1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

To be fair Ian. I think it's made pretty clear by how others acted around her she was not a member of the clan even before she truly decided to leave. The only one that welcomes her or even attempts to be in good graces is the Keeper. The rest are the opposite. For example the extra banter when asking for the Iron Bark if you have Merrill with you? Where is it even shown she is a part of the clan at that point. They all despise her except the keeper. At least that is how it came across to me.

Modifié par Torax, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[LobselVith8]

Aneirin the Healer is Dalish, Harid. He wears Dalish clothing, he has blood writing on his face, and he's known among the members of Zathrian's clan. The clan members address that he likes to be out in the wilderness, but his existence proves that a clan can have more than two mages, especially since he was found when he was fourteen years old.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anerin flat out tells you that he isn't really one of the Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

Aneirin flat out tells Wynne that he doesn't feel like he belongs among the Circle or the Dalish, but since he's living among Zathrian's people, he is technically Dalish. Lanaya mentions that there were several others who competed to be Keeper, and that in time they came to trust her despite the fact that she was not born into the Dalish. Even Ariane mentions that an elven mage was welcomed into her clan, and that he brought an important book with him from the Circle. I don't see any proof that shows only two mages are permitted among the clan, especially when Aneirin has been with the clan since Wynne was a young woman (and he seemed to be her first apprentice).

[Torax]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anerin flat out tells you that he isn't really one of the Dalish.

It's why I classify him as basically an Isolationist. The Dalish see him as one of their own. But I think he feels like an outcast to both societies most likely. That it's the nature he feels one with. Keep in mind that even in the Dalish they are a society and act a certain way. Merrill claims to not really fit in with the others. That she was isolated growing up. While that could be specific to her clan. Could also be a part of that she uses spells and magic and a hunter has to draw a bow. This could mean that he felt alienated among the dalish. First they would see him as a flat ear and some may even have called him that from the start. Once they learned he was a mage they could have just kept a more social distance. He felt alienated in the circle as an Elf among humans it seemed. But most importantly he seems to have no interest in responsibility or power.

Modifié par Torax, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:46 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anerin flat out tells you that he isn't really one of the Dalish.

he may not think so, and probably because he was raised so much amongst humans to ever fully be able to feel like he could fit in. However, the Dalish seem to accept him as kin, regardless of how he chooses to live. It's not so different from say, a member of a family deciding for various reasons they needed to be away from their family. Given that there is no animosity or negative incident involved, the person would still be considered part of the family. I see no evidence that Anerin and the Dalish are hostile or rejecting of one another completely, or that there is any animosity between them.

The point is, the Dalish consider him one of their own, and react to him as such, even if he choses not to  live amongst them. They had at least accepted him, even if he could not accept their way of life.

[Torax]

The few you mention Anerin seem to just be of the "Anerin the healer?" As in that guy who heals in the forest? We only know one guy by that name. He was from the Shems to. So yeah that guy. It's basically the gist you get. Not that he's some guy they chat up a bit if they classify him as "the healer". Like the random guy who heals the hunters if they stop by with an injury so in return they bring him bread and water some times.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Torax wrote...

The few you mention Anerin seem to just be of the "Anerin the healer?" As in that guy who heals in the forest? We only know one guy by that name. He was from the Shems to. So yeah that guy. It's basically the gist you get. Not that he's some guy they chat up a bit if they classify him as "the healer". Like the random guy who heals the hunters if they stop by with an injury so in return they bring him bread and water some times.

They wouldn't have given him those nifty face tats if he was just some nice guy in the forest who helped them out. At one time, he was involved enough and lived enough amongst the Dalish that he was given the markings. It's not like the Dalish just has an open tattoo parlor for anyone around who wants to look fierce.

[Wulfram]

I don't know if Merrill is considered still a member of the clan, but Marethari does explicitly confirm her status as one of the Dalish even though she has chosen to live apart when she invokes Vir Thingummy to get the Aruilin'holm. So I'd expect Aneirin would count as Dalish too

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:06 .

[Harid]

You guys are moving goalposts from "part of the clan" to a general "Dalish."  Using sentiment and sayings as part of your argument.  I have only argued the former, never the latter.

And Anerin, as I can recall is wearing default leather armor #86397, not only does he not consider himself dalish but no one speaks of him as if he's anything other than a random forest healer.

This completely moved the thread in some random direction though.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
Right now, in the US, black people are considered to be thugs and gangsters who lack proper use of the english language by default.  See youtube comments on anything involving black people of you do not believe me.

In the US, everyone has equal rights under the law.  On paper at least.  Not to mention the difference in time frame.  Attitudes towards minorities in the US have improved, even in the last 100 years.  If in 1000 years people are still posting such crap via mind-link-up or whatever passes for social media then, it'll be a closer comparison.

In Thedas, mages are not equal, they are considered inhuman weapons and exploding kitties.  I think they should still strive to be good people and do good things, but the system doesn't reward them for it.  Anyway, all evidence points to mages in general being good people who control themselves.  You can't use Kirkwall during an RoA as evidence that all mages are corrupt.

[GavrielKay]

It doesn't really matter if Aneirin is part of the clan or not. The question was whether there are any Dalish mages who are equal in status to the general non-mage Dalish. The answer appears to be yes, as even if Aneirin isn't a proper clan member, the Halla keeper certainly is, and she's a mage as well.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
Right now, in the US, black people are considered to be thugs and gangsters who lack proper use of the english language by default.  See youtube comments on anything involving black people of you do not believe me.

In the US, everyone has equal rights under the law.  On paper at least.  Not to mention the difference in time frame.  Attitudes towards minorities in the US have improved, even in the last 100 years.  If in 1000 years people are still posting such crap via mind-link-up or whatever passes for social media then, it'll be a closer comparison.

In Thedas, mages are not equal, they are considered inhuman weapons and exploding kitties.  I think they should still strive to be good people and do good things, but the system doesn't reward them for it.  Anyway, all evidence points to mages in general being good people who control themselves.  You can't use Kirkwall during an RoA as evidence that all mages are corrupt.

Your first point isn't true. . .even on paper.  Look at the gay marriage debate, for instance.

And your second point, Mages aren't the same as people.  Mages will never be the same as people.  Mages are like mutants during the badly written Civil War right now.  Mages can actually do the things people say they can do.  Systems lighten when you don't prove yourself to prove the system correct, and this war is not proving the system incorrect, and nothing is around to supplant that system that says that what mages are doing is correct.

Why should I then believe that people will want to change that system?

My minority comparison was brought up to prove that even with 'freedom and equal rights,' it doesn't change the ideas of the people living in that society.  My point was that given that fact, how can you ask for mages to be completely free and without supervision, if people think the racist crap they do on youtube 47 years past the civil rights movement, how do you expect people to treat mages 5 years past 'mage freedom.'  Why would people treat mages well when they have no desire or reason to?

See, it's these serious thoughts that make mage freedom implausible, the amount that will probably go Blood Mage and Abomination to save themselves from angry neighbors would be astronomical.  And while sugar and happiness and things happening 'just because' may be good enough for you, I feel I deserve better than that kind of crap.  I need things like this worked around and explained.

Modifié par Harid, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:50 .

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

It doesn't really matter if Aneirin is part of the clan or not. The question was whether there are any Dalish mages who are equal in status to the general non-mage Dalish. The answer appears to be yes, as even if Aneirin isn't a proper clan member, the Halla keeper certainly is, and she's a mage as well.

She watches their Halla.  The Halla dictate where the Dalish move to.  It's a position of power.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

It doesn't really matter if Aneirin is part of the clan or not. The question was whether there are any Dalish mages who are equal in status to the general non-mage Dalish. The answer appears to be yes, as even if Aneirin isn't a proper clan member, the Halla keeper certainly is, and she's a mage as well.

She watches their Halla.  The Halla dictate where the Dalish move to.  It's a position of power.

And the guards protect them, and the hunters feed them.  It's a small clan, they all have meaningful roles to play.  There is no indication she has any governing authority.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

It doesn't really matter if Aneirin is part of the clan or not. The question was whether there are any Dalish mages who are equal in status to the general non-mage Dalish. The answer appears to be yes, as even if Aneirin isn't a proper clan member, the Halla keeper certainly is, and she's a mage as well.

She watches their Halla.  The Halla dictate where the Dalish move to.  It's a position of power.

And the guards protect them, and the hunters feed them.  It's a small clan, they all have meaningful roles to play.  There is no indication she has any governing authority.

Find me a mage hunter.  Or a Mage guard?  Rather than a position that clearly is protected by the rest of their clan, a position that dictates to me because of that fact that mages are treated differently than a "regular" dalish person.

[DKJaigen]

Harid wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


Which is one of the many reasons why all Circles revolting simultanously is bad writing and I have stated such.

Well sort of, but I don't think it said it happened all at once. It could have been more a domino effect than all revolting at once. Depending on who Hawke sided with or what, you could have varied reactions. Templars in other Circles might hear news of what happened in Kirkwall, get a bit jumpy and decide to call annullments, especially if the atmosphere in their particular Circle has been tense  and on the edge for a while. or just as likely, the senior enchanters in a Circle get paranoid, start thinking that the templars might turn on them, no matter what they do or don't do, and get jumpy themselves and decide to go on the offensive. And this atmosphere and tension will likely spread to other Circles.

The bad writing here in this case, the epilogue, is more a case of vagueness and laziness to go into a more detailed account of events. But the larger scenario, in general, of mage and templar tensions escalating into open conflict, is not bad writing in itself. It was just ended up as crap writing because of a heavily disconnected plot and lack of meaningful interaction or knowledge.

All of your ideas require too many things to occur perfectly for things to end up the way you claim.  The simple fact that templars would have had to bring news to the mages of each tower of Kirkwall is a big enough disconnect to me, as well as certain Templar Commanders, like Gregiour, anulling his circle for no reason.  He had full right to do so post Broken Circle, he doesn't do it then, why would he do it now.

You can't just say "All the circles revolted."  You need to go indepth on why and how, things that should have been shown to us in the first place.  So when people use this as a defense, it shows me that they are condoning that bad writing.  And I cannot get behind that.

Your not paying attention. If you have not noticed the circles have politics which currently keeps the circles in the domain of the chantry. i can tell you what merediths little ****ed up stunt did. it united the Aequitarians and the Libertarians and with it the lucrosians and the isolasionist and perhaps even the some of the loyalist switch sides. in short the circles get united and get **** done. where previously they where devided by politics. Also take note that the templars in kirkwall are on of the strongest templar army in thedas and yet they barely where able (or not at all depending on the side you choose) suppress the mages there. So i can easily assume that the templars in other circles will have their asses kicked

[Graspiloot]

David Gaider wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
How hard is it to simply answer them, instead of putting the same energy in avoiding them?

Because "Are all the mages insane and stupid or did you just write them badly? Will you continue to make them insane and stupid?" are not questions. They are opinions disguised as questions.

And there is no energy to be spent in not answering them (or trying to, as I have previously). I just happened to browse the forums and saw the thread and thought, "What? This again? Still?" And, yep, same bat-faces. I'm happy to answer legitimate, polite questions-- if I see them, and if I think they're interesting. Otherwise I shall feel free to mock. And then leave you to it.

At the risk of being mocked I do have 2 questions that I hope will interest you:

1. Why does Orsino give in to becoming a harvester?
From my pov it seems totally ooc of him to do this. Before that he was always trying to convince people mages aren't all that dangerous. Everything he does seems to be so that mages can have more freedom, because they wouldn't be as dangerous as the chantry says. And by his last action he seems to validate all of Merediths reasons for wanting him dead. 

2. Would it perhaps be possible in future DLC etc to also include more mages that stay sane and resist the temptation to become abominations? I mean in Origins there was really a grey area, because for example Connor shows how dangerous apostates can be (especially blood mages) and at the same time you have the Mages Collective and Morrigan who show that the circle might not be the only way. Orsino would have been perfect for this role I think. 

I think many people here are not so much dissappointed that this game tries to show an image that more emphasises how dangerous mages are, but more so that almost all of the mages you meet in the game who you get to know better(except bethany) seem to turn out to be blood mages. 

From the Dalish and the Tevinter I also had the understanding that it is not actually that easy for a demon to corrupt someone into becoming an abomination. Although I guess circle life doesn't really help. 

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
Your first point isn't true. . .even on paper.  Look at the gay marriage debate, for instance.

There's a lot fewer folks who are legally prevented from being equal than ever before.  I hope the rest gets taken care of soon. 

And your second point, Mages aren't the same as people.  Mages will never be the same as people.

Dangerous people are still people.  They are born from people, they can love, have children, die etc.  They are people with special abilities, not weapons who happen to look like people.

Why would people treat mages well when they have no desire or reason to?

Because laws begin to require them to treat mages as people?  Same way it always happens.  People get upset, and then they get used to it.  Not even starting because it will be difficult to finish just isn't right.

[Harid]

DKJaigen wrote...

Harid wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


Which is one of the many reasons why all Circles revolting simultanously is bad writing and I have stated such.

Well sort of, but I don't think it said it happened all at once. It could have been more a domino effect than all revolting at once. Depending on who Hawke sided with or what, you could have varied reactions. Templars in other Circles might hear news of what happened in Kirkwall, get a bit jumpy and decide to call annullments, especially if the atmosphere in their particular Circle has been tense  and on the edge for a while. or just as likely, the senior enchanters in a Circle get paranoid, start thinking that the templars might turn on them, no matter what they do or don't do, and get jumpy themselves and decide to go on the offensive. And this atmosphere and tension will likely spread to other Circles.

The bad writing here in this case, the epilogue, is more a case of vagueness and laziness to go into a more detailed account of events. But the larger scenario, in general, of mage and templar tensions escalating into open conflict, is not bad writing in itself. It was just ended up as crap writing because of a heavily disconnected plot and lack of meaningful interaction or knowledge.

All of your ideas require too many things to occur perfectly for things to end up the way you claim.  The simple fact that templars would have had to bring news to the mages of each tower of Kirkwall is a big enough disconnect to me, as well as certain Templar Commanders, like Gregiour, anulling his circle for no reason.  He had full right to do so post Broken Circle, he doesn't do it then, why would he do it now.

You can't just say "All the circles revolted."  You need to go indepth on why and how, things that should have been shown to us in the first place.  So when people use this as a defense, it shows me that they are condoning that bad writing.  And I cannot get behind that.

Your not paying attention. If you have not noticed the circles have politics which currently keeps the circles in the domain of the chantry. i can tell you what merediths little ****ed up stunt did. it united the Aequitarians and the Libertarians and with it the lucrosians and the isolasionist and perhaps even the some of the loyalist switch sides. in short the circles get united and get **** done. where previously they where devided by politics. Also take note that the templars in kirkwall are on of the strongest templar army in thedas and yet they barely where able (or not at all depending on the side you choose) suppress the mages there. So i can easily assume that the templars in other circles will have their asses kicked

Kirkwall isn't the strongest Templar army in Thedas, just the western side of Thedas.

The fraternites uniting didn't occur when Wynne was afraid of it happening.  It never occured in the 17 some odd other anullments in the last 900 years.  Why now?

And I find it implausible that mages united (when some of the fraternities have no desire to do so.)

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
Your first point isn't true. . .even on paper.  Look at the gay marriage debate, for instance.

There's a lot fewer folks who are legally prevented from being equal than ever before.  I hope the rest gets taken care of soon. 

And your second point, Mages aren't the same as people.  Mages will never be the same as people.

Dangerous people are still people.  They are born from people, they can love, have children, die etc.  They are people with special abilities, not weapons who happen to look like people.

Why would people treat mages well when they have no desire or reason to?

Because laws begin to require them to treat mages as people?  Same way it always happens.  People get upset, and then they get used to it.  Not even starting because it will be difficult to finish just isn't right.

Mages aren't just "Dangerous people."  A guy with a sword is a dangerous person.  They are something else altogther, by the measure of power one could exhibit over a regular person.

And you are talking about a place that's equivalent to what 1200 AD?   No forensics, no police force, no nothing to enforce laws.  How would those laws be enforced?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Harid wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Harid wrote...


Which is one of the many reasons why all Circles revolting simultanously is bad writing and I have stated such.

Well sort of, but I don't think it said it happened all at once. It could have been more a domino effect than all revolting at once. Depending on who Hawke sided with or what, you could have varied reactions. Templars in other Circles might hear news of what happened in Kirkwall, get a bit jumpy and decide to call annullments, especially if the atmosphere in their particular Circle has been tense  and on the edge for a while. or just as likely, the senior enchanters in a Circle get paranoid, start thinking that the templars might turn on them, no matter what they do or don't do, and get jumpy themselves and decide to go on the offensive. And this atmosphere and tension will likely spread to other Circles.

The bad writing here in this case, the epilogue, is more a case of vagueness and laziness to go into a more detailed account of events. But the larger scenario, in general, of mage and templar tensions escalating into open conflict, is not bad writing in itself. It was just ended up as crap writing because of a heavily disconnected plot and lack of meaningful interaction or knowledge.

All of your ideas require too many things to occur perfectly for things to end up the way you claim.  The simple fact that templars would have had to bring news to the mages of each tower of Kirkwall is a big enough disconnect to me, as well as certain Templar Commanders, like Gregiour, anulling his circle for no reason.  He had full right to do so post Broken Circle, he doesn't do it then, why would he do it now.

You can't just say "All the circles revolted."  You need to go indepth on why and how, things that should have been shown to us in the first place.  So when people use this as a defense, it shows me that they are condoning that bad writing.  And I cannot get behind that.

Your not paying attention. If you have not noticed the circles have politics which currently keeps the circles in the domain of the chantry. i can tell you what merediths little ****ed up stunt did. it united the Aequitarians and the Libertarians and with it the lucrosians and the isolasionist and perhaps even the some of the loyalist switch sides. in short the circles get united and get **** done. where previously they where devided by politics. Also take note that the templars in kirkwall are on of the strongest templar army in thedas and yet they barely where able (or not at all depending on the side you choose) suppress the mages there. So i can easily assume that the templars in other circles will have their asses kicked

Kirkwall isn't the strongest Templar army in Thedas, just the western side of Thedas.

The fraternites uniting didn't occur when Wynne was afraid of it happening.  It never occured in the 17 some odd other anullments in the last 900 years.  Why now?

And I find it implausible that mages united (when some of the fraternities have no desire to do so.)

The short answer: Times change.

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The short answer: Times change.

Justifying Bioware's crappy writing.  We deserve better.

And with that, back to doing something else.

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

You guys are moving goalposts from "part of the clan" to a general "Dalish."

Addressing that he's now Dalish and part of the clan goes hand in hand - people misconstrue the fact that the clan says he likes to be out in the wilderness with the idea that he's permanently sundered from the clan, which doesn't seem to be the case since several members of Zathrian's clan know him. Aneirin is wearing Dalish attire, has blood writing, and is living near the Dalish - indicating he fulfilled his wish to join his people (as Wynne said). Considering that he isn't the only mage acknowledged to have joined a clan - as Ariane (in Witch Hunt) addresses elven mages have fled the Circle for the clans, and this particular mage was the source of one of the tomes her clan had - I don't see why this is such an issue for some people.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know if Merrill is considered still a member of the clan, but Marethari does explicitly confirm her status as one of the Dalish even though she has chosen to live apart when she invokes Vir Thingummy to get the Aruilin'holm. So I'd expect Aneirin would count as Dalish too

Marethari says that Merrill could return if she wanted to (though her logic was horrible, especially in how she went about doing it).

Marethari also accepts Arianni when she asks if she can return.

They're still a part of the clans, even if they're not an actual person living with the clan.