1253 Antworten in diesem Thema

[esper]

GavrielKay wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just want to point out the double standard.

Evil and insane Templar = ALL TEMPLAR ARE EVIL AND INSANE
Evil and insane Mages = The game is anti-mage and shows the mages in an unrealistic light!

And if the game had asked the player to choose between exterminating all the Templars OR all the mages based on the few evil ones of each that we see, then you'd have a point.

Actually not even then, because most templars chooses to be Templars whereas mages are born with magic and can't choose not to be magical.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Never mind, no point in arguing. Mages are innocent victims who deserve sunshine and flowers.

I'd settle for mages not being depicted as insane and stupid.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Never mind, no point in arguing. Mages are innocent victims who deserve sunshine and flowers.

I'd settle for mages not being depicted as insane and stupid.

As much as I dislike templars I would like it if they grew a brain as well.

[thats1evildude]

Whoops posted by mistake

Bearbeitet von thats1evildude, 29 August 2011 - 06:34 .

[GavrielKay]

esper wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just want to point out the double standard.

Evil and insane Templar = ALL TEMPLAR ARE EVIL AND INSANE
Evil and insane Mages = The game is anti-mage and shows the mages in an unrealistic light!

And if the game had asked the player to choose between exterminating all the Templars OR all the mages based on the few evil ones of each that we see, then you'd have a point.

Actually not even then, because most templars chooses to be Templars whereas mages are born with magic and can't choose not to be magical.

OK, so then Dave would have been closer to having a point

Anyway, having a few bad jailors doesn't go too much against reality.  There are tons of stories of people in positions of power who abuse that power in horrible ways.  Just today I read about the almost unbelievable torture that one of Ghadafi's daughters in law inflicted on her nanny.  The devs don't have to build up much story around things that we all know happen every day.

Now, obviously, there aren't any real life stories of mages who go crazy all the time - but I do think it is less of human nature for people to go on rampages just because they possess some ability that other folks don't.  There aren't a zillion stories about extreme martial artists going crazy and attacking everyone in sight just because.  So if you're going to present that to the player, some extra story around it would be nice.  Especially since DAO didn't seem to revolve around every apostate being a serial killer as well.

That's why it feels more strange to see blood mage gangs on the street than it does to hear about violent Templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Perhaps the depiction of insane and mentally unstable mages, is used to simply show the pressure the mages' minds are always under.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd settle for mages not being depicted as insane and stupid.

As I said on Page 1, there are good reasons for at least some of those mages being "insane and stupid," as you would put it.

thats1evildude wrote...

With the exception of Orsino and Quentin, the majority of examples you used are minor antagonists. They don't get any characterization beyond "insane and evil" because they don't need it. Most of the time, these characters only serve to introduce Hawke to more plot-relevant NPCs; for example, Tarohne's plot brings Hawke into contact with Knight-Commander Cullen.

From a design perspective, mages, particularly blood mages, are often used as minor villains because they function well as enemies. Their abilities are well-suited to taking on PC parties. For instance, you might question how a templar or a rogue could raise the dead to fight with him, but when Decimus does it, you don't bat an eye. There's a reason why Evil Sorceror is such a prevalent trope in fiction.

And in terms of the whole templar vs. mage dilemma, every major conflict throughout history has always attracted its fair share of extremists. You can complain that some of the mages in DA2 are "insane and evil," but really, it would be more unrealistic if there weren't some of those people on the "pro mage" side.

The Loghains and Eamons are in this game, but you're not paying attention to them . They've been replaced by multi-layered characters like Ser Thrask, Feynriel, the Arishok and Viscount Dumar. (And yes, Orsino, though I'm hesitant to mention him as I don't want to get into a debate over his characterization.)

Finally, there were plenty of insane and evil warriors and rogues in this game. I don't hear you arguing about how Ginnis of the Winters or Ser Karras could be summed up as "big jerks," but that's about as much characterization as they got. And that's as much as they needed. Flat characters are not inherently bad when they're mostly irrelevant to the larger plot.

Bearbeitet von thats1evildude, 29 August 2011 - 06:42 .

[whykikyouwhy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Never mind, no point in arguing. Mages are innocent victims who deserve sunshine and flowers.

I'd settle for mages not being depicted as insane and stupid.

I'm just curious...and I do mean this truly...is there any character that you feel was depicted in a positive light, or as intelligent? Because you have, in other threads, made some similar assertions regarding Hawke. So I'm wondering who is your example of a character done right in DA2.

Because I personally didn't see all mages as insane and/or stupid.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

esper wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just want to point out the double standard.

Evil and insane Templar = ALL TEMPLAR ARE EVIL AND INSANE
Evil and insane Mages = The game is anti-mage and shows the mages in an unrealistic light!

And if the game had asked the player to choose between exterminating all the Templars OR all the mages based on the few evil ones of each that we see, then you'd have a point.

Actually not even then, because most templars chooses to be Templars whereas mages are born with magic and can't choose not to be magical.

Not really. The point was about the character of the majority of templars or mages. Why mages are mages or templars are templars or what choices the player is given in regards to them  is beside the point.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Corypheus could affect normal people? Then why did the Carta corrupt themselves with the taint to listen to him?

*facepalm*

What makes you think a normal person would corrupt themselves with the taint of their own volition?

They developed into a cult following... the Wardens guiled them into it.

I don't remember seeing anything about the Wardens causing the Carta to taint themselves being stated anywhere in Legacy.


Granted I've only played Legacy once since I'm getting all my DAO playthroughs squared away.

[metamorphyse]

flemeth and morrigan are definitely portrayed as smart intelligent strong women

[esper]

GavrielKay wrote...

esper wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just want to point out the double standard.

Evil and insane Templar = ALL TEMPLAR ARE EVIL AND INSANE
Evil and insane Mages = The game is anti-mage and shows the mages in an unrealistic light!

And if the game had asked the player to choose between exterminating all the Templars OR all the mages based on the few evil ones of each that we see, then you'd have a point.

Actually not even then, because most templars chooses to be Templars whereas mages are born with magic and can't choose not to be magical.

OK, so then Dave would have been closer to having a point

Anyway, having a few bad jailors doesn't go too much against reality.  There are tons of stories of people in positions of power who abuse that power in horrible ways.  Just today I read about the almost unbelievable torture that one of Ghadafi's daughters in law inflicted on her nanny.  The devs don't have to build up much story around things that we all know happen every day.

Now, obviously, there aren't any real life stories of mages who go crazy all the time - but I do think it is less of human nature for people to go on rampages just because they possess some ability that other folks don't.  There aren't a zillion stories about extreme martial artists going crazy and attacking everyone in sight just because.  So if you're going to present that to the player, some extra story around it would be nice.  Especially since DAO didn't seem to revolve around every apostate being a serial killer as well.

That's why it feels more strange to see blood mage gangs on the street than it does to hear about violent Templars.

For the first point. The individual templars might not be evil. I can certainly think of some good among them, but that doesn't change the fact that they chose to be part of a oppressing group.

I actually didn't mind the blood mage gang in act three because criminal mages surely exits. What I mind is Decimuses who attack no matter what and didn't even back down when my Hawke used blood magic to counter his corpses - Honestely how much more proof that I wasn't a templar did he need? We could have avoided the whole Grace thing if Decimus wasn't an idiot.

[Xilizhra]

I don't remember seeing anything about the Wardens causing the Carta to taint themselves being stated anywhere in Legacy.

Did you side with Larius? It was Janeka's idea.

[KnightofPhoenix]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I'm just curious...and I do mean this truly...is there any character that you feel was depicted in a positive light, or as intelligent? Because you have, in other threads, made some similar assertions regarding Hawke. So I'm wondering who is your example of a character done right in DA2.

Because I personally didn't see all mages as insane and/or stupid.

I can only speak for myself. I find no NPC compelling, that reasonable and competent. I found all NPCs in DA2 idiotic, incompetent, insane and / or uninteresting or just under-developped. Not a single one is memorable to me.

I am not even exagerrating.

As for companions, I was only moved by 3, the rest I was utterly indifferent to.

[whykikyouwhy]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I can only speak for myself. I find no NPC compelling, that reasonable and competent. I found all NPCs in DA2 idiotic, incompetent, insane and / or uninteresting or just under-developped. Not a single one is memorable to me.

I am not even exagerrating.

As for companions, I was only moved by 3, the rest I was utterly indifferent to.

Really? All NPCs? Even the Talkative Man?

[thats1evildude]

esper wrote...

For the first point. The individual templars might not be evil. I can certainly think of some good among them, but that doesn't change the fact that they chose to be part of a oppressing group.

I don't believe that the majority of templars view themselves as "oppressors." I think they view their order as necessary: to protect the public from abominations and blood mages and to safeguard mages from demons and the persecution of the larger populace.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Really? All NPCs? Even the Talkative Man? 

Even XENON THE ANTIQUARIAN?!

Bearbeitet von thats1evildude, 29 August 2011 - 06:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Really? All NPCs? Even the Talkative Man?

Actually I like him! And now that I think about it, I like Gamlen, though he was not as developped as I would have liked.

But other than those, yes I am afraid all npcs.

[GavrielKay]

thats1evildude wrote...

I don't believe that the majority of templars view themselves as "oppressors." I think they view their order as necessary: to protect the public from abominations and blood mages and to safeguard mages from demons and the persecution of the larger populace.

This larger populace being the ones that the Chantry itself preaches to about mages being dangerous.  Sounds like a protection racket to me.

Bearbeitet von GavrielKay, 29 August 2011 - 06:58 .

[Jestina]

I'm tired of mages...
A)Being in the circle.
B)If not in the circle, they are a blood mage.

One thing I really hated that they did to Merrill...turning her into a blood mage.

[thats1evildude]

GavrielKay wrote...

This larger populace being the ones that the Chantry itself preaches to about mages being dangerous.  Sounds like a protection racket to me.

No, I mean regular people.

The population of Thedas doesn't need the Chantry to remind them that mages are dangerous. They know that every mage commands terrifying powers. They know that every untrained mage is a potential abomination capable of massacring dozens, if not hundreds of people.

I'm saying that without the templars, the people of Thedas would probably have instituted a general "BURN THE  WITCH!" policy regarding mages a long time ago. And they wouldn't have been entirely wrong in doing so.

Bearbeitet von thats1evildude, 29 August 2011 - 07:09 .

[esper]

thats1evildude wrote...

esper wrote...

For the first point. The individual templars might not be evil. I can certainly think of some good among them, but that doesn't change the fact that they chose to be part of a oppressing group.

I don't believe that the majority of templars view themselves as "oppressors." I think they view their order as necessary: to protect the public from abominations and blood mages and to safeguard mages from demons and the persecution of the larger populace.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Really? All NPCs? Even the Talkative Man? 

Even XENON THE ANTIQUARIAN?!

It doesn't matter if they view themself as such - As I said, Trask and Kerran (Spelling?) seemed like good people that didn't get off on having power. They still actively chose to join a military order which is oppressive. They made a choice and chose a job which might get them killed. The mages did not chose to be born with their powers.

As for npc.... Sandal. It wouldn't be dragon age without him.  

[The dead fish]

Good, everybody is here ? The pro-active lobby mage to put pressure on Bioware who is certainly anti-mage can be launched. Our views must be theirs. While I do agree with the op, what I read in this thread make me feel otherwise.

I do hope the writers don't lose the sight and the meaning of what they want to show us rather than to succumb to your demands to publish the Mages as little babies Jesus.

Bearbeitet von Sylvianus, 29 August 2011 - 09:18 .

[Xilizhra]

No, only Anders needs to be Jesus. Or Andraste.

[alex90c]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I'm just curious...and I do mean this truly...is there any character that you feel was depicted in a positive light, or as intelligent? Because you have, in other threads, made some similar assertions regarding Hawke. So I'm wondering who is your example of a character done right in DA2.

Because I personally didn't see all mages as insane and/or stupid.

I can only speak for myself. I find no NPC compelling, that reasonable and competent. I found all NPCs in DA2 idiotic, incompetent, insane and / or uninteresting or just under-developped. Not a single one is memorable to me.

I am not even exagerrating.

As for companions, I was only moved by 3, the rest I was utterly indifferent to.

I wanted Gamlen to move in to the estate with me. But no, I had to put up with that whiny spoiled b!tch Leandra.

[The dead fish]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, only Anders needs to be Jesus. Or Andraste.

Well, I prefer Andraste, matter of taste. :innocent:

Bearbeitet von Sylvianus, 29 August 2011 - 09:44 .