1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
Uh, yeah, it is.  Turning to blood magic to protect your life is a cop out.  They already have magic, magic that makes them more powerful than their agressors by default.

First off, anything they do in defense of their lives happens after you choose to support the RoA or not, so can't factor into the decision.  Second, blood magic is a tool, not inherently good or evil.  Using a tool to defend your life sounds pretty reasonable to me.  Turning into an abomination is not reasonable, but by the time you're going to die anyway, you're probably not making rational decisions.

Second, the magic you think they should use is exactly what the Templars are trained to defend against, so that argument is just silly.

And I do not feel for the weak willed people that turn to blood magic, they lose their humanity for nothing.

Blood magic doesn't cost them their humanity.  Using it for mind control or taking someone else's blood by force is a different matter.  Using their own blood to defend their own life seems pretty human to me.

And instead of using that fact to justify the Templar ending, Bioware instead makes us back a lunatic that is being brain controlled by a lyrium idol, and these same people tell me Bioware was trying to get people to feel for the templars?  Really?  Really?

They appear to be trying to make it a "gray" choice by making sure you end up hating both sides.  It only kinda worked.  The choice wasn't gray, but both sides got to look stupid.

What kind of Templar is Meredith anyway that she goes out and buys this crazy primeval lyrium idol and makes it into a sword?  That doesn't sound like the sort of thing a strict Templar ought to do.

Part of learing blood magic is making deals with demons; you lose your humanity when the demon comes to collect.  Just because Bioware never has that happen to you is another thing altogether.

Grey doesn't mean I don't like both sides.  Grey means "Eh, I could see what both sides are arguing."

This was a black versus black choice which I stated initially, because Bioware doesn't do grey.  Which is fine, but then don't try to posit the choice as being grey.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
So, you complain about the lore after not reading the lore, because... what, reading is hard?

Well reading what you think is crap, is hard.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Only it was clear for the longest time before she became possessed how dangerous it was to go down that "path" she still kept doing it completely ignoring her people.

You see what the mirror does in the dalish orgin. You see Merrill make a deal with a demon for power in the Fade.

But you are right she is a good blood mage.

[Xilizhra]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Only it was clear for the longest time before she became possessed how dangerous it was to go down that "path" she still kept doing it completely ignoring her people.

You see what the mirror does in the dalish orgin. You see Merrill make a deal with a demon for power in the Fade.

But you are right she is a good blood mage.

It's not a bloody deal. It's mind control. Everyone falls for it except the one who's already being controlled by a spirit. They don't go after Hawke because they want her dead.

And it's only "clear" if you have your head up your ironically overtraditionalist ass in a Marethari-esque fashion.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So, you complain about the lore after not reading the lore, because... what, reading is hard?

Well reading what you think is crap, is hard.

Pretty much this.  I know what crap they wrote to justify DA2 is there, I have read it.  It doesn't mean it isn't crap nonetheless.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
If Bioware wanted to make that part of the ingame lore, you as a mage would be visited by demons.  It never happens because the codex was a cop out for their crappy writing.

This I agree with completely.  All this crap about mages being constantly bombarded by demons trying to use them and such, where's the game play to support it?  If mages are involuntary exploding kitties, then I should have at least one quest where I'm fighting against possession by a demon when playing a mage.

[Harid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Only it was clear for the longest time before she became possessed how dangerous it was to go down that "path" she still kept doing it completely ignoring her people.

You see what the mirror does in the dalish orgin. You see Merrill make a deal with a demon for power in the Fade.

But you are right she is a good blood mage.

It's not a bloody deal. It's mind control. Everyone falls for it except the one who's already being controlled by a spirit. They don't go after Hawke because they want her dead.

And it's only "clear" if you have your head up your ironically overtraditionalist ass in a Marethari-esque fashion.

It was pretty clear, and several people, from anyone who has played DA1, to Fenris, to even Flemeth warning her about her paths conclusion.

But you guys can ignore all of that stuff cause of those poor, poor mages.

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

Are mages not helping to burn Kirkwall? Or do i remember a different ending sequence than the rest of you.

Varric's endgame dialogue never says the mages of Kirkwall are burning the city-state. He does state that there were "many survivors" if Hawke protects the mages from Meredith.

Harid wrote...

Who set fire to the town? Anders' explosion?

The only exposion we see is the one caused by Anders, with some fires being spread because of the blast.

Harid wrote...

The mages running around town? The Templars, maybe, for no reason?

But again, I am not getting in this argument on these forums; mages good, templars bad, blah blah blah.

No one knows what Varric meant when he said they "set the world on fire." It's intentionally vague.

"Mages good, templars bad"? You're starting to sound like Gaider here, who makes the same claims when people disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles. Plenty of pro-mage people have acknowledged Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, Knight-Commander Greagoir, and the Lothering templars as good people. Even Ser Thrask was seen as a good templar. Personally, I disagree with what the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars are doing to the mages, but that doesn't mean I think every templar in Thedas is bad.

[Xilizhra]

It was pretty clear, and several people, from anyone who has played DA1, to Fenris, to even Flemeth warning her about her paths conclusion.

But you guys can ignore all of that stuff cause of those poor, poor mages.

The DA1 problem was solved, Fenris is blinded and broken, and Flemeth just told her to be careful about it.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

I guess Flemeth warning her is bull**** too.

And yet she completely ignores it. Look keep arguing that Merrill knew what she was doing while everyone else was apparently wrong. 

Its obvious nothing is going to change your opinion on that so we will leave it at that and wait for the story to be continued so we can see how much darker her path actually takes her.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 01 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

I guess Flemeth warning her is bull**** too.

As I said, Flemeth just told her to be careful.

[jlb524]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

I guess Flemeth warning her is bull**** too.

Flemeth told her to keep her eyes open along her path, not to give up following the path entirely.

[Harid]

Xilizhra wrote...

It was pretty clear, and several people, from anyone who has played DA1, to Fenris, to even Flemeth warning her about her paths conclusion.

But you guys can ignore all of that stuff cause of those poor, poor mages.

The DA1 problem was solved, Fenris is blinded and broken, and Flemeth just told her to be careful about it.

See?  Hiow many things can one plauibly ignore to keep their black and white viewpoint?

I think i said I was done here.  I am.  I have better things to do than yell at a wall.

[Xilizhra]

Harid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It was pretty clear, and several people, from anyone who has played DA1, to Fenris, to even Flemeth warning her about her paths conclusion.

But you guys can ignore all of that stuff cause of those poor, poor mages.

The DA1 problem was solved, Fenris is blinded and broken, and Flemeth just told her to be careful about it.

See?  Hiow many things can one plauibly ignore to keep their black and white viewpoint?

I think i said I was done here.  I am.  I have better things to do than yell at a wall.

This is the third or fourth time you've said that. I eagerly await to see if it'll come true. Though it seems more likely that you've simply run out of actual evidence, were there any to begin with.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
Part of learing blood magic is making deals with demons; you lose your humanity when the demon comes to collect.  Just because Bioware never has that happen to you is another thing altogether.

Grey doesn't mean I don't like both sides.  Grey means "Eh, I could see what both sides are arguing."

This was a black versus black choice which I stated initially, because Bioware doesn't do grey.  Which is fine, but then don't try to posit the choice as being grey.

Apparently it is possible to learn blood magic through books.  It is quicker through demons, but that's not the only way.

I don't think a gray moral choice is merely seeing it from both sides.  I can understand a power hungry madman, but that doesn't make it a gray choice whether to stop him or not.  Likewise with Meredith.  I can understand she had a personality altering childhood trauma.  She can still be utterly wrong to call the RoA on the Kirkwall circle.

A grey choice would be knowing that the circle is well and truly compromised, that it is impossible to tell an abomination from an innocent and the imminent breakout of all the mages involved.  Now we have a real choice...  attempt to spare the innocents, not knowing for sure that they are, or kill everyone to be certain the guilty are not set free. 

As it is, we have only a group of mages who don't want a paranoid zealot storming the tower looking for evidence against them.  That is not a crime punishable by death in any morality I know of.

[Melca36]

Xilizhra wrote...

Harid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It was pretty clear, and several people, from anyone who has played DA1, to Fenris, to even Flemeth warning her about her paths conclusion.

But you guys can ignore all of that stuff cause of those poor, poor mages.

The DA1 problem was solved, Fenris is blinded and broken, and Flemeth just told her to be careful about it.

See?  Hiow many things can one plauibly ignore to keep their black and white viewpoint?

I think i said I was done here.  I am.  I have better things to do than yell at a wall.

This is the third or fourth time you've said that. I eagerly await to see if it'll come true. Though it seems more likely that you've simply run out of actual evidence, were there any to begin with.

Somehow I don't think he will be happy unless every single mage in Thedas is executed.

[LobselVith8]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Its okay the abominations blood mages and pride demon/desire demons are just friends helping some of their innocent mage friends.

Do you mean the abominations that come out of the ground because they are being summoned, which seems to contradict lore (and according to one developers is simply an issue of game mechanics because abominations aren't summoned)? Or do you mean the blood mage at the docks who attacks pro-mage Hawke because the blood mage is apparently pro-templar?

All I know is that the Knight-Commander is demanding Hawke's help because she wants to appease the mob, and I don't see a reason to kill hundreds simply to appease a hypothetical mob's imagined bloodlust.

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

Part of learing blood magic is making deals with demons; you lose your humanity when the demon comes to collect.  Just because Bioware never has that happen to you is another thing altogether.

No it's not.  There is zero, zippo, nada evidence that says you must deal with a demon to learn bloodmagic, and there is very strong at least circumstantial evidence in the game that this is not a requirement.  Dealing with a demon may be the most common way to learn bloodmagic but it's not the only way, and even dealing with a demon does not automatically make you lose your humanity.  I had a lily white Warden in DAO learn bloodmagic from the desire demon....in exchange for the demon's life only (she still had to vacate Conner).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Its okay the abominations blood mages and pride demon/desire demons are just friends helping some of their innocent mage friends.

Pretty much.

It's why you cannot have this argument on these forums. You are dealing with a bunch of people that clearly ignore parts of the game to strengthen their arguments.

How many good Blood Mages have we even met? One that you can have killed? One. It's like. . .blood magic isn't inherently evil, except all of the evil people you meet using it. But that one exception. . .clearly. . .proves everything wrong about Blood Magic.

Couldn't you also ask how many mage antagonists weren't insane and stupid? Given that you acknowledge bad writing played a part in Dragon Age 2, I don't see why you think blood magic is evil when Duncan (in the Magi Origin) addresses that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, and even the Joining can be viewed as blood magic. Even the blood mage who The Warden encounters in "A Broken Circle" states that she used blood magic to secure the freedom of her people, not for any malevolent purpose, and she's willing to risk her life to fight the darkspawn (if The Warden is also a blood mage).

[moilami]

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Part of learing blood magic is making deals with demons; you lose your humanity when the demon comes to collect.  Just because Bioware never has that happen to you is another thing altogether.

No it's not.  There is zero, zippo, nada evidence that says you must deal with a demon to learn bloodmagic, and there is very strong at least circumstantial evidence in the game that this is not a requirement.  Dealing with a demon may be the most common way to learn bloodmagic but it's not the only way, and even dealing with a demon does not automatically make you lose your humanity.  I had a lily white Warden in DAO learn bloodmagic from the desire demon....in exchange for the demon's life only (she still had to vacate Conner).

-Polaris

Surprisingly enough the easiest way to learn blood magic is by the demons since blood magic is illegal everywhere - I mean could that be the reason why there is no faculty of blood magic in Thedas 

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
It was pretty clear, and several people, from anyone who has played DA1, to Fenris, to even Flemeth warning her about her paths conclusion.

But you guys can ignore all of that stuff cause of those poor, poor mages.

Actually, defending Merrill is only tangential to the overall mage debate.  I happen to agree that Merrill is a fool who is obsessed with something dangerous.  She would much better serve her people by being a good First and finding some other forgotten piece of elvhen history to recover.  One that doesn't require dealing with a demon.  Her appeal is something about her specifically, not simply supporting the mages.

The big problem for me is that the annulment deals with mages as a group.  It says, everyone in this circle is beyond saving and must be killed.  As presented in DA2 you're supposed to make that decision with almost no knowledge of the mages in the cirlce or what they're up to.  Anything that happens outside the cirlce can't be held against them, because obviously they didn't do it.

[LobselVith8]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yep blood magic is not evil. Kirkwall is only built ontop of a lake of blood from slave sacrifices to help the magisters gain some power.

So I suppose armor and blades are inherently evil, since Vaughan and his men used them to kidnap women out of the Alienage (in Origins)? Considering that blood magic provides us with the order of the Grey Wardens - who are responsible for defeating Archdemons and putting an end to the Blight - I don't view blood magic as evil, especially when some Grey Warden mages use it to defeat the greatest threat known to Thedas.

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Mage supporters that support anders killing innocents in the chantry but do not think its alright for the templars to kill innocents. Thats just hilarious.

Some people who agree with freeing the mages from the Chantry and the templars do kill Anders. Other people support what Anders did because they don't see the Chantry as an innocent party, since the Chantry controls the Order of Templars and the Circles of Magi. Even Grand Cleric Elthina's codex entry addresses her as Meredith's superior.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

And some people do not view the mages as innocent. Deal with it.

[Xilizhra]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And some people do not view the mages as innocent. Deal with it.

I would consider their morals to be on the highly shaky side. Of course, all morality is opinion.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Its something I've considered before. It is possible that there are ways, methods, and disciplines for learning blood magic that does not involve going through a demonic agency. However, it is likely the knowledge of how to do this has been lost, as alot of magical knowleghe has been lost, both by Tevinter's fall and Andrastian purges. Thus, probably the reason that the majority of blood magic practiced today is either powered by, or taught by demons. Because they sort of hold a monopoly on information in this regard since the Chantry really has no jurisdiction in the Fade or knowledge there. I would venture that even books on blood magic found are likely to be how to guides, for locating the right demon and getting the knowledge. So I would say that the vast majority of mages currently practicing blood magic learned to do so through demonic agencies.

This would not be because blood magic or blood mages are inherently evil, but that currently, the only known source is demons. because all other possible routes seem to have been destroyed or forgotten and lost.