1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Follow Me on Twitter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

No. what the chantry preaches is that mages are dangerous. The mages ARE dangerous. Therefore they are not innocent of what it is the chantry blames them of.

You can't be guilty of being what you are.  It's a non sequitor.

-Polaris

Cool we agree then. Too bad the chantry does not. And too bad thats the reason they will always try to keep them oppressed.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Suppressing the attitude of everyone on Thedas would work for a time before it erupts into another bloody conflict.

Bloody conflicts are a necessity, and a desired one from my perspective. Tryign to reach ultimate absolute peace is an illusion, or lie as my Sith side would say.

That shouldn't stop people from trying to improve, their attitudes above all.
Nor does it prevent actual change of attitudes and not just supressing hatred, difficult as though it may be.

As an addendumt to this, as Robert Heinlein put it in Starship Troopers, Raw Violence has solve more human problems than all other methods combined.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

No. what the chantry preaches is that mages are dangerous. The mages ARE dangerous. Therefore they are not innocent of what it is the chantry blames them of.

You can't be guilty of being what you are.  It's a non sequitor.

-Polaris

Cool we agree then. Too bad the chantry does not. And too bad thats the reason they will always try to keep them oppressed.

It's not just the Chantry that's made this mistake.  DG himself calls mages being guilty of being "exploding kittens".  Yes that's a slight paraphrase but not by very much.  He too didn't get the memo.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

IanPolaris wrote...
Force really can cause an attitude adjustment if only by making it crystal clear that bad attitudes can have unfortunate consequences.
-Polaris

Plus, if you stop teaching hate to everyone, eventually those who were taught such things die out and less and less of that attitude is passed down through the generations.  If trained mages were allowed to live more or less freely among the people, eventually, new generations would simply grow up with mages as a fact of life.  Dismissing something as fundamental as human rights for an oppressed minority as difficult is just as much a cop out as any other in DA2.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

And that is the mage dilemma isn't it? Good people born with a power that will always make them dangerous and all it takes is having one bad day to add more fuel to the fire.

[LobselVith8]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Suppressing the attitude of everyone on Thedas would work for a time before it erupts into another bloody conflict.

Technically, the attitude towards magic and mages differs in the non-Andrastian societies. Mages aren't controlled among the Avvar tribes or the Chasind Wilders, the seers and witches of the Kingdom of Rivain are free, and the Dalish clans have mages living alongside non-mages, as we see with Aneirin the Healer. The issue is with Andrastian nations in Thedas, who have lived through a millennia of being taught by the Chantry of Andraste that magic is a "curse." Perhaps hope might begin in Ferelden if The Warden is a mage, as the Hero of Ferelden can demonstrate time and again (from the Fifth Blight to the crisis in Amaranthine) that a mage can use his abilities to help. It does seem like King Alistair is still fighting for the Magi boon if the Hero of Ferelden asked for his people to be given their independence, and regardless of The Warden's background, the King is protecting apostates from the templars.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And that is the mage dilemma isn't it? Good people born with a power that will always make them dangerous and all it takes is having one bad day to add more fuel to the fire.

Joker reference? It's a good one and I agree.

But mages also provide opportunity, a resource and virtually unlimited potential. Are we to discard that, because it's easier to just dismiss them as dangerous? I am of the opinion, that such a waste outweighs the pertinence of fear. And waste is something I personally, cannot abide by.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

The problem with it is. They would have to completely dismantle the chantry and destroy a religion in order to do so. Which is just very difficult for me to see without the mages doing exactly what Meredith had planned to the people of that religion and making it just as wrong if not even more.


Edit: Yes joker reference, i love that reference it's a good one.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:30 .

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Force really can cause an attitude adjustment if only by making it crystal clear that bad attitudes can have unfortunate consequences.
-Polaris

Plus, if you stop teaching hate to everyone, eventually those who were taught such things die out and less and less of that attitude is passed down through the generations.  If trained mages were allowed to live more or less freely among the people, eventually, new generations would simply grow up with mages as a fact of life.  Dismissing something as fundamental as human rights for an oppressed minority as difficult is just as much a cop out as any other in DA2.

Quentin was a trained mage.  Decimus was a trained mage.  Uldred was a trained mage.  Mages will need policing no matter where they go to protect people from the mages they cannot protect themselves against.  It's why full on freedom is implausible, because it one takes one mage to ruin it to the people that live around them.  This, mind you is talking about the transition from towers to full freedom that some of you people want.  Change never occurs that quickly especially with this war, people aren't granting them freedom, and people will not like their leaders esposing that change on them. 

You can quote the Avvar or the Riviani, but we don't know how those people deal with abominations,  We have yet to see it first hand, and we have yet to see if it's really any better of a situation for the people who live in those areas.  We don't even know the extent of the power those mages are allowed to have, so they cannot be quoted as being better until we actually get to go to those areas, and I would bet we will never see Rivain out of stepping into it for a quest in the future.

And hate doesn't die out over time.  See Xbox live/PSN **** talking, see any youtube comments section involving black people.  People keep the same ideas, they just don't say them out loud, they keep them subversive.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The veil cannot be mended once torn. Even Avernus says that. Nor can you even be sure that the magic Avernus used could be used in a case as severe as Kirkwall. Nor does the entry you linked state that Blood Magic is the ONLY way to thin the veil, only that i can be used for that purpose.

 I must have imagined that ritual as soldier's keep then.  It's canonical that a torn veil CAN be repaired albeit with extreem difficulty.  See also the Blackmarsh.  You also repair the torn veil there (pretty much explicitly).

Is the veil as strong as it was?  No.  Is it repaired?  Yes.

-Polaris

Edit:  Even if the veil IS past repairing in Kirkwall, you can do the sensible thing and NOT put the mage's circle in the magical equivalent of a toxic waste dump.

Neither Warden's Peak, nor Blackmarsh is ever fully repaired.....

Fully? Perhaps not, but the Veil was stlil strengthened and repaired, and that's what counts. Avernus continues his research in the tower and there are no more demons or corpses plaguing the Keep. If there were, you can bet your ass that Levi, Mikhael, and their family would be dead. He even allows his kids inside the Keep, so long as they stay away from Avernus.

The Blackmarsh's Veil was repaired. Maybe not as strong as other places, but it was still repaired. People ended up going back there to live, and the only place that seemed to still be plagued by demons and a thin Veil was the Baroness' mansion herself.

Had Kirkwall's Templars and Chantry been smart, they would've either tried to repair the thin Veil or move all of the mages to another, more friendly and less Hellmouth place.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Follow me on twitter
The religion does not have to be destroyed, it can be reformed. The Chantry as a political institution, cannot remain the way it is however, imo. It either reforms on its own, something I doubt will ever happen due to both narrowmindedness and not wanting to lose power. Or it is cast aside, and either eliminated entirely or reduced to a spiritual institution only.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:33 .

[GavrielKay]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

The problem with it is. They would have to completely dismantle the chantry and destroy a religion in order to do so. Which is just very difficult for me to see without the mages doing exactly what Meredith had planned to the people of that religion and making it just as wrong if not even more.


Edit: Yes joker reference, i love that reference it's a good one.

All they would have to do is emphasize the gift of magic vs. the curse of it.  "Magic is meant to serve man" can also be interpreted to mean that mages should use their powers for the good of society.  Only interpretation and attitudes need to change, not the chant itself.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The veil cannot be mended once torn. Even Avernus says that. Nor can you even be sure that the magic Avernus used could be used in a case as severe as Kirkwall. Nor does the entry you linked state that Blood Magic is the ONLY way to thin the veil, only that i can be used for that purpose.

 I must have imagined that ritual as soldier's keep then.  It's canonical that a torn veil CAN be repaired albeit with extreem difficulty.  See also the Blackmarsh.  You also repair the torn veil there (pretty much explicitly).

Is the veil as strong as it was?  No.  Is it repaired?  Yes.

-Polaris

Edit:  Even if the veil IS past repairing in Kirkwall, you can do the sensible thing and NOT put the mage's circle in the magical equivalent of a toxic waste dump.

Neither Warden's Peak, nor Blackmarsh is ever fully repaired.....

Fully? Perhaps not, but the Veil was stlil strengthened and repaired, and that's what counts. Avernus continues his research in the tower and there are no more demons or corpses plaguing the Keep. If there were, you can bet your ass that Levi, Mikhael, and their family would be dead. He even allows his kids inside the Keep, so long as they stay away from Avernus.

The Blackmarsh's Veil was repaired. Maybe not as strong as other places, but it was still repaired. People ended up going back there to live, and the only place that seemed to still be plagued by demons and a thin Veil was the Baroness' mansion herself.

Had Kirkwall's Templars and Chantry been smart, they would've either tried to repair the thin Veil or move all of the mages to another, more friendly and less Hellmouth place.

Those veil tears were fixed by our awesome main characters.  There is nothing to prove that tears can be fixed on their own in the lore that I can remember.   Perhaps Kinloch Hold?  I don't remember the Templars talking about Viel Tears there.  People know about the tears and for hundreds of years, made no effort to fix them.  Doesn't that tell you something?  (Everyone is incompetant in Bioware games.)

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:39 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

It's very hard to change a religion even in a small way. But to change it against something they have been preaching against for almost a thousand years almost sounds impossible.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Follow me on twitter
The religion does not have to be destroyed, it can be reformed. The Chantry as a political institution, cannot remain the way it is however, imo. It either reforms on its own, something I doubt will ever happen due to both narrowmindedness and not wanting to lose power. Or it is cast aside, and either eliminated entirely or reduced to a spiritual institution only.

So it becomes. . .the Tevinter Imperium's Black Chantry then.

What would make people want (and I am not talking about the Chantry but regular people) to change that drastically.  Because this war definately would not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

It's very hard to change a religion even in a small way. But to change it against something they have been preaching against for almost a thousand years almost sounds impossible.

A religion is never monolithic in both content and followers, and there is no one way to correctly interpret text. It would take time, and a certain measure of top-down initiative, followed by a reciprocation from the bottom. But I think it's feasible. which is not to say easy. 

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
Quentin was a trained mage.  Decimus was a trained mage.  Uldred was a trained mage.  Mages will need policing no matter where they go to protect people from the mages they cannot protect themselves against.  It's why full on freedom is implausible, because it one takes one mage to ruin it to the people that live around them.  This, mind you is talking about the transition from towers to full freedom that some of you people want.

You name a handful of evil mages.  No doubt there have been more.  What the people have been deprived of are the thousands more good examples of mage behavior.  When they only see random apostates being hunted down, or the occasional child who isn't handed over soon enough then it is easy to see why opinions would run towards the worst.  But even in Kirkwall, we see tremendous support in Act 1 for Anders because he is healing folks in Darktown.  If almost all mages were allowed to live among the people there would be good examples to counter the bad.

And hate doesn't die out over time.  See Xbox live/PSN **** talking, see any youtube comments section involving black people.  People keep the same ideas, they just don't say them out loud, they keep them subversive.

It dies down at least.  When hate is fully endorsed by the religion of the times, it is almost universal.  When hate is discouraged by that religion it is driven underground and even if never truly snuffed out, that hate stops being the norm.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

It's very hard to change a religion even in a small way. But to change it against something they have been preaching against for almost a thousand years almost sounds impossible.

A religion is never monolithic in both content and followers, and there is no one way to correctly interpret text. It would take time, and a certain measure of top-down initiative, followed by a reciprocation from the bottom. But I think it's feasible. which is not to say easy. 

You think an over the time change like you dictate will be a result of this war given the way Bioware writes?  Or even common sense?

[Follow Me on Twitter]

How do you go against something you believe is the "will of the maker" ? i honestly think most Andraste followers would rather die then change their ways. And they may become just as oppressed as the mages are now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Follow me on twitter
The religion does not have to be destroyed, it can be reformed. The Chantry as a political institution, cannot remain the way it is however, imo. It either reforms on its own, something I doubt will ever happen due to both narrowmindedness and not wanting to lose power. Or it is cast aside, and either eliminated entirely or reduced to a spiritual institution only.

So it becomes. . .the Tevinter Imperium's Black Chantry then.

What would make people want (and I am not talking about the Chantry but regular people) to change that drastically.  Because this war definately would not.

I do not know of the details of the Black Chantry.

Oh I am not supportive of the war personally had I the choice in the matter, and I think Anders was an idiot. But if states decide to change it, they can. People would either accept it, or be forced to until they deal with it. "Enlightment" afterall started by being patronized by leaders, whereas the common folk would have rather had them burned.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:41 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

IanPolaris wrote...


As an addendumt to this, as Robert Heinlein put it in Starship Troopers, Raw Violence has solve more human problems than all other methods combined.

-Polaris

Or as I see it, big body counts have taught mankind more than all the universities in history. It's a rather sad but unavoidable fact of human existance, that pain is sometimes a more effective stimuli to foster change than pleasure is.

Which is why I also don't see the comming and uncontrollable conflict between the mages and templars as entirely a bad thing, in that regard. Thedas has been stagnating on many fronts, and beyond the mage/templar conflict, you have a number of other stagnating entities and rivalries outside of it. There's still Ferelden, Rivain, and Orlais all waiting for the right kick to get something really interesting going there. Then there's the Wardens who dominate the Anderfells, where they are almost the defacto rulers in a supposedly very devout Andrastian nation. And the Wardens have shown that they are willing to do anything, even ****** off the Chantry, to fulfill their goals. We also have the rather loosley regulated Lands of Antiva and Rivain. Antiva, which is controlled by the Crows from the Shadows, might be getting interesting, especially if Zevran, bless him, succeeds in taking over the whole operation.

Anyways, my point being that the mage/templar conflict has the potential to set off alot of other events and conflicts coming to a head, and bring them into open resolution or war. Which, could in the long term end up being more beneficial, especially if Chantry/Orlesian dominance has been hindering the rise of newer, more vibrant powers. Even our relatively peaceful, stable, modern society, with its multitude of ethical philosophies, only exists because alot of people had to die, often gruesomely and for deplorable and insane reasons, along the way to get here. The real physical foundations of civilizations aren't bricks and mortar, but bones and bodies.

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

Quentin was a trained mage.  Decimus was a trained mage.  Uldred was a trained mage. 

The first two were complete morons, and the latter was possessed because he summoned too many demons.

Harid wrote...

Mages will need policing no matter where they go to protect people from the mages they cannot protect themselves against.  It's why full on freedom is implausible, because it one takes one mage to ruin it to the people that live around them.  This, mind you is talking about the transition from towers to full freedom that some of you people want.  Change never occurs that quickly especially with this war, people aren't granting them freedom, and people will not like their leaders esposing that change on them. 

That doesn't mean that subjugating mages under the heel of the Chantry controlled Circles is the solution. The problems that can arise from criminals absuing magic is why people argue for regulation - for law enforcement.

Harid wrote...

You can quote the Avvar or the Riviani, but we don't know how those people deal with abominations,  

Gaider said (when he addressed they don't controlled mages) that they deal with abominations - which is no different than what Merrill says about what the clan does with possessed elven mages.

Harid wrote...

We have yet to see it first hand, and we have yet to see if it's really any better of a situation for the people who live in those areas.  We don't even know the extent of the power those mages are allowed to have, so they cannot be quoted as being better until we actually get to go to those areas, and I would bet we will never see Rivain out of stepping into it for a quest in the future.

If mages aren't controlled and abominations have been dealt with, but the people don't automatically hate mages for having magic or because a few fall to possession, then I see it as an issue that results from the dogma of the Chantry of Andraste, since that seems to be the key difference between these societies and the Andrastian nations.

Harid wrote...

And hate doesn't die out over time.  See Xbox live/PSN **** talking, see any youtube comments section involving black people.  People keep the same ideas, they just don't say them out loud, they keep them subversive.

Societies change. It's the reason you don't see human beings in chains and sold as slaves anymore in the United States. It's the reason why the Tevinter Imperium doesn't control all of Thedas anymore.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
You think an over the time change like you dictate will be a result of this war given the way Bioware writes?  Or even common sense?

If states intervene yes. Wars have created avenues for structural change.
Would Bioware write something like that? No, more likely it's going to be a big bad evil that is going to reunite everyone.

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

How do you go against
something you believe is the "will of the maker" ? i honestly think most
Andraste followers would rather die then change their ways. And they
may become just as oppressed as the mages are now.

Because most people think with their stomachs, not their faith.

How did Attaturk fundamentally alter Turkey?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[Wulfram]

"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters."
So said the first Divine. If the Chantry payed a bit more attention to that, we'd be in a much better position

Of course, blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry doesn't help that happen.

[GavrielKay]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

How do you go against something you believe is the "will of the maker" ? i honestly think most Andraste followers would rather die then change their ways. And they may become just as oppressed as the mages are now.

Religions and people devoted to them sometimes need to be dragged kicking and screaming into a better reality.