1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know if Merrill is considered still a member of the clan, but Marethari does explicitly confirm her status as one of the Dalish even though she has chosen to live apart when she invokes Vir Thingummy to get the Aruilin'holm. So I'd expect Aneirin would count as Dalish too

Marethari says that Merrill could return if she wanted to (though her logic was horrible, especially in how she went about doing it).

Marethari also accepts Arianni when she asks if she can return.

They're still a part of the clans, even if they're not an actual person living with the clan.

I think she'd also accept a city elf to join if he/she wished.

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know if Merrill is considered still a member of the clan, but Marethari does explicitly confirm her status as one of the Dalish even though she has chosen to live apart when she invokes Vir Thingummy to get the Aruilin'holm. So I'd expect Aneirin would count as Dalish too

Marethari says that Merrill could return if she wanted to (though her logic was horrible, especially in how she went about doing it).

Marethari also accepts Arianni when she asks if she can return.

They're still a part of the clans, even if they're not an actual person living with the clan.

I think she'd also accept a city elf to join if he/she wished.

She would and she did (Pol), but the debate was about whether the Dalish elves are still Dalish elves and a part of the clan when they leave.

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know if Merrill is considered still a member of the clan, but Marethari does explicitly confirm her status as one of the Dalish even though she has chosen to live apart when she invokes Vir Thingummy to get the Aruilin'holm. So I'd expect Aneirin would count as Dalish too

Marethari says that Merrill could return if she wanted to (though her logic was horrible, especially in how she went about doing it).

Marethari also accepts Arianni when she asks if she can return.

They're still a part of the clans, even if they're not an actual person living with the clan.

I think she'd also accept a city elf to join if he/she wished.

Except she tells Arianni that she never left and staying away was entirely up to her.  Seems clear enough to me that was remained a member of the clan.

-Polaris

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think she'd also accept a city elf to join if he/she wished.

She would and she did (Pol), but the debate was about whether the Dalish elves are still Dalish elves and a part of the clan when they leave.

My point being that she might consider all elves to be welcome to be part of the Dalish. This does not mean they're considered Dalish in the interim.

This is more regarding Arianni  than Merril though.

Edit: And Marethari seems a mite more tolerant than most Dalish elves we encounter when it comes to flatears.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 02 septembre 2011 - 12:10 .

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think she'd also accept a city elf to join if he/she wished.

She would and she did (Pol), but the debate was about whether the Dalish elves are still Dalish elves and a part of the clan when they leave.

My point being that she might consider all elves to be welcome to be part of the Dalish. This does not mean they're considered Dalish in the interim.

This is more regarding Arianni  than Merril though.

Edit: And Marethari seems a mite more tolerant than most Dalish elves we encounter when it comes to flatears.

except Zathrian's clan accepted Aneirin, who was a City Elf from the Circle of Magi. Ariane's clan accepted another elven mage who defected from the Circle of Magi and took a book on the Eluvians.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

except Zathrian's clan accepted Aneirin, who was a City Elf from the Circle of Magi. Ariane's clan accepted another elven mage who defected from the Circle of Magi and took a book on the Eluvians.

Yes, they may join. Are they seen as part of the Dalish in the absence if they leave? I don't know if there are any formal rules. City elves may just be seen as a part of their people that has "lost it's way" so to speak depending on who you speak with. Other may call them traitors.

[dragonflight288]

Dalish Sentry: We are the last of the elvhen!
Varic: Hear that Hawke. Elves in the city, figments of your imagination.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Dalish Sentry: We are the last of the elvhen!
Varic: Hear that Hawke. Elves in the city, figments of your imagination.

I love that line

[dragonflight288]

So do I.

[Rifneno]

Wow this thread grew while my DSL was down...

[quote]phaonica wrote...

I was attempting to explore whether players find the conflict to seem black and white because of a perceived writing flaw (which could be improved upon in the future) or if it is black and white due to an absolute truth (in which case the choosing of the subject of conflict itself was flawed).[/quote]

Ahh. I misunderstood. Apologies, I was foolishly jumping to the conclusion that the question was about us being unreasonable.

[quote]Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

www.marcandangel.com/2008/02/23/what-is-morality-a-moral-fact-or-opinion/[/quote]

Relative morality is an idiotic concept generally spread by people who realize they can't defend their ethics using anything that makes sense. Using that line of thought, there simply is no such thing as ethics because it's all in our heads and more than likely our own subconscious justifications for the actions of ourselves and those we like or respect. So Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa were no more right or wrong than each other? BULL****. Right and wrong are in fact very real universal truths. The fact that we aren't sure what exactly those truths are does not make it any less so.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

I don't see signs of Cullen changing. He doesn't challenge Meredith's RoA even though he thinks (knows) that it doesn't meet the standard. He has a moral responsibility here and he fails badly.

That tells me that Act III Cullen is not much if any different than Act 1 "Mages aren't people" Cullen.

As for surviving a traumatic situation, shame of the Chatnry for putting him in a position of ANY responbility over mages (same goes for Meredith).[/quote]

AMEN.

I'll never understand all the pro-Cullen garbage. He followed an order of mass murder THAT HE KNEW TO BE UNJUST and I'm supposed to feel sorry for him?!

[quote]Hypothetical mob? The divine have marched on nations for alot less. I think you guys just avoid seeing how great a threat that it actually is.[/quote]

Good. I'm itching for a chance to paint the walls with her innards. But I find this quite an amusing double standard. When Anders destroys one building, it's terrorism and you shouldn't appease terrorists. When the Chantry is going to destroy a major city, woah, better get to appeasing! Destroying cities totally isn't terrorism!

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Most of the players on these boards support the mages. With some even supporting Anders act of terrorism which is absolutely insane.[/quote]
I lol'd.[/quote]

Me too.

[quote]Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yep blood magic is not evil. Kirkwall is only built ontop of a lake of blood from slave sacrifices to help the magisters gain some power.[/quote]

Guns in RL have killed many times more people than blood magic in Thedas. Yet cops all carry them. Weird... it's almost like they're a tool that can be used for good OR evil... but that can't be!

[quote]Mage supporters that support anders killing innocents in the chantry but do not think its alright for the templars to kill innocents. Thats just hilarious.[/quote]

What's hilarious is that people think Grand Wizard Elthina was innocent.

[quote]Because turning into a demon does not further the point that the circle mages are indeed practicing blood magic or capable of summoning a demon to aid the and just prove Merediths right?[/quote]

Only if you don't understand the concept of cause and effect.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

Let's see. Merrill's good. Alain's good. Grace seemed pretty fine before she was possessed. Hawke herself, potentially. Gascard is redeemable.[/quote]

Jowan is redeemable too, though the Jowan's Intent quest to show that is bugged. If you enable it in the PC version with the console or a mod, you see he ends up sticking his neck out to save random refugees. The question description is gold too, as apparently the Chantry had built up Jowan to be some Irenicus-level evil badass.

[quote]Harid wrote...

I'm done.[/quote]

It's amazing how many posts you made after this.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

So, you complain about the lore after not reading the lore, because... what, reading is hard?[/quote]

:lol::lol:

I don't think I could aptly describe my appreciation for that post without making it sound like I was making a pass. Well done.

[quote]*stuff about Merrill and the eluvian*[/quote]

Most of the reasons we know it can't end well are things she couldn't know. She wasn't with Tamlen when he saw what was possibly the Black City there, it's unlikely they even knew for sure that the darkspawn appeared in the area because the Dalish warden and Tamlen screwed with the mirror. She certainly couldn't know that Flemeth is some kind of omniscient higher power. Nor could she know what we found in Witch Hunt. Marethari never even seemed to give her an actual reason why it needs to be forgotten.

I'm not saying she was right to screw with the eluvian... I don't think she should have either, but she couldn't know just how badly it might end up like we do.

[quote]Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And some people do not view the mages as innocent. Deal with it.[/quote]

Translation: "I don't have a sodding clue what the word 'innocent' means!"

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters."
So said the first Divine. If the Chantry payed a bit more attention to that, we'd be in a much better position

Of course, blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry doesn't help that happen.[/quote]

No... but maybe blowing up the Orlesian Chantry will. *packs another sack of drakestone onto the cart* 

[TEWR]

Most of the reasons we know it can't end well are things she couldn't know. She wasn't with Tamlen when he saw what was possibly the Black City there, it's unlikely they even knew for sure that the darkspawn appeared in the area because the Dalish warden and Tamlen screwed with the mirror. She certainly couldn't know that Flemeth is some kind of omniscient higher power. Nor could she know what we found in Witch Hunt. Marethari never even seemed to give her an actual reason why it needs to be forgotten.

I'm not saying she was right to screw with the eluvian... I don't think she should have either, but she couldn't know just how badly it might end up like we do.

I doubt Tamlen saw the Black City when the city he saw was underground.

edit: It's possible what he saw was the ancient city of Arlathan. The Tevinters did cast it into the earth, and it would be really dark in the underground. Perhaps Arlathan and whatever people/things Tamlen saw are connected to the emergence of the Taint.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I doubt Tamlen saw the Black City when the city he saw was underground.

edit: It's possible what he saw was the ancient city of Arlathan. The Tevinters did cast it into the earth, and it would be really dark in the underground. Perhaps Arlathan and whatever people/things Tamlen saw are connected to the emergence of the Taint.

That's impossible.  Everyone knows that the only cities underground are dwarven.

[Urzon]

I doubt Tamlen saw the Black City when the city he saw was underground.

edit: It's possible what he saw was the ancient city of Arlathan. The Tevinters did cast it into the earth, and it would be really dark in the underground. Perhaps Arlathan and whatever people/things Tamlen saw are connected to the emergence of the Taint.

Maybe it could be both...?

When the Tevinter casted Arlathan into the earth maybe it landed into an absolutly huge lyrium deposit? With all that left over blood magic from the Tevinter spells, blood spilt from the dying elves, and the huge amount of lyrium, maybe if torn the Veil so badly the whole underground city is both in the real world and fade at once. The Taint could have maybe come to be in that huge pool of badness down there.

Modifié par Urzon, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I doubt Tamlen saw the Black City when the city he saw was underground.

edit: It's possible what he saw was the ancient city of Arlathan. The Tevinters did cast it into the earth, and it would be really dark in the underground. Perhaps Arlathan and whatever people/things Tamlen saw are connected to the emergence of the Taint.

That's impossible.  Everyone knows that the only cities underground are dwarven.

Well then you just admitted that the Primeval Thaig isn't Arlathan like you speculated

And I'm just saying what Tamlen said.

I can see... some kind of city, underground. And... there's a great blackness.

That's what he said. And blackness could just mean it's incredibly dark underground. I think Filament had a theory about Arlathan and the Black City, but I don't remember what it was.

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

I doubt Tamlen saw the Black City when the city he saw was underground.

edit: It's possible what he saw was the ancient city of Arlathan. The Tevinters did cast it into the earth, and it would be really dark in the underground. Perhaps Arlathan and whatever people/things Tamlen saw are connected to the emergence of the Taint.

Maybe it could be both...?

When the Tevinter casted Arlathan into the earth maybe it landed into an absolutly huge lyrium deposit? With all that left over blood magic from the Tevinter spells, blood spilt from the dying elves, and the huge amount of lyrium, maybe if torn the Veil so badly the whole underground city is both in the real world and fade at once. The Taint could have maybe come to be in that huge pool of badness do there.

I dunno. That really doesn't fully explain how the taint came to be. I'm convinced that the Primeval Thaig has more to do with the Taint's existence than anything else.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well then you just admitted that the Primeval Thaig isn't Arlathan like you speculated

That was the sarcastic reference, yes.

And I'm just saying what Tamlen said.

I can see... some kind of city, underground. And... there's a great blackness.

That's what he said. And blackness could just mean it's incredibly dark underground. I think Filament had a theory about Arlathan and the Black City, but I don't remember what it was.

If it was that dark, he couldn't see that there was a city there. And who refers to someplace very dark as "a great blackness?" It's certainly far from definite that he was talking about the Black City, but I refuse to believe "a great blackness" meant "it's really dark." Anyway I've been saying for a while that Arlathan (or rather, the Arlathan elves) are the source of the taint in some way. Three reasons. a) Elves were supposedly immortal, at least in that they didn't die of natural causes. Darkspawn fit that description. Elves all had magic. While most darkspawn are too stupid to figure it how to do it, it appears that the taint is a source that can be used for magic. c) Ancient Arlathan elves spent centuries at a time in the Fade. Which makes them the non-deity frontrunners for having built that city which tainted the magisters.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well then you just admitted that the Primeval Thaig isn't Arlathan like you speculated

That was the sarcastic reference, yes.

And I'm just saying what Tamlen said.

I can see... some kind of city, underground. And... there's a great blackness.

That's what he said. And blackness could just mean it's incredibly dark underground. I think Filament had a theory about Arlathan and the Black City, but I don't remember what it was.

If it was that dark, he couldn't see that there was a city there. And who refers to someplace very dark as "a great blackness?" It's certainly far from definite that he was talking about the Black City, but I refuse to believe "a great blackness" meant "it's really dark." Anyway I've been saying for a while that Arlathan (or rather, the Arlathan elves) are the source of the taint in some way. Three reasons. a) Elves were supposedly immortal, at least in that they didn't die of natural causes. Darkspawn fit that description. Elves all had magic. While most darkspawn are too stupid to figure it how to do it, it appears that the taint is a source that can be used for magic. c) Ancient Arlathan elves spent centuries at a time in the Fade. Which makes them the non-deity frontrunners for having built that city which tainted the magisters.

Perhaps the Primeval Thaig Dwarves and the Arlathan Elves are both the source of the taint? Or perhaps the people of the Primeval Thaig were the ancestors of every race in Thedas, and eventually through the passage of time four different races came to be (much like the Zunanma of Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn).

edit: also, people can see in the dark. How dark "a great blackness" is for Tamlen we don't know, so I take back my "incredibly dark". It was just.... dark.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:13 .

[DKJaigen]

Harid wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The short answer: Times change.

Justifying Bioware's crappy writing.  We deserve better.

And with that, back to doing something else.

So you  think that what happend in kirkwall  would not cause a political landslide? well to bad mate but its your own inability to understand human nature and not bad writing.

p.s. i said one of the strongest not the strongest.
p.s.s. its east btw not west

Modifié par DKJaigen, 02 septembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Perhaps the Primeval Thaig Dwarves and the Arlathan Elves are both the source of the taint? Or perhaps the people of the Primeval Thaig were the ancestors of every race in Thedas, and eventually through the passage of time four different races came to be (much like the Zunanma of Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn).

Maybe the morlocks too.

edit: also, people can see in the dark. How dark "a great blackness" is for Tamlen we don't know, so I take back my "incredibly dark". It was just.... dark.

Reword it however you like, nobody describes someplace without much light as "a great blackness." Especially something that pukes darkspawn.

[Urzon]

Perhaps the Primeval Thaig Dwarves and the Arlathan Elves are both the source of the taint? Or perhaps the people of the Primeval Thaig were the ancestors of every race in Thedas, and eventually through the passage of time four different races came to be (much like the Zunanma of Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn).

edit: also, people can see in the dark. How dark "a great blackness" is for Tamlen we don't know, so I take back my "incredibly dark". It was just.... dark.

Maybe the Arlanthan Elves and the dwarves of the Primeval Thaig were the ones that sealed the old gods away, a long long time ago. Were the old gods sealed underground before humans even came to Thedas? I can't remember, but if they were that means the easily predate the Maker religon by a long while. Because, i doubt the elves worshipped him in anyway, and the dwarves sure didn't.

So, the old gods were rampaging around Thedas, most likely killing a bunch of elves and dwarves. So, the elves and the dwarves from an alliance to take them down. The elves provide the magic and binding rituals, and the dwarves provide the lyrium and underground spaces for the prisons. They somehow get and bind the old gods in their prisons (either somehow luring them there or fighting them on the surface and drag them there). Then they procede to collapse the surrounding area, burying them so no one can stumble upon them. Thats why the darkspawn have to dig for them,

How it connects to the Thaig though...hmm.

Maybe the Idol what somehow used in the biding of them? Either as a focus for the ritual binding, or the anchor for the spell itself. Something with a deep enough connection to the old gods themselves, that it can mimic their song (or is it the other way around? Curiouser and curiouser...)

As for the Thaig itself, going by this theory, it could have been the meeting place for the elves and dwarves. They could have planned it there, and could have even did some of the spells there. Who knows.

[ParnAkuma]

Wulfram wrote...

"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters."
So said the first Divine. If the Chantry payed a bit more attention to that, we'd be in a much better position

Of course, blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry doesn't help that happen.

Rifneno wrote...

No... but maybe blowing up the Orlesian Chantry will. *packs another sack of drakestone onto the cart* 

Although I'm steering well clear of the larger "debate" amongst intransigents in this thread, I'll just say

NICE. haaa
I may have some sela petrae for your cart...just don't ask too many questions, and let me know when you're ready to leave.

Modifié par ParnAkuma, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[dragonflight288]

I've been reading all the theories that pop up across this and other threads, some are intriguing, and others make my eyes pop out (take that as you will, I'll probably laugh in any case)

But I do feel the need to quote Sherlock Holmes for a minute.

It is a grave mistake to form theories before gathering facts. Inevitably one will twist the fact to fit their theories instead of their theories to fit the facts.

[ParnAkuma]

i love the theories here, often because deduction plays such a small part in reaching most of them (mine included). I personally can't wait until my crackpot suspicions are vindicated and Anders is revealed as the living (or perhaps not-so-lively) incarnation of the martyred saint whose holy bones lay simmering in Kirkwall evil underneath the Chantry floors all those years.

[dragonflight288]

i love the theories here, often because deduction plays such a small part in reaching most of them (mine included). I personally can't wait until my crackpot suspicions are vindicated and Anders is revealed as the living (or perhaps not-so-lively) incarnation of the martyred saint whose holy bones lay simmering in Kirkwall evil underneath the Chantry floors all those years.

LOL

[Jestina]

I think every mage in Kirkwall betrayed my character or just went nutso. DA2 made me want to side with the templars and wipe out all mages which is pretty much what I was doing during the confusionfest of Act III.