1253 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And some people do not view the mages as innocent. Deal with it.

Well the ones who don't, are apparently moral monsters who have tea with Freddy Krueger and Hitler every wednesday...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 01 septembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[jlb524]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And some people do not view the mages as innocent. Deal with it.

Which mages?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And some people do not view the mages as innocent. Deal with it.

I would consider their morals to be on the highly shaky side. Of course, all morality is opinion.

As long as you can accept that there are other opinions than you own, instead of simply denying them (like certain others), then that is cool.

[GavrielKay]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And some people do not view the mages as innocent. Deal with it.

Interesting debate technique.

So no mage is innocent?  Ever?  Or are you referring to the apostates?  Or the circle mages?  Or Anders?  Merrill?  What about mageHawke herself?

Lumping folks together based on a birth trait is, as was put already, shaky ground.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 01 septembre 2011 - 05:52 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Mages in general. They will always be dangerous despite having all the best intentions in the world they will always be viewed as just that "Dangerous beings" its something they will always be guilty of.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
What about mageHawke herself?

Hawke should be executed for idiocy...

Now that this joke is out of the way, gameplay / story segregation. We never played a real mage in DA:O or DA2. We are protected by plot armor and we never get to experience what mages experience.

It's an invalid example.

[Harid]

Melca36 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Harid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It was pretty clear, and several people, from anyone who has played DA1, to Fenris, to even Flemeth warning her about her paths conclusion.

But you guys can ignore all of that stuff cause of those poor, poor mages.

The DA1 problem was solved, Fenris is blinded and broken, and Flemeth just told her to be careful about it.

See?  Hiow many things can one plauibly ignore to keep their black and white viewpoint?

I think i said I was done here.  I am.  I have better things to do than yell at a wall.

This is the third or fourth time you've said that. I eagerly await to see if it'll come true. Though it seems more likely that you've simply run out of actual evidence, were there any to begin with.

Somehow I don't think he will be happy unless every single mage in Thedas is executed.

I don't hold this viewpoint, but if you aren't wanton pro mage around here that is what your viewpoint is simplified to; which is why I stated I am not wasting my time arguing the point here.  It's a waste of my time.

I only came back to clarify that point, and unless people are going to say I kill kittens, I truly have nothing more to say in this thread.

As I have stated several times, I am pro humanity.  And while mages are part of that humanity, when they make the choice to summon demons, to use blood magic, when they want freedom with no plan of what will happen afterward, when they want to destroy the chantry with nothing to supplant it, I am not pro that mage plan.  As mages are now, with no leadership, and no goal other than freedom, mages are tantamount to anarchists, and I do not support anarchists ever.

So when mages get a leader and get a plan on what they plan to do, once they have won to the regular people they are more powerful than, when they have a plan that extends past "We want freedom!" then we can talk.

Till then, I will not back mages on principle.

(Which isn't to say the chantry is perfect, they could clearly treat mages better.)

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Mages in general. They will always be dangerous despite having all the best intentions in the world they will always be viewed as just that "Dangerous beings" its something they will always be guilty of.

Them being dangerous has nothing to do with guilt, or them being innocent or not.
I agree they are dangerous. They are not automatically guilty because of it. Especially since them being dangerous is innate, and they had no choice over what they were born with.

It's those who can only see danger and threat and not opportunity and a resource, that I'd say are guilty. Guilty of narrowmindedness, hatred, lack of vision and cowardice.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

You're right, but they are being guilty of being dangerous time bombs it is something that can't help but it doesn't change the fact that is what they are.

I'm against mage oppression and i'm very much against having them all killed, but mages will never be tolerated in Thedas they will never be considered equals and they will always be feared. Do they deserve it? Of course not but it's how Thedas operate and some people will always view them as not being innocent.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:02 .

[GavrielKay]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Mages in general. They will always be dangerous despite having all the best intentions in the world they will always be viewed as just that "Dangerous beings" its something they will always be guilty of.

How they are viewed by whom?  By the Chantry and the folks they brain wash? 

Because the Dalish don't think that way.  Nor do the Rivaini or the Chasind by all accounts.

Anyway, dangerous is different from guilty.  And I really hope that is the morality of your Hawke and not yourself.

[LobselVith8]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Because turning into a demon does not further the point that the circle mages are indeed practicing blood magic or capable of summoning a demon to aid the and just prove Merediths right?

Considering the Veil becomes thin with excessive death and Meredith ordered the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children, how do you know mages were responsible for every demon witnessed? Meredith asks Hawke to kill an entire population of people because she wants to appease the mob - the hypothetical one she mentions who "will demand blood." The Veil becomes thin when there's a great deal of death, and demons pass through - which is addressed as the result of the massacres that transpired in the New Exalted Marches (against the Qunari).

As the codex entry about the Qunari attests to: "Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the Qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses to this day."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

You're right, but they are being guilty of being dangerous time bombs it is something that can't help but it doesn't change the fact that is what they are.

They are not guilty of it, they didn't choose to become "dangerous time bombs".

They are dangerous, but they are not guilty for being dangerous.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

GavrielKay wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Mages in general. They will always be dangerous despite having all the best intentions in the world they will always be viewed as just that "Dangerous beings" its something they will always be guilty of.

How they are viewed by whom?  By the Chantry and the folks they brain wash? 

Because the Dalish don't think that way.  Nor do the Rivaini or the Chasind by all accounts.

Anyway, dangerous is different from guilty.  And I really hope that is the morality of your Hawke and not yourself.

Lol, you think it's only people that believe in the chantry or the order that view them as dangerous? 

Everyone does its a fact when you have a group of people that can control that much power they are always going to be feared.

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Are you referring to the apostates we encounter through the game or the circle mages who turn to whatever they can in order to defend themselves once the RoA is called?

The apostates crimes can't be used against circle mages because well, they aren't circle mages.

Anything the mages do in defense of their own lives is a whole different matter and couldn't have been taken into consideration at the point where you have to make the choice.

As to the fires, some of them could have been started by the rioters Meredith is sure will be out for blood.

Uh, yeah, it is.  Turning to blood magic to protect your life is a cop out.  They already have magic, magic that makes them more powerful than their agressors by default. 

Magic that can be nullified by the templars, the exception being blood magic.

Harid wrote...

And I do not feel for the weak willed people that turn to blood magic, they lose their humanity for nothing. 

Like the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to defeat the darkspawn and protect the world, you mean? Or the people who use blood magic to create the Grey Wardens who are responsible for saving the world from the Blights?

Harid wrote...

I am supposed to, as a regular, non magey person, back a bunch of people who sacrifice their humanity selfishly, unleashing horrors that I am supposed to deal with, summon demons that are stronger than what most people can kill plausibly but the Templars. . .for some plausible reason.  

You're welcome to support the templars if you want, that's why there's a choice between siding with the mages or siding with the templars. I simply don't see a reason to judge all mages for the actions of the few, or in Meredith's case, condemning all to death for the actions of one.

Harid wrote...

And instead of using that fact to justify the Templar ending, Bioware instead makes us back a lunatic that is being brain controlled by a lyrium idol, and these same people tell me Bioware was trying to get people to feel for the templars?  Really?  Really?

It was quite clear who Bioware wanted you to choose to back at the end of this game.

Considering that Orsino becomes a Harvester when Hawke defeats a horde of templars and the developers admitted it was because they didn't want the mage ending to be seen as "the good ending," not to mention it was given as the reason why Orsino worked with Quentin, we had lunatics on both sides.

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
What about mageHawke herself?

Hawke should be executed for idiocy...

Now that this joke is out of the way, gameplay / story segregation. We never played a real mage in DA:O or DA2. We are protected by plot armor and we never get to experience what mages experience.

It's an invalid example.

Not any more invalid than deciding guilt or innocence based on the involuntary act of being born.

Anyway, yes, Hawke acts the idiot most of the game regardless of class.  As do most of the people around her.

I am still somewhat baffled about how a group of developers and writers sat around a table and decided that the whole layout of DA2 was the way to go.  Between idiocy, forced 3 year gaps and a thoroughly ambivalent ending, I was longing for a simple "save the world" story.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Guilt maybe the wrong choice of word. But they are not innocent of being dangerous and thats all the people of Thedas will ever look at.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Guilt maybe the wrong choice of word. But they are not innocent of being dangerous and thats all the people of Thedas will ever look at.

I think their attitude, if it cannot be changed, can be suppressed and kept at bay, with the right institutions and social arrangements, and the right leadership.

[GavrielKay]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...
Lol, you think it's only people that believe in the chantry or the order that view them as dangerous? 

Everyone does its a fact when you have a group of people that can control that much power they are always going to be feared.

I provided several examples of societies where mages live among the people and any incidents are handled when required.  They can be respected and honored for their power when they use it for the good of their people.  The Chantry locking them away and treating them like rabid dogs is hardly proven to make society better.  The Dalish are isolationist jerks, but as a people they are doing just fine with mages leading them.

Some people will always be afraid of anyone different (let alone more powerful) than themselves.  Caving in to that base nature and refusing to see that magic can be used for good as well as evil is wasting a great resource and oppressing an undeserving majority of mages who never do anything wrong.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Suppressing the attitude of everyone on Thedas would work for a time before it erupts into another bloody conflict.

[jlb524]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Guilt maybe the wrong choice of word. But they are not innocent of being dangerous and thats all the people of Thedas will ever look at.

'Not innocent' is kind of the same as 'guilty'.

I'd say most people think that because of Chantry teachings (which can be changed) and not everyone does think that (I'd say the families of these mages see them as more than just 'dangerous').

[IanPolaris]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Guilt maybe the wrong choice of word. But they are not innocent of being dangerous and thats all the people of Thedas will ever look at.

Innocent is also the wrong choice of words here.  Mages are born with a trait that is very dangeous if untrained, but that doesn't make a mage (or anyone else) guilty or innocent.

You can only be guilty or innocent based on your choices in life, not what you are.  That's pretty fundamental really.

Now if you have a mage that chooses to eshew training and/or chooses  to use his or her magic for evil ends, then that mage is guilty...but not of being a mage but of being a criminal, the same as any other criminal.

No one (at least no one reasonable) is saying that magic isn't potentially dangerous and needs to be regulated or that mages need to have specific (and mandatory) training just for starters.

That's a far cry from painting all mages or even all circle mages with one black brush and finding them guilty of a crime especially when you know for certain that they are not.

-Polaris

[Follow Me on Twitter]

No. what the chantry preaches is that mages are dangerous. The mages ARE dangerous. Therefore they are not innocent of what it is the chantry blames them of.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Guilt maybe the wrong choice of word. But they are not innocent of being dangerous and thats all the people of Thedas will ever look at.

I think their attitude, if it cannot be changed, can be suppressed and kept at bay, with the right institutions and social arrangements, and the right leadership.

Civil Rights in the US South is an especially good example of this.  People's attitudes didn't change much from the 1960s to the early (at least) 1980s, but when the object of your prejudice is wearing a uniform, packing a gun, and wearing a badge, you tend to be a lot  less open about expressing it which means that espousing such ideas becomes socially unacceptable.  Force really can cause an attitude adjustment if only by making it crystal clear that bad attitudes can have unfortunate consequences.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

No. what the chantry preaches is that mages are dangerous. The mages ARE dangerous. Therefore they are not innocent of what it is the chantry blames them of.

You can't be guilty of being what you are.  It's a non sequitor.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Suppressing the attitude of everyone on Thedas would work for a time before it erupts into another bloody conflict.

Bloody conflicts are a necessity, and a desired one from my perspective. Tryign to reach ultimate absolute peace is an illusion, or lie as my Sith side would say.

That shouldn't stop people from trying to improve, their attitudes above all.
Nor does it prevent actual change of attitudes and not just supressing hatred, difficult as though it may be.