could lead to laziness in developing technology, as I said before, invention requires necessity.  However, where religions are extremely influencial, you do often find technology being less developed.  It depends on the religion of course, but medicine often suffers from this especially because life and death are commonly thought of as decisions meant to be left up to the deity.

I don't know that I ever saw a definitive codex or had a detailed conversation that declared the Chantry position on techology, but I wouldn't be at all surprised it if could be attributed to a combination of magic and dogma.

Of course, as someone else said, it is also just a trope of the genre.  It probably isn't terribly productive to debate "why?" in a world created entirely for a game.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The extent of scholarship that the Chantry promotes is entirely limited to theological supportive ventures. I've yet to meet a Chantry sister that even remotely engaged in any sort of study or scholarly pursuit that is not related to the Chantry or its theology. Nor do I see much evidence that anyone inside of Andrastian nations independantly engaging in research or study. Beyond the Circles. Universities seem to be a very new thing, in fact.

Indeed.  The only Chantry Brother that even comes remotely close seems to be Brother Genitivi and most of the Chantry Hierarchy regards him as a borderline heretic to be barely tolerated.

-Polaris

Sister Justine was interested in finding out the facts too. She said that balancing faith and reason is both difficult and often close to heretical.

Sister Justine and Brother Genitivi are the good scholarly religious people in the Chantry.


somewhat off topic side note: To talk about Ferelden going Church of England for a moment, it should be mentioned that aside from Knight Commander Gregoir who is fairly pro-mage, there are two other influential Templars who are pro-mage: Ser Bryant the head of Lothering's Templars (he's more pro-mage than most Templars) and Knight Commander Harrith in Redcliffe.

So you've got 3 important Templars who range from being fairly pro-mage to really pro-mage. I'd say most of the Templars would support Alistair going Church of England. Those that didn't would most likely leave for Orlais.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 août 2011 - 11:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Knight-Commander Greagoir is not pro-mage! He is the most pro-Circle Templar around. He wants the mages to live, sure. But in the goddamn Circle. He is NOT pro-mage.

Ser Bryant is not pro-mage. He has bigger fish to fry, than a Grey Warden mage (who is outside his juridstiction anyway) and his companions. He is NOT pro-mage.

Harrith is though.... As long as they supply him with his lyirum...

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So you've got 3 important Templars who range from being fairly pro-mage to really pro-mage. I'd say most of the Templars would support Alistair going Church of England. Those that didn't would most likely leave for Orlais.

I think it would be safer to say you've got a few Templars who are pro-sanity.  They aren't extremists and are willing to actually think about a situation and act in a way that makes sense.  We don't see nearly enough of that in DA2.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We meet, what? Four named Templars who are of questionable character?

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Knight-Commander Greagoir is not pro-mage! He is the most pro-Circle Templar around. He wants the mages to live, sure. But in the goddamn Circle. He is NOT pro-mage.

Ser Bryant is not pro-mage. He has bigger fish to fry, than a Grey Warden mage (who is outside his juridstiction anyway) and his companions. He is NOT pro-mage.

Harrith is though.... As long as they supply him with his lyirum...

I called Greagoir a fairly pro-mage person. Not completely pro-mage, but fairly pro-mage (though GavrielKay's pro-sanity is a better description).

Bryant is also fairly pro-mage. Morrigan is traveling with the Warden (if you're not a Mage yourself) and by Chantry dogma all apostates are dangerous and should be captured. Yes he has bigger fish to fry in that he has to protect the citizens from the Darkspawn, but Chantry dogma says he also has to protect them from apostates. The fact that he's willing to let one apostate go free shows that he's fairly pro-mage.