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[TEWR]

Harid wrote...


Nice to see you dance around answering my question.  Not to mention closing the veil tears in the Blackmarsh aren't done by Justice, they are done by you trying to gain a set of Armor, but I digress.

Again.  I ask again.  If those tears have been known for hundreds of years, and no one fixed them, doesn't that tell you that it's a bit harder than it has been shown through our awesome warden?  What about all of the other known tears in the veil that haven't been fixed, like Sundermount.  Why aren't they, if it's so bloody easy?

I didn't mention the Blackmarsh in my previous post (in other posts I did, but the last one was talking about Avernus).

No one knew why the Blackmarsh just vanished. All they knew was that one day it was there and the next it wasn't. Nathaniel tells you this, that there were no answers to what happened. They say it's haunted, but that is not indicative of them knowing the Veil was thin. And if they don't know the Veil is thin there, they are unable to repair it aren't they? At least until they do find out the Veil was thin, which is what the Warden can do. He's not required to. He can do it. It's optional.

edit: the events of the Blackmarsh happened during the Orlesian occupation. Avernus could only repair the Veil in one place, and no one else knew the true story of Soldier's Peak. They just knew the history of its founding.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:13 .

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

The Dalish are lead by mages.  You are clearly ignoring his point.

No.  The Dalish are led by a KEEPER who happens to be a mage.  The Dalish clearly don't put the emphasis on magic since according to their traditions, magic is a birthright for all elves that has been slowly lost.  Thus if there is favortism towards mages it's not because of magic but because of a greater apparent connection to their ancestral state.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Chasind as well had mage and non-mage live pretty much equally.  I'd also say the Dalish count.  You have to be a mage to be keeper but just because you are a mage, doesn't mean you are a keeper (we meet many mages such as Anarien in DAO that are Dalish tribe members and mages but not keepers).  Likewise many other positions of respect such as Chief Crafter, Hahren (story teller), Chief Hunter and many more in the Dalish are clear leadership position but don't require that you be a mage.

-Polaris

How can you say that? We don't know anything about the Chasind other than what is in the codex and it clearly states that the clans are governed by shaman who are mages. As for more mages within the Dalish, the keeper page on the wiki says that if a clan has more than two mages, the keeper and their first, those excess mages will be transfered to another clan to become first or keeper.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Chasind as well had mage and non-mage live pretty much equally.  I'd also say the Dalish count.  You have to be a mage to be keeper but just because you are a mage, doesn't mean you are a keeper (we meet many mages such as Anarien in DAO that are Dalish tribe members and mages but not keepers).  Likewise many other positions of respect such as Chief Crafter, Hahren (story teller), Chief Hunter and many more in the Dalish are clear leadership position but don't require that you be a mage.

-Polaris

How can you say that? We don't know anything about the Chasind other than what is in the codex and it clearly states that the clans are governed by shaman who are mages. As for more mages within the Dalish, the keeper page on the wiki says that if a clan has more than two mages, the keeper and their first, those excess mages will be transfered to another clan to become first or keeper.

There is an entire codex on the Chasind that make it clear that a mage is PART of the tribal ruling council. 

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
The Dalish are lead by mages.  You are clearly ignoring his point.

They are led by mages AND live along side them.

Anyway, taking power by force is different from being asked to lead by the people.  We're not given any actual history of how the Dalish came to be led by the mage Keepers, or just how much authority a Rivaini seer has - but it doesn't change the fact that the people are presented as OK with whatever power the mages have.  It doesn't seem to be abused and doesn't seem to be unwanted.

[Harid]

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Alistair is a man.  He may be a lord, even a king, but we have no evidence that his wishes are Fereldan's wishes, especially given Fereldan's way of rule.    Something I've stated, I dunno, like 35 times..

So was King Henry VIII and a Church of England was NOT the wish of the nation.  Read your history.  Many of the same dynamics that allowed King Henry to give the Pope the big middle finger also enable and even encourage King Alistair to, esp when we learn that King Alistair is already defying the Chantry by Freeing the Circle (or trying to) and by making Fereldan a mage-haven.

And Petrice was crazy.  She was probably talking about her own hardline ideas.

The exact same thing was said about Martin Luther who was also a simple man.

-Polaris

England didn't have a Landsmeet, they had a King that could do whatever he wished.  Alistair doesn't have that same impunity.

No.  England has something called a Parliament which even in the time of King Henry the VIII actually had more power (Iand much the same type) as Feredan's Landsmeet.  What do you think Fereldan is modeled off of anyway?  The govt type and situation in Fereldan is almost a dead ringer for England of the early sixteenth century!

Read your history.

And Petrice is dead in my game.  So your simple man is simply dead.  Shot through the neck,  She will lead nothing.

You can't kill an idea.  The fact is that Petrice shows us that there is a split coming in the chantry over dogma.

-Polaris

So you expect Alistair to banish the Chantry and use their coffers to buy off nobles despite him not having an inkling of that kind of thought or ambition?  Who is he going to make his Divine?  Teagan? Ok.  I don't see the comparison because Alistair isn't King Henry.

I cant argue with make believe things in your head.

And like I stated, we have no idea if that Schism is out of petrice's head.  And even if it is she has not shown herself to give a **** about mages anyway.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

How can you say that? We don't know anything about the Chasind other than what is in the codex and it clearly states that the clans are governed by shaman who are mages. As for more mages within the Dalish, the keeper page on the wiki says that if a clan has more than two mages, the keeper and their first, those excess mages will be transfered to another clan to become first or keeper.

The wiki is wrong.  We know (in DAO) that Zathrien's clan has Anerien in it at the very least in addition to the Keeper and his first. If you fight the clan, you find there are at least two other mages in addition to that.

The Wiki is unreliable at best.  Game lore always overrides it and this is such a case.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

There is an entire codex on the Chasind that make it clear that a mage is PART of the tribal ruling council. 

-Polaris

Would you care to point said codex out? 'Cause this one: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Chasind clearly states that the tribes are lead by shaman who have magic that was possibly learned from the Witches of the Wild.
 

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

The wiki is wrong.  We know (in DAO) that Zathrien's clan has Anerien in it at the very least in addition to the Keeper and his first. If you fight the clan, you find there are at least two other mages in addition to that.

The Wiki is unreliable at best.  Game lore always overrides it and this is such a case.

-Polaris

Perhaps Anerien hasn't had the chance to move to a different tribe yet? It is only done during the clan meets, much like it was done for Merrill.

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

So you expect Alistair to banish the Chantry and use their coffers to buy off nobles despite him not having an inkling of that kind of thought or ambition?  Who is he going to make his Divine?  Teagan? Ok.  I don't see the comparison because Alistair isn't King Henry.

I expect nothing of the sort.  You really do need to read Enlgish history.  I expect Alistair to declar himself head of the Denerium chantry and modify the stance towards magic.  I expect he'll keep almost all the existing chantry and their sisters in their current posts.  Really the only person he'd have to either replace or get on his side would be the grand cleric, and Alistair as not just King but one who rescued Fereldan has a lot of political clout even with the Grand Cleric of Denerim.

The point is that King Henry didn't "kick out" the Cathloic Church (save those primates that wouldn't accept the Church of England).  He merely took over managment and keep the structure pretty much the same.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Harid wrote...

This is an argument from your head.  I cannot posit an argument based on things that come from your head.  Because I cannot make any inroads or grounds based on things from your head.

Heresy is a generic term that can mean many things.  And I don't care about the history lession, who is Martin Luther in Dragon Age right now?  We got nothin' cause Bioware didn't have enough forsight to remember that war aside, most of Thedas is happily Andrastian.

I am making comparisons in the real world. Sorry the history lesson offends you so. Well, no, I'm not, really. The point was making a comparison of possibilities and similarities here, and why your assumption that being "happily" Andrastian is a weak one. As well as you forgetting that Andrastism does not automatically = Chantry.

And yes, we know Bioware's writing was crap here. That's not the point here, at least not in this specific example. Being happily Andrastian has nothing to do with the potential for a major religous revolution, or a social one. The Chantry practices one sect of Andrastism. others can develop, especially if people start seeing the office of the Divine as corrupt, or no longer having the Maker's mandate. It's called speculation, and its something we do alot, crap writing or not.

The fact that the templars,amongst the most religous of the Andrastians, have left the organizational and spiritual authority of the Chantry is very interesting. Somehow, I doubt the templars have all become athiests or changed their religion. They are probably still devout Andrastians, and have rebelled because they no longer see the Divine and the Chantry as an organization serving the Maker's will.
.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is an entire codex on the Chasind that make it clear that a mage is PART of the tribal ruling council. 

-Polaris

Would you care to point said codex out? 'Cause this one: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Chasind clearly states that the tribes are lead by shaman who have magic that was possibly learned from the Witches of the Wild.
 

It doesn't say what you think it does.  Specifically it does not say that the shamans are mages.  Only that some are having learned their magic (according to legend) from the Witches of the WIld.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The wiki is wrong.  We know (in DAO) that Zathrien's clan has Anerien in it at the very least in addition to the Keeper and his first. If you fight the clan, you find there are at least two other mages in addition to that.

The Wiki is unreliable at best.  Game lore always overrides it and this is such a case.

-Polaris

Perhaps Anerien hasn't had the chance to move to a different tribe yet? It is only done during the clan meets, much like it was done for Merrill.

Possible, but I got the impression he'd been there quite a while.  Wynn tells the story as though it happened when she was much younger.  So he's been free for a long time, just a matter of how long he'd been with that clan.

I never sided with the Werewolves against the clan, so are you sure, Ian, that you fought a few extra mages?  That would be interesting.  I don't remember who I fought in Merrill's clan, but there could have been a few extra mages there as well.

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

It doesn't say what you think it does.  Specifically it does not say that the shamans are mages.  Only that some are having learned their magic (according to legend) from the Witches of the WIld.

-Polaris

"They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans
like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans
having learned their magic from the "Witches of the Wilds," witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even if there is no definitive proof they exist."

Many tales of these shamans. Not some shamans. These shamans. Meaning all these shamans.

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Possible, but I got the impression he'd been there quite a while.  Wynn tells the story as though it happened when she was much younger.  So he's been free for a long time, just a matter of how long he'd been with that clan.

I never sided with the Werewolves against the clan, so are you sure, Ian, that you fought a few extra mages?  That would be interesting.  I don't remember who I fought in Merrill's clan, but there could have been a few extra mages there as well.

The Arlathvhen happen every 10 years or so.

[Harid]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...

This is an argument from your head.  I cannot posit an argument based on things that come from your head.  Because I cannot make any inroads or grounds based on things from your head.

Heresy is a generic term that can mean many things.  And I don't care about the history lession, who is Martin Luther in Dragon Age right now?  We got nothin' cause Bioware didn't have enough forsight to remember that war aside, most of Thedas is happily Andrastian.

I am making comparisons in the real world. Sorry the history lesson offends you so. Well, no, I'm not, really. The point was making a comparison of possibilities and similarities here, and why your assumption that being "happily" Andrastian is a weak one. As well as you forgetting that Andrastism does not automatically = Chantry.

And yes, we know Bioware's writing was crap here. That's not the point here, at least not in this specific example. Being happily Andrastian has nothing to do with the potential for a major religous revolution, or a social one. The Chantry practices one sect of Andrastism. others can develop, especially if people start seeing the office of the Divine as corrupt, or no longer having the Maker's mandate. It's called speculation, and its something we do alot, crap writing or not.

The fact that the templars,amongst the most religous of the Andrastians, have left the organizational and spiritual authority of the Chantry is very interesting. Somehow, I doubt the templars have all become athiests or changed their religion. They are probably still devout Andrastians, and have rebelled because they no longer see the Divine and the Chantry as an organization serving the Maker's will.
.

There is a Circle and a Chantry in every nation in Thedas. . .

I never stated that there cannot be a revolution within the Chantry.  I have stated that there is not one written and speculating on something that may or may not happen is pointless.

The church of England took decades to reestablish.  This is something that should have been created before the Templar/Mage war entirely.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[Harid]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It doesn't say what you think it does.  Specifically it does not say that the shamans are mages.  Only that some are having learned their magic (according to legend) from the Witches of the WIld.

-Polaris

"They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans
like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans
having learned their magic from the "Witches of the Wilds," witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even if there is no definitive proof they exist."

Many tales of these shamans. Not some shamans. These shamans. Meaning all these shamans.

It doesn't say what he thinks, so you are clearly wrong.

[Harid]

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

So you expect Alistair to banish the Chantry and use their coffers to buy off nobles despite him not having an inkling of that kind of thought or ambition?  Who is he going to make his Divine?  Teagan? Ok.  I don't see the comparison because Alistair isn't King Henry.

I expect nothing of the sort.  You really do need to read Enlgish history.  I expect Alistair to declar himself head of the Denerium chantry and modify the stance towards magic.  I expect he'll keep almost all the existing chantry and their sisters in their current posts.  Really the only person he'd have to either replace or get on his side would be the grand cleric, and Alistair as not just King but one who rescued Fereldan has a lot of political clout even with the Grand Cleric of Denerim.

The point is that King Henry didn't "kick out" the Cathloic Church (save those primates that wouldn't accept the Church of England).  He merely took over managment and keep the structure pretty much the same.

-Polaris

Ahahahaah.  I guess the Alistair I played with in Dragon Age Origins, and the one that cameos in Dragon Age two are completely different people to the ones you had in your games.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It doesn't say what you think it does.  Specifically it does not say that the shamans are mages.  Only that some are having learned their magic (according to legend) from the Witches of the WIld.

-Polaris

"They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans
like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans
having learned their magic from the "Witches of the Wilds," witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even if there is no definitive proof they exist."

Many tales of these shamans. Not some shamans. These shamans. Meaning all these shamans.

It still isn't the definitive proof you're looking for.  In the first place it's unclear that all shamans are in fact mages, only that some are rumored to be.  In the second place, you don't know that they rule because of magic or because of some other selection.

In short, you can't say the Chasind are a "mage ruled" society.  There is more to it than that.

-Polaris

[Harid]

IanPolaris wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

How can you say that? We don't know anything about the Chasind other than what is in the codex and it clearly states that the clans are governed by shaman who are mages. As for more mages within the Dalish, the keeper page on the wiki says that if a clan has more than two mages, the keeper and their first, those excess mages will be transfered to another clan to become first or keeper.

The wiki is wrong.  We know (in DAO) that Zathrien's clan has Anerien in it at the very least in addition to the Keeper and his first. If you fight the clan, you find there are at least two other mages in addition to that.

The Wiki is unreliable at best.  Game lore always overrides it and this is such a case.

-Polaris

Really.  Apparently abominations are the stumbling retards you fight in game and aren't the horrors they are. . .well everywhere else, because this guy says so.

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

Ahahahaah.  I guess the Alistair I played with in Dragon Age Origins, and the one that cameos in Dragon Age two are completely different people to the ones you had in your games.

You must have gotten the bootlegged copy then.  Alistair makes it very clear esp in his cameo that he is going (or at least thinking about) going church of england on the chantry which does NOT necessarily involve kicking them out.  It involves having the state take them over.  There is a difference.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

Filament wrote...

Technically just because there's a tale that describes witch doctors (from thousands of years ago) as having magical powers doesn't mean they actually do... though in Thedas, they probably do.

That is the Chasind of today.

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

Really.  Apparently abominations are the stumbling retards you fight in game and aren't the horrors they are. . .well everywhere else, because this guy says so.

I said GAME LORE not game play.  There are several places where the Wiki is in error (such as the ability to sleep with a certain dwarf in Redcliff).  If the lore in the game contradicts the lore in the WIki, the game wins.

-POlaris

[Harid]

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Ahahahaah.  I guess the Alistair I played with in Dragon Age Origins, and the one that cameos in Dragon Age two are completely different people to the ones you had in your games.

You must have gotten the bootlegged copy then.  Alistair makes it very clear esp in his cameo that he is going (or at least thinking about) going church of england on the chantry which does NOT necessarily involve kicking them out.  It involves having the state take them over.  There is a difference.

-Polaris

I'm sure he does in your head, buddy.

I am also sure he's going to do what took decades in three years too.