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Will mages continue to be depicted as insane and stupid in DLC?


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#801
IanPolaris

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Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Ahahahaah.  I guess the Alistair I played with in Dragon Age Origins, and the one that cameos in Dragon Age two are completely different people to the ones you had in your games.


You must have gotten the bootlegged copy then.  Alistair makes it very clear esp in his cameo that he is going (or at least thinking about) going church of england on the chantry which does NOT necessarily involve kicking them out.  It involves having the state take them over.  There is a difference.

-Polaris


I'm sure he does in your head, buddy.

I am also sure he's going to do what took decades in three years too.


A lot more people than me have drawn exactly the same historical parallel.  You might try reading some 16th century engish history....

-Polaris

#802
Harid

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IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Really.  Apparently abominations are the stumbling retards you fight in game and aren't the horrors they are. . .well everywhere else, because this guy says so.


I said GAME LORE not game play.  There are several places where the Wiki is in error (such as the ability to sleep with a certain dwarf in Redcliff).  If the lore in the game contradicts the lore in the WIki, the game wins.

-POlaris


You quoted gameplay to make your point.  You can't have it both ways.

#803
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Zanallen wrote...

Filament wrote...

Technically just because there's a tale that describes witch doctors (from thousands of years ago) as having magical powers doesn't mean they actually do... though in Thedas, they probably do.


That is the Chasind of today.


Oh. Yeah they're probably mages.

#804
IanPolaris

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Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Really.  Apparently abominations are the stumbling retards you fight in game and aren't the horrors they are. . .well everywhere else, because this guy says so.


I said GAME LORE not game play.  There are several places where the Wiki is in error (such as the ability to sleep with a certain dwarf in Redcliff).  If the lore in the game contradicts the lore in the WIki, the game wins.

-POlaris


You quoted gameplay to make your point.  You can't have it both ways.


Nope.  Anerin as a character is part of GAME LORE.

-Polaris

#805
Harid

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IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Ahahahaah.  I guess the Alistair I played with in Dragon Age Origins, and the one that cameos in Dragon Age two are completely different people to the ones you had in your games.


You must have gotten the bootlegged copy then.  Alistair makes it very clear esp in his cameo that he is going (or at least thinking about) going church of england on the chantry which does NOT necessarily involve kicking them out.  It involves having the state take them over.  There is a difference.

-Polaris


I'm sure he does in your head, buddy.

I am also sure he's going to do what took decades in three years too.


A lot more people than me have drawn exactly the same historical parallel.  You might try reading some 16th century engish history....

-Polaris


I don't care what people here speculate.  I care what actually occurs, and if Bioware makes something that took decades occur in years, from a guy that doesn't have the mind or ambition to do it, then it'll be just another long line of bad writing that they have perpetrated in the DA lore.

#806
Harid

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IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Really.  Apparently abominations are the stumbling retards you fight in game and aren't the horrors they are. . .well everywhere else, because this guy says so.


I said GAME LORE not game play.  There are several places where the Wiki is in error (such as the ability to sleep with a certain dwarf in Redcliff).  If the lore in the game contradicts the lore in the WIki, the game wins.

-POlaris


You quoted gameplay to make your point.  You can't have it both ways.


Nope.  Anerin as a character is part of GAME LORE.

-Polaris


Anerin isn't part of the Dalish.  He left them.

I was talking about the fight in the Dalish village when you side with the werewolves, by the way, something you used as an example.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:38 .


#807
Zanallen

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IanPolaris wrote...

It still isn't the definitive proof you're looking for.  In the first place it's unclear that all shamans are in fact mages, only that some are rumored to be.  In the second place, you don't know that they rule because of magic or because of some other selection.

In short, you can't say the Chasind are a "mage ruled" society.  There is more to it than that.

-Polaris


There is nothing that says the shamans are not all mages. The only proof we have is that the codex says "these shamans" which would seem to equate that all of the Chasind shamans are mages. There is no some or a couple or anything that would make me think that only a portion of the Chasind shamans are mages. And I never said that the shamans ruled because of magic. I said they were magic users who, in turn, rule the Chasind. Just like the Keepers, magic users, are the rulers of the Dalish clans. The Magisters rule in Tevinter. The seers, while not rulers, hold an important, while not terribly defined, role in the society of Rivain. As such, my post still stands. We have seen no instances of a society where mages live equally with the non-mage populace. They are either the rulers of or are of spiritual importance to said society or are ruled by non magic users.

#808
erilben

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GavrielKay wrote...

I never sided with the Werewolves against the clan, so are you sure, Ian, that you fought a few extra mages?  That would be interesting.  I don't remember who I fought in Merrill's clan, but there could have been a few extra mages there as well.


It's true. Elora the Halla keeper is a mage, which makes sense. The toolset described as being a veterinarian.

#809
IanPolaris

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Harid wrote...

I don't care what people here speculate.  I care what actually occurs, and if Bioware makes something that took decades occur in years, from a guy that doesn't have the mind or ambition to do it, then it'll be just another long line of bad writing that they have perpetrated in the DA lore.


Then why are you arguing the point?  You said that you didn't see how the Chantry could break up.  A lot of us have shown very good rationals for it using strong game and historical parallels.

-Polaris

#810
Harid

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IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

I don't care what people here speculate.  I care what actually occurs, and if Bioware makes something that took decades occur in years, from a guy that doesn't have the mind or ambition to do it, then it'll be just another long line of bad writing that they have perpetrated in the DA lore.


Then why are you arguing the point?  You said that you didn't see how the Chantry could break up.  A lot of us have shown very good rationals for it using strong game and historical parallels.

-Polaris


I was arguing based on the opinion of some to 'overthrow the Chantry.'

You started this nonsensical tangent.

#811
IanPolaris

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Harid wrote...

Anerin isn't part of the Dalish.  He left them.


False. He chooses to live apart but is very definately part of the clan and the clan so regards him.  More proof?  See those tattooes on his face?  That's 'blood writing' which is only given to adult members of the clan.

He may choose to live apart but game lore makes it very clear that you continue to be considered part of the clan.

-Polaris

#812
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Harid wrote...


There is a Circle and a Chantry in every nation in Thedas. . .



Yes, and interestingly enough, Circles vary quite a bit in their conditions and policies. Some are harsher and more restrictive than others. Given attitudes of most Rivani people towards magic, for example, it is likely the Rivani circle is very loose and relaxed compared to, say, Ferelden's Circle. I thinik that local politics and culture has alot of influence in how a Circle is run or even viewed. We see major differences between Ferelden's Circle and the Gallows. It is likely circles everywhere run a range of operating styles and such. Antiva's Circle, from Zevran's tale of assassinating (after a fun filled romp) the Circle mage who was involving herself in politics, and has angered someone enough that they hired the crows to take care of the problem. In Ferelden and Kirkwall, a mage getting directly involved in politics would be prevented by the templars, not assassins. So in Antiva, even the Chantry is not safe from the crows, who really run the place from the shadows. And from the sounds of it, Antiva has an...interesting Circle. :?



I never stated that there cannot be a revolution within the Chantry.  I have stated that there is not one written and speculating on something that may or may not happen is pointless.



Speculation on a game is pretty much the bulk of any gaming community, I think. And the usual purpose of these boards.

#813
Harid

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IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Anerin isn't part of the Dalish.  He left them.


False. He chooses to live apart but is very definately part of the clan and the clan so regards him.  More proof?  See those tattooes on his face?  That's 'blood writing' which is only given to adult members of the clan.

He may choose to live apart but game lore makes it very clear that you continue to be considered part of the clan.

-Polaris


"He has chosen to live with the animals and the trees" is considered part of the clan to you?

Blood writing doesn't mean anything.  Dalish Clans are not the Wardens.  Merrill has Blood Writing.  She is not considered part of her clan.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:44 .


#814
Harid

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


There is a Circle and a Chantry in every nation in Thedas. . .



Yes, and interestingly enough, Circles vary quite a bit in their conditions and policies. Some are harsher and more restrictive than others. Given attitudes of most Rivani people towards magic, for example, it is likely the Rivani circle is very loose and relaxed compared to, say, Ferelden's Circle. I thinik that local politics and culture has alot of influence in how a Circle is run or even viewed. We see major differences between Ferelden's Circle and the Gallows. It is likely circles everywhere run a range of operating styles and such. Antiva's Circle, from Zevran's tale of assassinating (after a fun filled romp) the Circle mage who was involving herself in politics, and has angered someone enough that they hired the crows to take care of the problem. In Ferelden and Kirkwall, a mage getting directly involved in politics would be prevented by the templars, not assassins. So in Antiva, even the Chantry is not safe from the crows, who really run the place from the shadows. And from the sounds of it, Antiva has an...interesting Circle. :?


Which is one of the many reasons why all Circles revolting simultanously is bad writing and I have stated such.

#815
GavrielKay

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erilben wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I never sided with the Werewolves against the clan, so are you sure, Ian, that you fought a few extra mages?  That would be interesting.  I don't remember who I fought in Merrill's clan, but there could have been a few extra mages there as well.


It's true. Elora the Halla keeper is a mage, which makes sense. The toolset described as being a veterinarian.


Cool.

Even if the other cultures we know of don't live along side mages with absolute equality, one thing they do is give the mages responsibility.  The mages are part of the community and have every reason to learn to resist temptation and be good people.  Mages brought up to believe they are merely dangerous weapons never have quite the same motivation to be good.

#816
Harid

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GavrielKay wrote...

erilben wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I never sided with the Werewolves against the clan, so are you sure, Ian, that you fought a few extra mages?  That would be interesting.  I don't remember who I fought in Merrill's clan, but there could have been a few extra mages there as well.


It's true. Elora the Halla keeper is a mage, which makes sense. The toolset described as being a veterinarian.


Cool.

Even if the other cultures we know of don't live along side mages with absolute equality, one thing they do is give the mages responsibility.  The mages are part of the community and have every reason to learn to resist temptation and be good people.  Mages brought up to believe they are merely dangerous weapons never have quite the same motivation to be good.


Proving them wrong is apparently bad motivation for doing good?

#817
Torax

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IanPolaris wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

How can you say that? We don't know anything about the Chasind other than what is in the codex and it clearly states that the clans are governed by shaman who are mages. As for more mages within the Dalish, the keeper page on the wiki says that if a clan has more than two mages, the keeper and their first, those excess mages will be transfered to another clan to become first or keeper.


The wiki is wrong.  We know (in DAO) that Zathrien's clan has Anerien in it at the very least in addition to the Keeper and his first. If you fight the clan, you find there are at least two other mages in addition to that.

The Wiki is unreliable at best.  Game lore always overrides it and this is such a case.

-Polaris


Judgement on anything regarding Anerien is moot. In fact while he camps out in the woods near the dalish. He does appear to keep himself separate of them. He also seems to lack interest in any form of leadership or responsiblity. An isolationist to the letter. So trying to decide the rules for all dalish on a flat eared mage who happened to find the dalish after he'd be run through by templars? Putting a lot of assumptions on what he'd wish to do. Should also note the Codex doesn't address if they're forced to be keepers or the first. Especially if they'd be forced to do so when they were not even born dalish. Generally it seems a willing task by many. In regards to sending magic users to other clans? It's likely an event every 10 years and whose to say none of the clans needed a new first or keeper in the first place? In fact they all could have been fine for a long time.

Most overlooked part. It seemed to be implied that there were multiple mages that wanted to be Zathrien's first. So it's not like one is defaulted and odds are any extra magic users among the dalish would just be seen like a normal member of the clan. Be it a hunter, crafter or any member of the clan.

Modifié par Torax, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:47 .


#818
IanPolaris

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Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Anerin isn't part of the Dalish.  He left them.


False. He chooses to live apart but is very definately part of the clan and the clan so regards him.  More proof?  See those tattooes on his face?  That's 'blood writing' which is only given to adult members of the clan.

He may choose to live apart but game lore makes it very clear that you continue to be considered part of the clan.

-Polaris


"He has chosen to live with the animals and the trees" is considered part of the clan to you?

Blood writing doesn't mean anything.  Dalish Clans are not the Wardens.


Yes it does.  Even Merrill is considered part of the Clan as is Feynriel's mother even after living for years away.

Read this:

http://dragonage.wik...:_Blood_Writing

Makes it very clear that if you have blood writing, you are considered an adult member of the clan.

-Polaris

#819
Harid

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IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Harid wrote...

Anerin isn't part of the Dalish.  He left them.


False. He chooses to live apart but is very definately part of the clan and the clan so regards him.  More proof?  See those tattooes on his face?  That's 'blood writing' which is only given to adult members of the clan.

He may choose to live apart but game lore makes it very clear that you continue to be considered part of the clan.

-Polaris


"He has chosen to live with the animals and the trees" is considered part of the clan to you?

Blood writing doesn't mean anything.  Dalish Clans are not the Wardens.


Yes it does.  Even Merrill is considered part of the Clan as is Feynriel's mother even after living for years away.

Read this:

http://dragonage.wik...:_Blood_Writing

Makes it very clear that if you have blood writing, you are considered an adult member of the clan.

-Polaris


It says nothing about you being part of the clan because you have blood writing.  It's no more than a coming of age event.
Feynriel's mother came back to the clan on her own volition, and as I can recall she left it the same.  Dalish take city elves all of the time, and that is a non sequitor, them taking her is them taking anyone who plans to join them.

Merrill is not considered part of her clan either.  They make this clear to you and her several times, and she breaks your entire point.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:53 .


#820
GavrielKay

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Harid wrote...
Proving them wrong is apparently bad motivation for doing good?


It could be considered pointless when every one who fails to prove them wrong ends up being held against the rest.  And for the most part, the reward for toeing the line is you get to spend the rest of your life toeing the line.

#821
Harid

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GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
Proving them wrong is apparently bad motivation for doing good?


It could be considered pointless when every one who fails to prove them wrong ends up being held against the rest.  And for the most part, the reward for toeing the line is you get to spend the rest of your life toeing the line.


Right now, in the US, black people are considered to be thugs and gangsters who lack proper use of the english language by default.  See youtube comments on anything involving black people of you do not believe me.

You are telling me that it's pointless to strive above that because people are going to think that anyway?

It's not pointless.  Every person that strives above disproves those that spit on you.  Because mages lack the grit to do that is on them, not on everyone else.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:57 .


#822
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Harid wrote...


Which is one of the many reasons why all Circles revolting simultanously is bad writing and I have stated such.



Well sort of, but I don't think it said it happened all at once. It could have been more a domino effect than all revolting at once. Depending on who Hawke sided with or what, you could have varied reactions. Templars in other Circles might hear news of what happened in Kirkwall, get a bit jumpy and decide to call annullments, especially if the atmosphere in their particular Circle has been tense  and on the edge for a while. or just as likely, the senior enchanters in a Circle get paranoid, start thinking that the templars might turn on them, no matter what they do or don't do, and get jumpy themselves and decide to go on the offensive. And this atmosphere and tension will likely spread to other Circles.

The bad writing here in this case, the epilogue, is more a case of vagueness and laziness to go into a more detailed account of events. But the larger scenario, in general, of mage and templar tensions escalating into open conflict, is not bad writing in itself. It was just ended up as crap writing because of a heavily disconnected plot and lack of meaningful interaction or knowledge.

#823
Harid

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


Which is one of the many reasons why all Circles revolting simultanously is bad writing and I have stated such.



Well sort of, but I don't think it said it happened all at once. It could have been more a domino effect than all revolting at once. Depending on who Hawke sided with or what, you could have varied reactions. Templars in other Circles might hear news of what happened in Kirkwall, get a bit jumpy and decide to call annullments, especially if the atmosphere in their particular Circle has been tense  and on the edge for a while. or just as likely, the senior enchanters in a Circle get paranoid, start thinking that the templars might turn on them, no matter what they do or don't do, and get jumpy themselves and decide to go on the offensive. And this atmosphere and tension will likely spread to other Circles.

The bad writing here in this case, the epilogue, is more a case of vagueness and laziness to go into a more detailed account of events. But the larger scenario, in general, of mage and templar tensions escalating into open conflict, is not bad writing in itself. It was just ended up as crap writing because of a heavily disconnected plot and lack of meaningful interaction or knowledge.


All of your ideas require too many things to occur perfectly for things to end up the way you claim.  The simple fact that templars would have had to bring news to the mages of each tower of Kirkwall is a big enough disconnect to me, as well as certain Templar Commanders, like Gregiour, anulling his circle for no reason.  He had full right to do so post Broken Circle, he doesn't do it then, why would he do it now.

You can't just say "All the circles revolted."  You need to go indepth on why and how, things that should have been shown to us in the first place.  So when people use this as a defense, it shows me that they are condoning that bad writing.  And I cannot get behind that.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:04 .


#824
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Harid wrote...


All of your ideas require too many things to occur perfectly for things to end up the way you claim.  The simple fact that templars would have had to bring news to the mages of each tower of Kirkwall is a big enough disconnect to me, as well as certain Templar Commanders, like Gregiour, anulling his circle for no reason.  He had full right to do so post Broken Circle, he doesn't do it then, why would he do it now.



Perfectly? I don't think so. You don't need to have templars spreading the news, either. What went on in Kirkwall is likely going to end up worldwide news before long, and people talk. Rumors spread. Mages of Circles do occasionally get out from their towers on Circle business.

it's not like what went on in Kirkwall happened in some top secret isolated research facility like Area 51. A Chantry went boom in front of thousands. A first enchanter and a knight commander are both dead. A Circle has either been nearly wiped out in an annulment, or mages have escaped and are running loose.

Every First Enchanter in Thedas and Every Knight Commander of the Circles are going to hear about the general events, as they didn't really occur in secret. And alot of times, tales get taller in the telling.

By the time all this happens, its about 7 years after Origins. Regardless of how you dealt with the Circle, it seems gregoire is either dead or retired by 9:40 Dragon. We don't know if Irving is around, either.

You can't just say "All the circles revolted."  You need to go indepth on why and how, things that should have been shown to us in the first place.  So when people use this as a defense, it shows me that they are condoning that bad writing.  And I cannot get behind that.



Of course they should go into detail. If you think speculation on an interesting aspect of an otherwise mediocre game, however, is condoning bad writing, that's your problem. The writing and execution was terrible, the concept was not. And I'm speculating on the concept.

#825
IanPolaris

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Harid wrote...


It says nothing about you being part of the clan because you have blood writing.  It's no more than a coming of age event.


It is only given by the clan eldars to members of the clan reaching adulthood.

Feynriel's mother came back to the clan on her own volition, and as I can recall she left it the same.  Dalish take city elves all of the time, and that is a non sequitor, them taking her is them taking anyone who plans to join them.


When she asks to return to the clan, Meretheri says that she never left.  She simply stayed away of her own choosing.

Merrill is not considered part of her clan either.  They make this clear to you and her several times, and she breaks your entire point.


Actually wrong.  Merrill is considered part of the clan by the Keeper and every time you talk to the Keeper, she invites to stay with her people.  Merrill is only kicked out in Act III after she kills Meretheri either by killing her own clan (in self defense) or by being ritualistically EXILED by the Chief Hunter (and acting keeper).

-Polaris