1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
We have no evidence either way, so using that point (mages should be in town healing people)is pointless.  Which was my point.  Things like that would have helped to paint mages better overall, but mages did not make the effort to change public opinion.
...
We have no evidence they made the effort, so you cannot posit that they did make the effort without proof, which you do not have.  We have only been privy to one Cumberland argument.  We have heard nothing of mages volunteering to cure people around the countryside, so stating that something they can do, when we have no idea whether or not they want to do it isn't an argument I can refute.   I cannot refute things in your head.

I didn't say they had made the effort.  I pointed out that you said both that we don't know and that we know they didn't.  Anyway, nothing that I've argued requires that the mages have been beating down Knight Commanders' doors throughout the history of Chantry run circles demanding to be let out to heal villagers.

I only said that if the mages are allowed to integrate into communities, then other people will have an opportunity to see mages are something other than prisoners of the circles, or hunted apostates.  When they are your neighbors, healers, builders, defenders and potentially even friends and family - then you have a shot at building up goodwill.  Right now, the average Thedan probably doesn't know an adult mage (or doesn't know he knows one).  The unknown is often scarier than the known, even when the known isn't always that great.

And I stated that mages should have been doing this already, which lead to the argument in the first place.  You think one of them would have said "Hey, we can stay in the chantry and you can just bring people to us and we'll heal them!"  And the Chantry said "No?"  If they did, that's something we should have seen.  But we haven't seen mages asking for concessions and getting denied.  We have just seen the shambolic madness of Kirkwall, and the Harry Potteresque Kinlock Hold via comparison.

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

The difference is that the Rivaini and Dalish (and possibly others) appear to consider abominations to be some sort of natural disaster that must be fought and the damage repaired but not as an excuse to lock up everyone else who might possibly become an abomination.  That is the sort of attitude that I'd like to see spread to the Andrastian nations. 

Yes, mages can and do succumb to temptations by demons and become abominations.  They can be trained to resist and apparently the vast majority of them do so.  Therefore, the ones that don't, or that otherwise abuse their magic should be dealt with when required.  The damage they leave in their wake is fixed as best as possible and life goes on. 

Same as areas routinely hit by earthquakes and hurricanes.  No one likes it, people often die or lose everything they have, but life goes on and many of them don't even bother to move to areas safe from those disasters.  Life isn't safe.  There is no guarantee of safety.  Mages in Thedas are just one of many dangers faced by its citizens.

But you also have to take into account that mages serve as rulers or well respected individuals in all of those cultures. Mages serve as the keepers for Dalish tribes, shamans of the Chasind and seers for the Rivani. The Dalish keepers and the Chasind shaman serve as the ruling class for their respective tribes while the seers have a unique role steeped in tradition. It would be very difficult for mages to be overthrown or locked up in such cultures no matter what the general populace thinks. Basically, what we are shown in Thedas are cultures that either control mages or are controled by them.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
If you are a person going from the circle, where you rarely if ever saw an abomination, to having your families skin ripped off because that newly freed mage got a bit stressed and went off the deep end, do you think that that would be a good enough justification to that person, mind you for mages freedom?  Well, **** happens?  **** that didn't happen with the system we had before?  I dunno.  I just don't see it.

The same **** has been happening all along.  Meredith's sister, Connor etc.  All that crap has been happening even with the circles in place.  So...  the people already have a skewed view of mages, due to that.  What they don't have is the counterpoint - all the mages who never give in, never hurt anyone and could have been great benefits to communities across Thedas.

[Harid]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


Yet no one complains about the Chantry in Fereldan, the Mother of Fereldan has a say in the Landsmeet, and the Chantry still remains in Fereldan.

They don't have to be then. No one complained about the Church much in the Middle Ages, either. But when alternate and heretical beliefs started gaining prominance, a number of people started converting to the newer sects with little help or coersion, in the early days of the Reformation. All you really need is a ruler who does not oppose heretical or opposing doctrines, or fail grant the Chantry permission to legally supress heresy.

I do not care if Orlais started the chantry.  The end result is that the world of Thedas is happily Andrastian regardless.

Yet when presented with the growth of rebellious sects that have not been supressed, it is likely a number might find the newer teachings more palatable. And can stay happily Andrastian in the process.

As for your second point, I cannot argue on Bioware's hack writing of the revolt as I have stated.

Well yes, that's one way of looking at it. But its really all we have at the moment, until Bioware should decide later to put a bit more thought into it for future installments.

We have no alternate sects of the Chantry springing up.  This is something that I stated a while ago that was neccessary to make this whole conflict make sense.  For there to be something to supplant the Chantry.  Right now we have nothing to supplant the Chantry incase the Chantry is somehow destroyed other than the Qun, something most here would claim to be worse than the Chantry.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
And I highly doubt that Exalted Marches are only done with Chantry forces.

Ironically, given the point you're trying to make...  those non-Chantry forces are almost certainly Orlesian.

[IanPolaris]

No they don't at least not the Shamans. Mages do NOT form a part of the ruling class for the Chasind. A mage is often a tribal Shaman, A chief, but he is coequal with other non-mage chiefs of the tribe much like many RL Native American tribes.

-Polaris

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
If you are a person going from the circle, where you rarely if ever saw an abomination, to having your families skin ripped off because that newly freed mage got a bit stressed and went off the deep end, do you think that that would be a good enough justification to that person, mind you for mages freedom?  Well, **** happens?  **** that didn't happen with the system we had before?  I dunno.  I just don't see it.

The same **** has been happening all along.  Meredith's sister, Connor etc.  All that crap has been happening even with the circles in place.  So...  the people already have a skewed view of mages, due to that.  What they don't have is the counterpoint - all the mages who never give in, never hurt anyone and could have been great benefits to communities across Thedas.

*Rarely, if ever.*

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

We have no alternate sects of the Chantry springing up.  This is something that I stated a while ago that was neccessary to make this whole conflict make sense.  For there to be something to supplant the Chantry.  Right now we have nothing to supplant the Chantry incase the Chantry is somehow destroyed other than the Qun, something most here would claim to be worse than the Chantry.

Actually we have some compelling evidence to contrary.  If you saved Sister Petrice, in Act III she openly states that the Chantry is about to undergo another schism.  Also Alistair in particular is making increasing noises about going "Church of England" on the Chantry.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

No they don't at least not the Shamans. Mages do NOT form a part of the ruling class for the Chasind. A mage is often a tribal Shaman, A chief, but he is coequal with other non-mage chiefs of the tribe much like many RL Native American tribes.

-Polaris

Chasind codex entry: Today, the Chasind are considered largely peaceful, though their ways
are still primitive compared to our own. In the Korcari Wilds they live
in strange-looking huts built on stilts or even built into the great
treetops. They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled
by shamans like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these
shamans having learned their magic from the "Witches of the Wilds,"
witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even
if there is no definitive proof they exist. In particular, the tale of Flemeth, the greatest witch of the wilds, is celebrated amongst all tribes.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
And I highly doubt that Exalted Marches are only done with Chantry forces.

Ironically, given the point you're trying to make...  those non-Chantry forces are almost certainly Orlesian.

When was this stated?  Like. . .I want to see this come from a dev.

Because I doubt a sovereign nation would allow Orlais, to wander through their soil, especially places like Nevarra and Fereldan, without having their own troops as part of the war party.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...
But you also have to take into account that mages serve as rulers or well respected individuals in all of those cultures. Mages serve as the keepers for Dalish tribes, shamans of the Chasind and seers for the Rivani. The Dalish keepers and the Chasind shaman serve as the ruling class for their respective tribes while the seers have a unique role steeped in tradition. It would be very difficult for mages to be overthrown or locked up in such cultures no matter what the general populace thinks. Basically, what we are shown in Thedas are cultures that either control mages or are controled by them.

There's control and then there's control.  I don't think any of the other cultures have Teventer style control.  And we know that mages can be pretty squishy if you're truly determined.  If we had been presented some evidence that those cultures were unhappy in some way with mage leadership/guidance and felt helpless, I'd rethink it.  But as it is, if the people williingly follow mages because of respect, I see no problem.

[Harid]

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

We have no alternate sects of the Chantry springing up.  This is something that I stated a while ago that was neccessary to make this whole conflict make sense.  For there to be something to supplant the Chantry.  Right now we have nothing to supplant the Chantry incase the Chantry is somehow destroyed other than the Qun, something most here would claim to be worse than the Chantry.

Actually we have some compelling evidence to contrary.  If you saved Sister Petrice, in Act III she openly states that the Chantry is about to undergo another schism.  Also Alistair in particular is making increasing noises about going "Church of England" on the Chantry.

-Polaris

Alistair is a man.  He may be a lord, even a king, but we have no evidence that his wishes are Fereldan's wishes, especially given Fereldan's way of rule.    Something I've stated, I dunno, like 35 times..

And Petrice was crazy.  She was probably talking about her own hardline ideas.

[Torax]

The weakest part is Orsino turning on the players who chose to defend the mages. But it's been said over and over. From what I've been told if you side with the Templars he mentions helping Q and seems to take delight in that fact. Meanwhile for defending after just being victorious against a large rush of Templars it goes like this.

Hawke - Well that was easy.
Orsino - OMG WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE.
Hawke - No, it's okay man. I got your back. Hell I have my entire crew here helping to.
Orsino - We really should just /slash wrist
Hawke - Are you even listening to me?
Orsino - There is no way we can defeat them.
Hawke - Varric, can you help me here?
Varric - Bianca is getting twitchy for some Elven mage blood.
*Orsino turns into a rehashed skin from an Origins DLC.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
But you also have to take into account that mages serve as rulers or well respected individuals in all of those cultures. Mages serve as the keepers for Dalish tribes, shamans of the Chasind and seers for the Rivani. The Dalish keepers and the Chasind shaman serve as the ruling class for their respective tribes while the seers have a unique role steeped in tradition. It would be very difficult for mages to be overthrown or locked up in such cultures no matter what the general populace thinks. Basically, what we are shown in Thedas are cultures that either control mages or are controled by them.

There's control and then there's control.  I don't think any of the other cultures have Teventer style control.  And we know that mages can be pretty squishy if you're truly determined.  If we had been presented some evidence that those cultures were unhappy in some way with mage leadership/guidance and felt helpless, I'd rethink it.  But as it is, if the people williingly follow mages because of respect, I see no problem.

We have little evidence at all of any of these things, because we've never been amungst the Chasind, we never seen a Avvar, and we've never been to Rivain.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Harid wrote...


We have no alternate sects of the Chantry springing up.  This is something that I stated a while ago that was neccessary to make this whole conflict make sense.  For there to be something to supplant the Chantry.  Right now we have nothing to supplant the Chantry incase the Chantry is somehow destroyed other than the Qun, something most here would claim to be worse than the Chantry.

We have various hints in the codexes that they exist. We also see codexes suggesting some Chantry Sisters might have been playing with heresy.

Martin Luther was once a studious, pious Catholic monk before he became the father of the protestant Reformation. And he set off quite a stir simply by setting forth 95 theological challenges for the Church to answer.

Internal fractures within the Chantry itself leading to these sorts of reformation sorts of rebellions seems a more likely scenario than most. The loss of the Circles and templars might have caused enough friction and strife in just deciding how best to deal with the problem.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
When was this stated?  Like. . .I want to see this come from a dev.

Because I doubt a sovereign nation would allow Orlais, to wander through their soil, especially places like Nevarra and Fereldan, without having their own troops as part of the war party.

I'm not sure exactly how many countries are considered Andrastian in Thedas.  Orlais, Fereldan...  parts of Rivain?  The Free Marches.  I don't get the impression that Ferelden has the man-power to help in a March.  The Free Marches are scattered city states who might be able to send some forces, but I don't recall any sort of standing army that could be ordered to March.  That leaves Rivain, which I have no idea about and Orlais.

So, no, I have no proof.  But just thinking about all the politics and logistics, Orlais is the likely source of most non-Chantry forces.  The Chevaliers are written such that I think they'd like the opportunity for plunder and mayhem anyway.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
We have little evidence at all of any of these things, because we've never been amungst the Chasind, we never seen a Avvar, and we've never been to Rivain.

Sadly true.  Because apparently no matter how much of a violent cesspool Kirkwall turns out to be, Hawke prefers that to everything else.  Blech.

[Harid]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


We have no alternate sects of the Chantry springing up.  This is something that I stated a while ago that was neccessary to make this whole conflict make sense.  For there to be something to supplant the Chantry.  Right now we have nothing to supplant the Chantry incase the Chantry is somehow destroyed other than the Qun, something most here would claim to be worse than the Chantry.

We have various hints in the codexes that they exist. We also see codexes suggesting some Chantry Sisters might have been playing with heresy.

Martin Luther was once a studious, pious Catholic monk before he became the father of the protestant Reformation. And he set off quite a stir simply by setting forth 95 theological challenges for the Church to answer.

Internal fractures within the Chantry itself leading to these sorts of reformation sorts of rebellions seems a more likely scenario than most. The loss of the Circles and templars might have caused enough friction and strife in just deciding how best to deal with the problem.

This is an argument from your head.  I cannot posit an argument based on things that come from your head.  Because I cannot make any inroads or grounds based on things from your head.

Heresy is a generic term that can mean many things.  And I don't care about the history lesson, who is Martin Luther in Dragon Age right now?  We got nothin' cause Bioware didn't have enough forsight to remember that war aside, most of Thedas is happily Andrastian.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
We have little evidence at all of any of these things, because we've never been amungst the Chasind, we never seen a Avvar, and we've never been to Rivain.

Sadly true.  Because apparently no matter how much of a violent cesspool Kirkwall turns out to be, Hawke prefers that to everything else.  Blech.

Agreed.  There were plenty of reasons for Hawke to leave Kirkwall.  I still remember the pre Dragon Age 2 map that showed all of these parts of Thedas I thought we'd get to see.  Unfortunately, it never happened.

[Zanallen]

Harid wrote...

We have little evidence at all of any of these things, because we've never been amungst the Chasind, we never seen a Avvar, and we've never been to Rivain.

This. And regardless of if the people want to live under mages or not, it is still evidence that we have no instances of mages and non-mages living equally together. Mages either rule or are ruled. Unless you want to use the Haven cultists as an example. Which you could, I suppose, but I don't know how viable a cult of insane dragon worshipers who commit human sacrifice is an a legitimate example.

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

Alistair is a man.  He may be a lord, even a king, but we have no evidence that his wishes are Fereldan's wishes, especially given Fereldan's way of rule.    Something I've stated, I dunno, like 35 times..

So was King Henry VIII and a Church of England was NOT the wish of the nation.  Read your history.  Many of the same dynamics that allowed King Henry to give the Pope the big middle finger also enable and even encourage King Alistair to, esp when we learn that King Alistair is already defying the Chantry by Freeing the Circle (or trying to) and by making Fereldan a mage-haven.

And Petrice was crazy.  She was probably talking about her own hardline ideas.

The exact same thing was said about Martin Luther who was also a simple man.

-Polaris

[Harid]

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Alistair is a man.  He may be a lord, even a king, but we have no evidence that his wishes are Fereldan's wishes, especially given Fereldan's way of rule.    Something I've stated, I dunno, like 35 times..

So was King Henry VIII and a Church of England was NOT the wish of the nation.  Read your history.  Many of the same dynamics that allowed King Henry to give the Pope the big middle finger also enable and even encourage King Alistair to, esp when we learn that King Alistair is already defying the Chantry by Freeing the Circle (or trying to) and by making Fereldan a mage-haven.

And Petrice was crazy.  She was probably talking about her own hardline ideas.

The exact same thing was said about Martin Luther who was also a simple man.

-Polaris

England didn't have a Landsmeet, they had a King that could do whatever he wished.  Alistair doesn't have that same impunity.

And Petrice is dead in my game.  So your simple man is simply dead.  Shot through the neck,  She will lead nothing.  She cant be the leader of anything, for that simple reason, and given her crazy ideas if she's your Martin Luther then I pity you.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

Harid wrote...

We have little evidence at all of any of these things, because we've never been amungst the Chasind, we never seen a Avvar, and we've never been to Rivain.

This. And regardless of if the people want to live under mages or not, it is still evidence that we have no instances of mages and non-mages living equally together. Mages either rule or are ruled. Unless you want to use the Haven cultists as an example. Which you could, I suppose, but I don't know how viable a cult of insane dragon worshipers who commit human sacrifice is an a legitimate example.

Chasind as well had mage and non-mage live pretty much equally.  I'd also say the Dalish count.  You have to be a mage to be keeper but just because you are a mage, doesn't mean you are a keeper (we meet many mages such as Anarien in DAO that are Dalish tribe members and mages but not keepers).  Likewise many other positions of respect such as Chief Crafter, Hahren (story teller), Chief Hunter and many more in the Dalish are clear leadership position but don't require that you be a mage.

-Polaris

[Harid]

IanPolaris wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Harid wrote...

We have little evidence at all of any of these things, because we've never been amungst the Chasind, we never seen a Avvar, and we've never been to Rivain.

This. And regardless of if the people want to live under mages or not, it is still evidence that we have no instances of mages and non-mages living equally together. Mages either rule or are ruled. Unless you want to use the Haven cultists as an example. Which you could, I suppose, but I don't know how viable a cult of insane dragon worshipers who commit human sacrifice is an a legitimate example.

Chasind as well had mage and non-mage live pretty much equally.  I'd also say the Dalish count.  You have to be a mage to be keeper but just because you are a mage, doesn't mean you are a keeper (we meet many mages such as Anarien in DAO that are Dalish tribe members and mages but not keepers).  Likewise many other positions of respect such as Chief Crafter, Hahren (story teller), Chief Hunter and many more in the Dalish are clear leadership position but don't require that you be a mage.

-Polaris

The Dalish are lead by mages.  You are clearly ignoring his point.

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Alistair is a man.  He may be a lord, even a king, but we have no evidence that his wishes are Fereldan's wishes, especially given Fereldan's way of rule.    Something I've stated, I dunno, like 35 times..

So was King Henry VIII and a Church of England was NOT the wish of the nation.  Read your history.  Many of the same dynamics that allowed King Henry to give the Pope the big middle finger also enable and even encourage King Alistair to, esp when we learn that King Alistair is already defying the Chantry by Freeing the Circle (or trying to) and by making Fereldan a mage-haven.

And Petrice was crazy.  She was probably talking about her own hardline ideas.

The exact same thing was said about Martin Luther who was also a simple man.

-Polaris

England didn't have a Landsmeet, they had a King that could do whatever he wished.  Alistair doesn't have that same impunity.

No.  England has something called a Parliament which even in the time of King Henry the VIII actually had more power (Iand much the same type) as Feredan's Landsmeet.  What do you think Fereldan is modeled off of anyway?  The govt type and situation in Fereldan is almost a dead ringer for England of the early sixteenth century!

Read your history.

And Petrice is dead in my game.  So your simple man is simply dead.  Shot through the neck,  She will lead nothing.

You can't kill an idea.  The fact is that Petrice shows us that there is a split coming in the chantry over dogma.

-Polaris