1253 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Killing someone without cause is immoral.  I HOPE everyone agrees that this is a moral fact.  A moral fact is no different than any other kind of fact.

As presented, there are mages in the circle who don't want their quarters searched.  That's it.  That's the whole list of known crimes for the circle mages.  Orsino refuses to let Meredith search the entire Gallows so she figures they must be guilty.

Oh nevermind that they are planning to rebel against their Knight-Commander and is fleeing the Circle left and right. Those aren't crimes.... Just for planning against their superior could be enough to warrant a purge...

Technically, all we know is that First Enchanter Orsino thought Meredith was overstepping her bounds, and was heading to the Grand Cleric to resolve the issue. As for rebelling against the Knight-Commander, are you talking about Ser Thrask gathering templars and mages to remove a dictator from power, who are working side by side under the leadership of a templar no less?

Are you asking becasue you are in doubt? Then let me make it perfectly clear for you. Yes. That one exactly.

Yes, how dare they try to remove Meredith and her dictator ways from power! The nerve!

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
Quentin was a trained mage.  Decimus was a trained mage.  Uldred was a trained mage.  Mages will need policing no matter where they go to protect people from the mages they cannot protect themselves against.  It's why full on freedom is implausible, because it one takes one mage to ruin it to the people that live around them.  This, mind you is talking about the transition from towers to full freedom that some of you people want.

You name a handful of evil mages.  No doubt there have been more.  What the people have been deprived of are the thousands more good examples of mage behavior.  When they only see random apostates being hunted down, or the occasional child who isn't handed over soon enough then it is easy to see why opinions would run towards the worst.  But even in Kirkwall, we see tremendous support in Act 1 for Anders because he is healing folks in Darktown.  If almost all mages were allowed to live among the people there would be good examples to counter the bad.

And hate doesn't die out over time.  See Xbox live/PSN **** talking, see any youtube comments section involving black people.  People keep the same ideas, they just don't say them out loud, they keep them subversive.

It dies down at least.  When hate is fully endorsed by the religion of the times, it is almost universal.  When hate is discouraged by that religion it is driven underground and even if never truly snuffed out, that hate stops being the norm.

We have seen less than a handful of these good mages.  Some of you even call some of them, like Wynne, sell outs.  The Good mages don't matter, because the bad mages will ruin full freedom for good mages (going under the train of thought that they are, post this conflict, given some kind of full freedom.)  Not every mage will want to heal people in a town.  Some, like Uldred will want to be left alone.  Some like Quentin, will kill people to test their magic.  Without Templars, who protects the people from situations like that when the common person generally lacks the power to kill mages?  We know, through the game, of mages(some) that want a Tevinter Imperium outside the Imperium.  How can you test mages for having those thoughts?  You can't.

These things you talk about are things mages should have already been doing, or lobbying to do in the first place.  We have no evidence of them wanting to.


As for your second point that takes hundreds of years.  The Mage Templar conflict is not going to last that long, and why would a minority revolution lead to a change in those long held "magist" beliefs?

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:59 .

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


As an addendumt to this, as Robert Heinlein put it in Starship Troopers, Raw Violence has solve more human problems than all other methods combined.

-Polaris

Or as I see it, big body counts have taught mankind more than all the universities in history. It's a rather sad but unavoidable fact of human existance, that pain is sometimes a more effective stimuli to foster change than pleasure is.

Which is why I also don't see the comming and uncontrollable conflict between the mages and templars as entirely a bad thing, in that regard. Thedas has been stagnating on many fronts, and beyond the mage/templar conflict, you have a number of other stagnating entities and rivalries outside of it. There's still Ferelden, Rivain, and Orlais all waiting for the right kick to get something really interesting going there. Then there's the Wardens who dominate the Anderfells, where they are almost the defacto rulers in a supposedly very devout Andrastian nation. And the Wardens have shown that they are willing to do anything, even ****** off the Chantry, to fulfill their goals. We also have the rather loosley regulated Lands of Antiva and Rivain. Antiva, which is controlled by the Crows from the Shadows, might be getting interesting, especially if Zevran, bless him, succeeds in taking over the whole operation.

Anyways, my point being that the mage/templar conflict has the potential to set off alot of other events and conflicts coming to a head, and bring them into open resolution or war. Which, could in the long term end up being more beneficial, especially if Chantry/Orlesian dominance has been hindering the rise of newer, more vibrant powers. Even our relatively peaceful, stable, modern society, with its multitude of ethical philosophies, only exists because alot of people had to die, often gruesomely and for deplorable and insane reasons, along the way to get here. The real physical foundations of civilizations aren't bricks and mortar, but bones and bodies.

Oh yes, there is going to be alot of power shift just not the mage and templars. And it'll be interesting to see just what happens.

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

Those veil tears were fixed by our awesome main characters.  There is nothing to prove that tears can be fixed on their own in the lore that I can remember.   Perhaps Kinloch Hold?  I don't remember the Templars talking about Viel Tears there.  People know about the tears and for hundreds of years, made no effort to fix them.  Doesn't that tell you something?  (Everyone is incompetant in Bioware games.)

Avernus fixed tears in the veil.

[Harid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Quentin was a trained mage.  Decimus was a trained mage.  Uldred was a trained mage. 

The first two were complete morons, and the latter was possessed because he summoned too many demons.

Harid wrote...

Mages will need policing no matter where they go to protect people from the mages they cannot protect themselves against.  It's why full on freedom is implausible, because it one takes one mage to ruin it to the people that live around them.  This, mind you is talking about the transition from towers to full freedom that some of you people want.  Change never occurs that quickly especially with this war, people aren't granting them freedom, and people will not like their leaders esposing that change on them. 

That doesn't mean that subjugating mages under the heel of the Chantry controlled Circles is the solution. The problems that can arise from criminals absuing magic is why people argue for regulation - for law enforcement.

Harid wrote...

You can quote the Avvar or the Riviani, but we don't know how those people deal with abominations,  

Gaider said (when he addressed they don't controlled mages) that they deal with abominations - which is no different than what Merrill says about what the clan does with possessed elven mages.

Harid wrote...

We have yet to see it first hand, and we have yet to see if it's really any better of a situation for the people who live in those areas.  We don't even know the extent of the power those mages are allowed to have, so they cannot be quoted as being better until we actually get to go to those areas, and I would bet we will never see Rivain out of stepping into it for a quest in the future.

If mages aren't controlled and abominations have been dealt with, but the people don't automatically hate mages for having magic or because a few fall to possession, then I see it as an issue that results from the dogma of the Chantry of Andraste, since that seems to be the key difference between these societies and the Andrastian nations.

Harid wrote...

And hate doesn't die out over time.  See Xbox live/PSN **** talking, see any youtube comments section involving black people.  People keep the same ideas, they just don't say them out loud, they keep them subversive.

Societies change. It's the reason you don't see human beings in chains and sold as slaves anymore in the United States. It's the reason why the Tevinter Imperium doesn't control all of Thedas anymore.

People being complete morons doesn't disprove my point.  I would argue that Quentin could not be that stupid, as he killed with impunity for 5 years without being caught by law enforcement.  Law enforcement isn't good enough for the power that mages can control.

I never made your second point, and have stated the complete opposite, so I am not touching that one.

And we don't know what those people believe.  We haven't been to Rivain.  The only thing we do know is that seers are a large part of their culture, and people will do things they hate to uphold their culture.  We don't know if every abomination is hunted down, we don't know if some abomination is extremely powerful there.  We literally know of the codex only, because Isabela wasn't a walking codex entry.

The fact that you believe slavery no longer exists in the united states is striking to the naievete that is being dealt with on these forums.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

Those veil tears were fixed by our awesome main characters.  There is nothing to prove that tears can be fixed on their own in the lore that I can remember.   Perhaps Kinloch Hold?  I don't remember the Templars talking about Viel Tears there.  People know about the tears and for hundreds of years, made no effort to fix them.  Doesn't that tell you something?  (Everyone is incompetant in Bioware games.)

Avernus fixed tears in the veil.

Avernus was a 300 year old powerful mage, and only fixed the tears so someone could if you killed the demon.

I ask again.  If those tears have been known for hundreds of years, and no one fixed them, doesn't that tell you that it's a bit harder than it has been shown through our awesome warden?  What about all of the other known tears in the veil that haven't been fixed, like Sundermount.  Why aren't they, if it's so bloody easy?

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:57 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
We haven't seen these good mages.

Depends on what you consider good.  Aneirin wasn't hurting anyone.  Wynn is good, if preachy.  Morrigan isn't on a human killing rampage.  Bethany was good.  Malcolm.  The First from the Dalish clan in Origins whose name I forget.  Ella?  There are lots of mages that we know of who appear to be in complete control of their power and not a danger to anyone around them.

The Good mages don't matter, because the bad mages will ruin full freedom for good mages (assuming that they are post this conflict given some kind of full freedom.)

By that standard, Dwarves would be universally hated because of the Carta and humans because of the Slavers and so on.  It seems that only for mages is the standard different.  If any mage has ever been bad, then we must protect ourselves against the rest of them because any of them could be bad too.  The fact is anyone from any walk of life can be evil.  That mages can singly do more damage when evil is a fact.  But hordes of Carta dwarves are no laughing matter.  And the families of folks kidnapped and sold into slavery probably don't really care if the slavers were mages or not. 

It is not crazy to want mages considered as individuals.  Capable of great good or evil by their own choice.  A mage who commits a crime is a criminal.  Criminals should be caught and punished.  A mage who breaks no law is not a cimrinal.  Innocents should be given the benefit of the doubt and allowed a fair dose of freedom.

These things you talk about are things mages should have already been doing, or lobbying to do in the first place.  We have no evidence of them wanting to.

We have no evidence that they haven't asked for exactly that a zillion times in the last 1000 years.

As for your second point that takes hundreds of years.  The Mage Templar conflict is not going to last that long, and why would a minority revolution lead to a change in those long held "magist" beliefs?

The revolution itself wouldn't, but the freedoms they might win because of it could.  If it takes hundreds of years, they'd better get started  :happy:

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Harid wrote...


So it becomes. . .the Tevinter Imperium's Black Chantry then.

No, More like the post reformation Church as it dwindled to its modern state. And the Tevinter Chantry is different in that mages have long held power anyway, and the old order, especially in a state as old as Tevinter, is not so easily cast aside in its institutions.

What would make people want (and I am not talking about the Chantry but regular people) to change that drastically.  Because this war definately would not.

There is the issue of nationalism. The Chantry is in every way a very Orlesian institution, and has often been used as a tool of foreign policy and dominance by the orlesian empire. The Fereldens and Nevarrans aren't on really good terms with the Orlesians, and even Loghain and Marric talked once about eliminating the Chantry, but couldn't do so reasonably because Andrastism was so important to fereldens.

However, the Chantry is but one sect, and the dominant sect, of Andrastians in Thedas. Just as Christianity ended up fracturing into numerous sects and denominations during the reformation, the Chantry could end up going this route as well. Ferelden, for example, seems to be more open to heretical ideas that deviate from established dogma. It would not be out of the realm of possibility for a Church of England type break to occur in Ferelden, so to speak. Both Alistair and Anora seem to be alot less supportive of the templars and Chantry, in regards to apostates. Even if the mage boon was never selected in the post-coronation scene. And given that neither Alistair nor Anora hold particularly favorable opinions of the Chantry, or at best, neutral, it seems even more than likely Ferelden seems poised to go that route.

And many secular govornments might see the weakening and failure of the Chantry as an opportunity to shake off Orlesian dominance.

[Harid]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


So it becomes. . .the Tevinter Imperium's Black Chantry then.

No, More like the post reformation Church as it dwindled to its modern state. And the Tevinter Chantry is different in that mages have long held power anyway, and the old order, especially in a state as old as Tevinter, is not so easily cast aside in its institutions.

What would make people want (and I am not talking about the Chantry but regular people) to change that drastically.  Because this war definately would not.

There is the issue of nationalism. The Chantry is in every way a very Orlesian institution, and has often been used as a tool of foreign policy and dominance by the orlesian empire. The Fereldens and Nevarrans aren't on really good terms with the Orlesians, and even Loghain and Marric talked once about eliminating the Chantry, but couldn't do so reasonably because Andrastism was so important to fereldens.

However, the Chantry is but one sect, and the dominant sect, of Andrastians in Thedas. Just as Christianity ended up fracturing into numerous sects and denominations during the reformation, the Chantry could end up going this route as well. Ferelden, for example, seems to be more open to heretical ideas that deviate from established dogma. It would not be out of the realm of possibility for a Church of England type break to occur in Ferelden, so to speak. Both Alistair and Anora seem to be alot less supportive of the templars and Chantry, in regards to apostates. Even if the mage boon was never selected in the post-coronation scene. And given that neither Alistair nor Anora hold particularly favorable opinions of the Chantry, or at best, neutral, it seems even more than likely Ferelden seems poised to go that route.

And many secular govornments might see the weakening and failure of the Chantry as an opportunity to shake off Orlesian dominance.

People keep saying the Chantry is orlesian, but then ignore that the vast majority of Thedas is happily Andrastian.

It is a disconnect that I cannot understand.

And Fereldan?  The country recovering from a Blight?  That Fereldan?  What would stop every known country from gangstomping them with an Exalted march?  What would stop the people who we have no evidence of wanting what Alistair wants from revolting?  What power would Fereldan really have?

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

We haven't seen these good mages.  Some of you even call some of them, like Wynne, sell outs. 

Wynne does advise that breaking free from the Chantry would cause them to try to murder every Circle mage rather than see them free, if The Warden speaks to her in Amaranthine, which is why she's arguing against the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry. She never denies the Circle is a "prison" or an "oppressive place" when she's speaking with The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden.

As for good mages, besides The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden, theres: Aneirin the Healer, Lanaya, First Enchanter Irving can be argued to be a good mage, Connor grows up to study in Tevinter if spared, the blood mage in the Circle Tower will devote her life towards ending the darkspawn if given the chance by a blood mage Warden, and there were Circle mages that we could speak to at the Circle Tower who seemed to be good people.

Harid wrote...

The Good mages don't matter, because the bad mages will ruin full freedom for good mages (assuming that they are post this conflict given some kind of full freedom.) 

That doesn't seem to have happened in societies where mages are actually free. Even the morally bankrupt town of Haven, which seems to have existed for roughly 900 years (given the Urn of Sacred Ashes), has mages living alongside non-mages.

Harid wrote...

Not every mage will want to heal people in a town.  Some, like Uldred will want to be left alone. 

Uldred and his supporters wanted freedom from the Chantry and the templars. The fact that the Circles of Magi all rose up and emancipated themselves from nearly a thousand years of subjugation tells me that enough mages wanted it to lead to the freedom of the mages from the Chantry and its templars.

Harid wrote...

Some like Quentin, will kill people to test their magic. 

Quentin was insane. It doesn't take magic for an insane person to murder people. And a mage Hawke can defeat Quentin, as The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden can deal with Pride Demon Uldred and the abominations that took over the Circle Tower. The Grey Wardens have mages who are efficient against the darkspawn, and Avernus can secure the demons in Warden's Keep from escaping for centuries. A reformed Velanna can protect an entire village from the darkspawn. Mages can clearly protect people using their magical abilities.

Harid wrote...

Without Templars, who protects the people from situations like that when the common person generally lacks the power to kill mages?  

Who protected the people from the Knight-Commander turned dictator? Why couldn't a law enforcement of mages and non-mages protect the people?

Harid wrote...

We know, through the game of mages that want a Tevinter Imperium outside the Imperium.  How can you test mages for having those thoughts?  You can't.

There are societies with free mages that don't try to emulate the Tevinter Imperium.

Harid wrote...

These things you talk about are things mages should have already been doing, or lobbying to do in the first place. We have no evidence of them wanting to.

Mages have been living under the heel of the templars for nearly a thousand years in the Andrastian nations. Mages are either in the Circles of Magi, living as apostates, or they became Grey Wardens.

Harid wrote...

As for your second point that takes hundreds of years.  The Mage Templar conflict is not going to last that long, and why would a minority revolution lead to a change in those long held "magist" beliefs?

If the Chantry or the templars were so powerful, how did every single Circle of Magi manage to become free? I don't see any reason to dismiss the possible success of the mages to maintain their independence, especially if they have the right leadership.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
We haven't seen these good mages.

Depends on what you consider good.  Aneirin wasn't hurting anyone.  Wynn is good, if preachy.  Morrigan isn't on a human killing rampage.  Bethany was good.  Malcolm.  The First from the Dalish clan in Origins whose name I forget.  Ella?  There are lots of mages that we know of who appear to be in complete control of their power and not a danger to anyone around them.

The Good mages don't matter, because the bad mages will ruin full freedom for good mages (assuming that they are post this conflict given some kind of full freedom.)

By that standard, Dwarves would be universally hated because of the Carta and humans because of the Slavers and so on.  It seems that only for mages is the standard different.  If any mage has ever been bad, then we must protect ourselves against the rest of them because any of them could be bad too.  The fact is anyone from any walk of life can be evil.  That mages can singly do more damage when evil is a fact.  But hordes of Carta dwarves are no laughing matter.  And the families of folks kidnapped and sold into slavery probably don't really care if the slavers were mages or not. 

It is not crazy to want mages considered as individuals.  Capable of great good or evil by their own choice.  A mage who commits a crime is a criminal.  Criminals should be caught and punished.  A mage who breaks no law is not a cimrinal.  Innocents should be given the benefit of the doubt and allowed a fair dose of freedom.

These things you talk about are things mages should have already been doing, or lobbying to do in the first place.  We have no evidence of them wanting to.

We have no evidence that they haven't asked for exactly that a zillion times in the last 1000 years.

As for your second point that takes hundreds of years.  The Mage Templar conflict is not going to last that long, and why would a minority revolution lead to a change in those long held "magist" beliefs?

The revolution itself wouldn't, but the freedoms they might win because of it could.  If it takes hundreds of years, they'd better get started  :happy:

First point was edited.  You beat the edit, sorry.  And don't count the Dalish, please, you insult my intelligence and yours, the affairs of the Dalish have nothing to do with Andrastian nations.

To your second point, I was arguing off of the point of going from the Circle system as we know it to full mage freedom overnight.  People who do not support this choice will have to deal with the consequences, and those people, without Templars to protect them will be very reticent about having mages dumped on thier front porch, and all it takes is one bad mage to ruin a shakey situation; you would go from mages rebelling to everyone rebelling which is not any kind of peace.

We have no evidence either way, so using that point (mages should be in town healing people)is pointless.  Which was my point.  Things like that would have helped to paint mages better overall, but mages did not make the effort to change public opinion.

And people (here) could not deal with hundreds of years getting in their way of shattering the chantry, despite the people being happily andrastian, the war only proving the Chantry correct, and the war not making any sense if you supported the Templars, among other issues.

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

Those veil tears were fixed by our awesome main characters.  There is nothing to prove that tears can be fixed on their own in the lore that I can remember.   Perhaps Kinloch Hold?  I don't remember the Templars talking about Viel Tears there.  People know about the tears and for hundreds of years, made no effort to fix them.  Doesn't that tell you something?  (Everyone is incompetant in Bioware games.)

Avernus fixed tears in the veil.

Avernus was a 300 year old powerful mage, and only fixed the tears so someone could if you killed the demon.

I ask again.  If those tears have been known for hundreds of years, and no one fixed them, doesn't that tell you that it's a bit harder than it has been shown through our awesome warden?  What about all of the other known tears in the veil that haven't been fixed, like Sundermount.  Why aren't they, if it's so bloody easy?

Avernus couldn't fix the tears immediately because he was the only person there and he had a ****load of demons trying to kill him. Since he couldn't fight the demons and fix the Tears, he continued his research into the taint in the hopes that it could help him fight the demons. When the Warden comes in he slaughters every demon in sight, which gives Avernus the relief he needed to fix his mistake, so long as the Warden protects him from the other demons that come through.

Avernus and Sophia aren't party members, and thus fall outside the jurisdiction of "only our awesome party mended the Veil because they're awesome". That Levi and his family haven't been attacked by any more demons and undead should be enough to say that the Veil can be mended, if someone takes action against it.

There are only two ways to mend the veil: Have a spirit of the Fade do it or have a mage do it. In both cases, the fixer has an affinity to the Fade.

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

People being complete morons doesn't disprove my point. I would argue that Quentin could not be that stupid, as he killed with impunity for 5 years without being caught by law enforcement.

Because no one was capable of finding a wooden hatch in three years. It's the same level of stupidity that we see when Hawke warns Cullen about Anders' plot against the Chantry, with Anders standing right next to Hawke as he's revealing this information.

Harid wrote...

Law enforcement isn't good enough for the power that mages can control.

Not as it currently stands, but that can change. Authority over mages shouldn't be given to a religious military that thinks it has "divine authority" over mages and views mages as "cursed."

Harid wrote...

And we don't know what those people believe. We haven't been to Rivain.

Gaider addressed what the people of Rivain believe at the old board, and his information was posted at the unofficial Dragon Age Wiki (although, for some reason, they never cited his post as the source of the information).

Harid wrote...

The only thing we do know is that seers are a large part of their culture, and people will do things they hate to uphold their culture. We don't know if every abomination is hunted down, we don't know if some abomination is extremely powerful there. We literally know of the codex only, because Isabela wasn't a walking codex entry.

Gaider addressed the abominations are hunted down when they arise among the Chasind and in Rivain, and Merrill says the same thing about possessed elven mages.

Harid wrote...

The fact that you believe slavery no longer exists in the united states is striking to the naievete that is being dealt with on these forums.

I'm talking about legal slavery, out in the open for all to see.

[Harid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Harid wrote...

We haven't seen these good mages.  Some of you even call some of them, like Wynne, sell outs. 

Wynne does advise that breaking free from the Chantry would cause them to try to murder every Circle mage rather than see them free, if The Warden speaks to her in Amaranthine, which is why she's arguing against the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry. She never denies the Circle is a "prison" or an "oppressive place" when she's speaking with The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden.

As for good mages, besides The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden, theres: Aneirin the Healer, Lanaya, First Enchanter Irving can be argued to be a good mage, Connor grows up to study in Tevinter if spared, the blood mage in the Circle Tower will devote her life towards ending the darkspawn if given the chance by a blood mage Warden, and there were Circle mages that we could speak to at the Circle Tower who seemed to be good people.

Harid wrote...

The Good mages don't matter, because the bad mages will ruin full freedom for good mages (assuming that they are post this conflict given some kind of full freedom.) 

That doesn't seem to have happened in societies where mages are actually free. Even the morally bankrupt town of Haven, which seems to have existed for roughly 900 years (given the Urn of Sacred Ashes), has mages living alongside non-mages.

Harid wrote...

Not every mage will want to heal people in a town.  Some, like Uldred will want to be left alone. 

Uldred and his supporters wanted freedom from the Chantry and the templars. The fact that the Circles of Magi all rose up and emancipated themselves from nearly a thousand years of subjugation tells me that enough mages wanted it to lead to the freedom of the mages from the Chantry and its templars.

Harid wrote...

Some like Quentin, will kill people to test their magic. 

Quentin was insane. It doesn't take magic for an insane person to murder people. And a mage Hawke can defeat Quentin, as The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden can deal with Pride Demon Uldred and the abominations that took over the Circle Tower. The Grey Wardens have mages who are efficient against the darkspawn, and Avernus can secure the demons in Warden's Keep from escaping for centuries. A reformed Velanna can protect an entire village from the darkspawn. Mages can clearly protect people using their magical abilities.

Harid wrote...

Without Templars, who protects the people from situations like that when the common person generally lacks the power to kill mages?  

Who protected the people from the Knight-Commander turned dictator? Why couldn't a law enforcement of mages and non-mages protect the people?

Harid wrote...

We know, through the game of mages that want a Tevinter Imperium outside the Imperium.  How can you test mages for having those thoughts?  You can't.

There are societies with free mages that don't try to emulate the Tevinter Imperium.

Harid wrote...

These things you talk about are things mages should have already been doing, or lobbying to do in the first place. We have no evidence of them wanting to.

Mages have been living under the heel of the templars for nearly a thousand years in the Andrastian nations. Mages are either in the Circles of Magi, living as apostates, or they became Grey Wardens.

Harid wrote...

As for your second point that takes hundreds of years.  The Mage Templar conflict is not going to last that long, and why would a minority revolution lead to a change in those long held "magist" beliefs?

If the Chantry or the templars were so powerful, how did every single Circle of Magi manage to become free? I don't see any reason to dismiss the possible success of the mages to maintain their independence, especially if they have the right leadership.

I am talking about people going from a position where mages are locked up in a Circle, to full on freedom, and the ideas that those people will have and will have to deal with.  Try to keep up.  Haven is pretty much lil'Imperium.  Rivain has always had seers.  There is no example like the example you guys are making in Thedas.

You beat my edit.  But those good mages do not change the opinions of the people around them.  And the Dalish, again, have no impact on Andrastian nations, so stop using them as an example.  Secondly, main characters don't count, my Warden was a Rogue, what the Warden does is up to the player, so the Warden (and Hawke) cannot be used as good examples of good mages.

As for your last point, bad Bioware writing?  I can't argue against that.  But it's what these things generally devolve into.  Well. . .it happened anyway, right, so like, deal with it!  I don't care that every circle revolted despite the logistics of that occuring make little sense, why they didn't try it before, because apparently every other anullment has been just, or something, how did they all revolt despite circles cannot communicate with one another, why the Chantry didn't lock down all circles once Kirkwall happened,(bububu the templars revolted for some reason) and all of the other problems that come from Dragon Age 2 generally being hack writing.

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...

Generally speaking in Bioware games, everyone is incompetent and stupid besides your main character.

This was the first time we've had a main character as incompetent and stupid as those that surrounded them, though.

Haha.

In a way, DA2 was Bioware's most reasonable game yet. The PC was just another average person!

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

Those veil tears were fixed by our awesome main characters.  There is nothing to prove that tears can be fixed on their own in the lore that I can remember.   Perhaps Kinloch Hold?  I don't remember the Templars talking about Viel Tears there.  People know about the tears and for hundreds of years, made no effort to fix them.  Doesn't that tell you something?  (Everyone is incompetant in Bioware games.)

Avernus fixed tears in the veil.

Avernus was a 300 year old powerful mage, and only fixed the tears so someone could if you killed the demon.

I ask again.  If those tears have been known for hundreds of years, and no one fixed them, doesn't that tell you that it's a bit harder than it has been shown through our awesome warden?  What about all of the other known tears in the veil that haven't been fixed, like Sundermount.  Why aren't they, if it's so bloody easy?

Avernus couldn't fix the tears immediately because he was the only person there and he had a ****load of demons trying to kill him. Since he couldn't fight the demons and fix the Tears, he continued his research into the taint in the hopes that it could help him fight the demons. When the Warden comes in he slaughters every demon in sight, which gives Avernus the relief he needed to fix his mistake, so long as the Warden protects him from the other demons that come through.

Avernus and Sophia aren't party members, and thus fall outside the jurisdiction of "only our awesome party mended the Veil because they're awesome". That Levi and his family haven't been attacked by any more demons and undead should be enough to say that the Veil can be mended, if someone takes action against it.

There are only two ways to mend the veil: Have a spirit of the Fade do it or have a mage do it. In both cases, the fixer has an affinity to the Fade.

Nice to see you dance around answering my question.  Not to mention closing the veil tears in the Blackmarsh aren't done by Justice, they are done by you trying to gain a set of Armor, but I digress.

Again.  I ask again.  If those tears have been known for hundreds of years, and no one fixed them, doesn't that tell you that it's a bit harder than it has been shown through our awesome warden?  What about all of the other known tears in the veil that haven't been fixed, like Sundermount.  Why aren't they, if it's so bloody easy?

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:22 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Harid wrote...


People keep saying the Chantry is orlesian, but then ignore that the vast majority of Thedas is happily Andrastian.

It is a disconnect that I cannot understand.

Perhaps you are the one with the disconnect, then.

The Chantry was formed by an Orlesian Emporor who followed a particular sect of Andrastism. His favored sect was formed into an Organization, the Chantry. Which has always since been an instrument of Orlesian policy. The Chantry does not do this just with armies, but through belief, which is a more powerful weapon than any sword. And because this, the Chantry, this organized sect created by an Orlesian emporer for more political reasons than anything, is one of the biggest reasons orlais holds so much power. The Chantry is holding the monopoly on Andrastism. And if you ever read the Stolen Throne, you will see the Chantry damped alot of resistance by average Fereldens against the occupation by saying that childish idiot Meghren and his moron predecesors ruled because the Maker willed it.

And Fereldan?  The country recovering from a Blight?  That Fereldan?  What would stop every known country from gangstomping them with an Exalted march?  What would stop the people who we have no evidence of wanting what Alistair wants from revolting?  What power would Fereldan really have?

An Exalted March? Well, the Divine could certainly do that. However, given that we already have two other possible exalted marches in the queue, one on Orzammar and one on Kirkwall, the Divine better make up her mind what to do first. because her armies aren't infinite, many have deserted, and she's gonna need alot more than just templars if she's gonna be doing all this exalted marching on everyone. I mean, the logisitics alone would be a nightmare. As Anders would say "Well, good luck with that!"

Not to mention that the Circles within Orlais have revolted like everyone else, the templars there are likely just as rogue as anywhere else, and in the midst of your own heartland, they are running around attacking each other and likely causing alot of collateral damage. How many Orlesian nobles are gonna be happy when their mansions get burned in the crossfire when mages and templars collide. When it starts hitting them personally (which it will likely do) the nobles will start pressuring the empress to step in and regain control of the situation. There's going to be alot less support for exalted marches willy nilly if ones own fortunes are being threatened.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
And don't count the Dalish, please, you insult my intelligence and yours, the affairs of the Dalish have nothing to do with Andrastian nations.

The Dalish count as a society that has survived having free mages, even mage "rulers" without winding up univesally hating them because on occasion one will inevitably go bad.  That is all I meant to put out there.

To your second point, I was arguing off of the point of going from the Circle system as we know it to full mage freedom overnight.  People who do not support this choice will have to deal with the consequences, and those people, without Templars to protect them will be very reticent about having mages dumped on thier front porch, and all it takes is one bad mage to ruin a shakey situation; you would go from mages rebelling to everyone rebelling which is not any kind of peace.

You seem to have decided that I think the way they wrote it is the best way to do it.  I don't.  I do believe mages should have more freedom than they do.  I also believe they should be trained to deal with the challenges they will face from demons and humans alike.  I believe there should be a "police" force trained to deal with rogue mages, but that force should be secular and not religious fanatics.  I believe it is morally wrong to lump all mages together with the label "dangerous" and use that as the basis for all dealings with them.  

Given what we ended up with is full on mage and Templar revolt, I have no idea what will happen.  I'm leaning towards the "common enemy" solution where BioWare will throw a Qunari invasion or some such into the mix and the Chantry and mages will have to unite to fight the greater foe.  I guess we'll see.  Perhaps it can be written that the people change their attitudes becaues of the great deeds of the mages against <insert horrendous army here> in DA3.

We have no evidence either way, so using that point (mages should be in town healing people)is pointless.  Which was my point.  Things like that would have helped to paint mages better overall, but mages did not make the effort to change public opinion.

You start with "we have no evidence" and end with "they did not make the effort."  Please pick one.

[Harid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Harid wrote...

People being complete morons doesn't disprove my point. I would argue that Quentin could not be that stupid, as he killed with impunity for 5 years without being caught by law enforcement.

Because no one was capable of finding a wooden hatch in three years. It's the same level of stupidity that we see when Hawke warns Cullen about Anders' plot against the Chantry, with Anders standing right next to Hawke as he's revealing this information.

Harid wrote...

Law enforcement isn't good enough for the power that mages can control.

Not as it currently stands, but that can change. Authority over mages shouldn't be given to a religious military that thinks it has "divine authority" over mages and views mages as "cursed."

Harid wrote...

And we don't know what those people believe. We haven't been to Rivain.

Gaider addressed what the people of Rivain believe at the old board, and his information was posted at the unofficial Dragon Age Wiki (although, for some reason, they never cited his post as the source of the information).

Harid wrote...

The only thing we do know is that seers are a large part of their culture, and people will do things they hate to uphold their culture. We don't know if every abomination is hunted down, we don't know if some abomination is extremely powerful there. We literally know of the codex only, because Isabela wasn't a walking codex entry.

Gaider addressed the abominations are hunted down when they arise among the Chasind and in Rivain, and Merrill says the same thing about possessed elven mages.

Harid wrote...

The fact that you believe slavery no longer exists in the united states is striking to the naievete that is being dealt with on these forums.

I'm talking about legal slavery, out in the open for all to see.

Yes, everyone was stupid in Dragon Age 2.  Someone quoted me earlier stating such.  Ok. . . .what is your point?

As it is right now, that relgious army are the only people that can, on large, kill mages.  They are currently neccessary until Templars start teaching everyone Templar abilities, to which everyone would have to become blood mages for mages to even have a point.

As for your riviani point, ee don't know the results of those hunts.  Which was my point in saying we've never been there.  You clearly believe somehow, that they all end up perfect for the regular people there, right?  Those hunting parties always win, right?

As for your final comment, things like this happen worldwide.  It's legal, it's slavery, and no one does **** about it.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
And don't count the Dalish, please, you insult my intelligence and yours, the affairs of the Dalish have nothing to do with Andrastian nations.

The Dalish count as a society that has survived having free mages, even mage "rulers" without winding up univesally hating them because on occasion one will inevitably go bad.  That is all I meant to put out there.

To your second point, I was arguing off of the point of going from the Circle system as we know it to full mage freedom overnight.  People who do not support this choice will have to deal with the consequences, and those people, without Templars to protect them will be very reticent about having mages dumped on thier front porch, and all it takes is one bad mage to ruin a shakey situation; you would go from mages rebelling to everyone rebelling which is not any kind of peace.

You seem to have decided that I think the way they wrote it is the best way to do it.  I don't.  I do believe mages should have more freedom than they do.  I also believe they should be trained to deal with the challenges they will face from demons and humans alike.  I believe there should be a "police" force trained to deal with rogue mages, but that force should be secular and not religious fanatics.  I believe it is morally wrong to lump all mages together with the label "dangerous" and use that as the basis for all dealings with them.  

Given what we ended up with is full on mage and Templar revolt, I have no idea what will happen.  I'm leaning towards the "common enemy" solution where BioWare will throw a Qunari invasion or some such into the mix and the Chantry and mages will have to unite to fight the greater foe.  I guess we'll see.  Perhaps it can be written that the people change their attitudes becaues of the great deeds of the mages against <insert horrendous army here> in DA3.

We have no evidence either way, so using that point (mages should be in town healing people)is pointless.  Which was my point.  Things like that would have helped to paint mages better overall, but mages did not make the effort to change public opinion.

You start with "we have no evidence" and end with "they did not make the effort."  Please pick one.

We have no evidence they made the effort, so you cannot posit that they did make the effort without proof, which you do not have.  We have only been privy to one Cumberland argument.  We have heard nothing of mages volunteering to cure people around the countryside, so stating that something they can do, when we have no idea whether or not they want to do it isn't an argument I can refute.   I cannot refute things in your head.

[Harid]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


People keep saying the Chantry is orlesian, but then ignore that the vast majority of Thedas is happily Andrastian.

It is a disconnect that I cannot understand.

Perhaps you are the one with the disconnect, then.

The Chantry was formed by an Orlesian Emporor who followed a particular sect of Andrastism. His favored sect was formed into an Organization, the Chantry. Which has always since been an instrument of Orlesian policy. The Chantry does not do this just with armies, but through belief, which is a more powerful weapon than any sword. And because this, the Chantry, this organized sect created by an Orlesian emporer for more political reasons than anything, is one of the biggest reasons orlais holds so much power. The Chantry is holding the monopoly on Andrastism. And if you ever read the Stolen Throne, you will see the Chantry damped alot of resistance by average Fereldens against the occupation by saying that childish idiot Meghren and his moron predecesors ruled because the Maker willed it.

And Fereldan?  The country recovering from a Blight?  That Fereldan?  What would stop every known country from gangstomping them with an Exalted march?  What would stop the people who we have no evidence of wanting what Alistair wants from revolting?  What power would Fereldan really have?

An Exalted March? Well, the Divine could certainly do that. However, given that we already have two other possible exalted marches in the queue, one on Orzammar and one on Kirkwall, the Divine better make up her mind what to do first. because her armies aren't infinite, many have deserted, and she's gonna need alot more than just templars if she's gonna be doing all this exalted marching on everyone. I mean, the logisitics alone would be a nightmare. As Anders would say "Well, good luck with that!"

Not to mention that the Circles within Orlais have revolted like everyone else, the templars there are likely just as rogue as anywhere else, and in the midst of your own heartland, they are running around attacking each other and likely causing alot of collateral damage. How many Orlesian nobles are gonna be happy when their mansions get burned in the crossfire when mages and templars collide. When it starts hitting them personally (which it will likely do) the nobles will start pressuring the empress to step in and regain control of the situation. There's going to be alot less support for exalted marches willy nilly if ones own fortunes are being threatened.

Yet no one complains about the Chantry in Fereldan, the Mother of Fereldan has a say in the Landsmeet, and the Chantry still remains in Fereldan.

I do not care if Orlais started the chantry.  The end result is that the world of Thedas is happily Andrastian regardless.

As for your second point, I cannot argue on Bioware's hack writing of the revolt as I have stated.

And as for the queues in the Exalted Marches, we have no evidence the Orzarammar circle exists.  My warden did not have one created.  It has not been spoken about since the Epilogue, and we have no idea when it happens, as the epiligues do not mention time in that instance, so it's not one that I can count.

And I highly doubt that Exalted Marches are only done with Chantry forces.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
As for your riviani point, ee don't know the results of those hunts.  Which was my point in saying we've never been there.  You clearly believe somehow, that they all end up perfect for the regular people there, right?  Those hunting parties always win, right?

The difference is that the Rivaini and Dalish (and possibly others) appear to consider abominations to be some sort of natural disaster that must be fought and the damage repaired but not as an excuse to lock up everyone else who might possibly become an abomination.  That is the sort of attitude that I'd like to see spread to the Andrastian nations. 

Yes, mages can and do succumb to temptations by demons and become abominations.  They can be trained to resist and apparently the vast majority of them do so.  Therefore, the ones that don't, or that otherwise abuse their magic should be dealt with when required.  The damage they leave in their wake is fixed as best as possible and life goes on. 

Same as areas routinely hit by earthquakes and hurricanes.  No one likes it, people often die or lose everything they have, but life goes on and many of them don't even bother to move to areas safe from those disasters.  Life isn't safe.  There is no guarantee of safety.  Mages in Thedas are just one of many dangers faced by its citizens.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
We have no evidence either way, so using that point (mages should be in town healing people)is pointless.  Which was my point.  Things like that would have helped to paint mages better overall, but mages did not make the effort to change public opinion.
...
We have no evidence they made the effort, so you cannot posit that they did make the effort without proof, which you do not have.  We have only been privy to one Cumberland argument.  We have heard nothing of mages volunteering to cure people around the countryside, so stating that something they can do, when we have no idea whether or not they want to do it isn't an argument I can refute.   I cannot refute things in your head.

I didn't say they had made the effort.  I pointed out that you said both that we don't know and that we know they didn't.  Anyway, nothing that I've argued requires that the mages have been beating down Knight Commanders' doors throughout the history of Chantry run circles demanding to be let out to heal villagers.

I only said that if the mages are allowed to integrate into communities, then other people will have an opportunity to see mages are something other than prisoners of the circles, or hunted apostates.  When they are your neighbors, healers, builders, defenders and potentially even friends and family - then you have a shot at building up goodwill.  Right now, the average Thedan probably doesn't know an adult mage (or doesn't know he knows one).  The unknown is often scarier than the known, even when the known isn't always that great.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
As for your riviani point, ee don't know the results of those hunts.  Which was my point in saying we've never been there.  You clearly believe somehow, that they all end up perfect for the regular people there, right?  Those hunting parties always win, right?

The difference is that the Rivaini and Dalish (and possibly others) appear to consider abominations to be some sort of natural disaster that must be fought and the damage repaired but not as an excuse to lock up everyone else who might possibly become an abomination.  That is the sort of attitude that I'd like to see spread to the Andrastian nations. 

Yes, mages can and do succumb to temptations by demons and become abominations.  They can be trained to resist and apparently the vast majority of them do so.  Therefore, the ones that don't, or that otherwise abuse their magic should be dealt with when required.  The damage they leave in their wake is fixed as best as possible and life goes on. 

Same as areas routinely hit by earthquakes and hurricanes.  No one likes it, people often die or lose everything they have, but life goes on and many of them don't even bother to move to areas safe from those disasters.  Life isn't safe.  There is no guarantee of safety.  Mages in Thedas are just one of many dangers faced by its citizens.

If you are a person going from the circle, where you rarely if ever saw an abomination, to having your families skin ripped off because that newly freed mage got a bit stressed and went off the deep end, do you think that that would be a good enough justification to that person, mind you for mages freedom?  Well, **** happens?  **** that didn't happen with the system we had before?  I dunno.  I just don't see it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Harid wrote...


Yet no one complains about the Chantry in Fereldan, the Mother of Fereldan has a say in the Landsmeet, and the Chantry still remains in Fereldan.

They don't have to be then. No one complained about the Church much in the Middle Ages, either. But when alternate and heretical beliefs started gaining prominance, a number of people started converting to the newer sects with little help or coersion, in the early days of the Reformation. All you really need is a ruler who does not oppose heretical or opposing doctrines, or fail grant the Chantry permission to legally supress heresy.

I do not care if Orlais started the chantry.  The end result is that the world of Thedas is happily Andrastian regardless.

Yet when presented with the growth of rebellious sects that have not been supressed, it is likely a number might find the newer teachings more palatable. And can stay happily Andrastian in the process.

As for your second point, I cannot argue on Bioware's hack writing of the revolt as I have stated.

Well yes, that's one way of looking at it. But its really all we have at the moment, until Bioware should decide later to put a bit more thought into it for future installments.