1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Sinaxi]

Jestina wrote...

I think every mage in Kirkwall betrayed my character or just went nutso. DA2 made me want to side with the templars and wipe out all mages which is pretty much what I was doing during the confusionfest of Act III.

Cool story, bro.

[aries1001]

I think the OP misses the point here. It is clearly explained (at least this is they way I see it) that the mages only turn to blood magic as a last resort e.g. when they're cornered or when they're getting angry.
The mage you're fighting at the docks in the end game (the last straw) clearly shows this. It is also explained in the texts (codex entries) you find during the game that Meredith is tigtening the grip and that the mages then rebel, turning to blood magic. This sets what is known as an 'evil circle' in motion meaning Meredith feels the need to tighten the grip vene more; mages need to rebel even more - and so things happen they way they do. And clearly all mages are not turning into blood mages - Bethany, Hawke's sister (in the game) is not. And a few others as well.

I'm not quote sure what the deal is about Orsino, though. I mean, the guy seems reasonably intelligent, trying to avoid a confrontation. And then at some point, in the end game, he picks (not) the perfect time to have a mental breakdown and become a monster? This is so out of character for him....[His conversation actually reminded of 5 year old , not in what he says but how he says it - blood magic, bah, l'll give jer blood magic....] Then again, very out of character for him, Orsino, I mean...

The same could maybe be argues in the case about Grace turning into blood mage (abomination). However, in her case there seems to be an explanation for this. She does trust anyone that isn't a mage and who doesn't support her cause - freedom for mages....

The big problem here, as I see it, is that the conflict between Meridith and Orsino isn't really explained in detail or touched upon before Chapter 3. [There have been hints but nothing that let's you expect this deep conflict running through chapter 3...] However, Bioware has already said that maybe this was not a great as it should have been and that they'll work on it in future installments, meaning in dlc, expansion, and in DA3.

[Morroian]

aries1001 wrote...

I'm not quote sure what the deal is about Orsino, though. I mean, the guy seems reasonably intelligent, trying to avoid a confrontation. And then at some point, in the end game, he picks (not) the perfect time to have a mental breakdown and become a monster? This is so out of character for him....[His conversation actually reminded of 5 year old , not in what he says but how he says it - blood magic, bah, l'll give jer blood magic....] Then again, very out of character for him, Orsino, I mean...

He gave in to despair, the game didn't convey this at all well though. What they should have done was show the group about to be overwhelmed by templars and have Orsino resort to it then, killing most of the templars, similar to how Flemeth was introduced.

Of course what they really should have done was what they originally planned to do and have Hawke fight Orsino after he finds out about Orsino's involvlement with Quentin.

[Ryzaki]

Jestina wrote...

I think every mage in Kirkwall betrayed my character or just went nutso. DA2 made me want to side with the templars and wipe out all mages which is pretty much what I was doing during the confusionfest of Act III.

Pretty much how I felt most games. 

[Xilizhra]

Jestina wrote...

I think every mage in Kirkwall betrayed my character or just went nutso. DA2 made me want to side with the templars and wipe out all mages which is pretty much what I was doing during the confusionfest of Act III.

Clearly you deserved no loyalty in the first place. Enjoy your ultimate failure.

[ParnAkuma]

The only people who betrayed me were members of the Mage Underground, who never invited me to a single recruitment BBQ. I was looking forward to one of those.

Modifié par ParnAkuma, 03 septembre 2011 - 01:02 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

ParnAkuma wrote...

The only people who betrayed me were members of the Mage Underground, who never invited me to a single recruitment BBQ. I was looking forward to one of those.

Blame Meredith. They forgot she was a vegetarian. Heads rolled that day.

[Jestina]

It was mostly just from shoddy writing. If there was any choice in the matter, my character would have just left Kirkwall after mother passed away. There was no real logical reason for staying there, unless the character was seeking more than just living in a mansion...which never developed.

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I've been reading all the theories that pop up across this and other threads, some are intriguing, and others make my eyes pop out (take that as you will, I'll probably laugh in any case)

But I do feel the need to quote Sherlock Holmes for a minute.

It is a grave mistake to form theories before gathering facts. Inevitably one will twist the fact to fit their theories instead of their theories to fit the facts.

Good advice for a police detective.  Not so hot for fans of a fictional mystery where all the facts will be approx. 0.00000001 seconds before the answer is revealed.

Morroian wrote...

He gave in to despair, the game didn't convey this at all well though. What they should have done was show the group about to be overwhelmed by templars and have Orsino resort to it then, killing most of the templars, similar to how Flemeth was introduced.

Of course what they really should have done was what they originally planned to do and have Hawke fight Orsino after he finds out about Orsino's involvlement with Quentin.

"Gave in to despair" is the canon explanation for "they were too lazy to write a boss fight that made any sense." One does not create one of the most powerful and rare creatures on a whim in a moment of weakness. If it were that simple then they wouldn't be that rare. And society would never have happened because they'd have roflstomped humanity (er, elvanity? whatever) before anyone had invented a weapon more advanced than a club.

That said, I'd be extremely pissed if we were railroaded into attacking Orsino over Quentin. Most Hawkes might do it, but not all.

Xilizhra wrote...

Clearly you deserved no loyalty in the first place. Enjoy your ultimate failure.

This. Also, I love the logic. "Mages can't be trusted, they're always attacking innocents! Only non-mages are worthy of trust! I'll prove it by butchering a ton of innocents!" Pot, meet kettle.

ParnAkuma wrote...

The only people who betrayed me were members of the Mage Underground, who never invited me to a single recruitment BBQ. I was looking forward to one of those.

OMG, I know right?! Especially after all we'd heard, "the lyrium brownies are to die for to go abomination for!"

[ParnAkuma]

Alas, withholding the lyrium brownies from me was the real crime in Kirkwall.

[Ryzaki]

Jestina wrote...

It was mostly just from shoddy writing. If there was any choice in the matter, my character would have just left Kirkwall after mother passed away. There was no real logical reason for staying there, unless the character was seeking more than just living in a mansion...which never developed.

Agreed again. 

Especially if everyone in Hawke's family kicks the bucket. There's just no reason for my Hawke staying. The LI probably would've left with him/her and...yeah just no real reason to stay. 

[LobselVith8]

aries1001 wrote...

I think the OP misses the point here.

I didn't miss the point. My issue is that the mage antagonists are insane and stupid. The example you provided about the blood mage fighting a pro-mage Hawke at the docks doesn't make any sense in the context of the narrative - is he a pro-templar blood mage? Why is he apparently upset that Hawke is killing templars and protecting mages? It makes as much sense as Decimus, Grace, and Endgame Orsino, who are all ridiculous for a pro-mage Hawke.

You cite Grace, but she turns on an apostate, pro-mage Hawke, so I don't think it makes any more sense than the example of Orsino at the Gallows in "The Last Straw." Hawke can help Grace escape, he can aid the underground with Mistress Selby, he can publicly condemn Meredith, but Grace turns on him regardless.

I agree with you that the story isn't handled thoroughly. We never get the templars or the mages trying to persuade us to their side in the way that (in New Vegas) Mr. House, Caesar, and the NCR try to persuade the protagonist to siding with their respective faction. Most of the arguments for either side are found on the messageboards, which is a poor way to handle the dichotomy between the mages and the templars.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jestina wrote...

It was mostly just from shoddy writing. If there was any choice in the matter, my character would have just left Kirkwall after mother passed away. There was no real logical reason for staying there, unless the character was seeking more than just living in a mansion...which never developed.

Agreed again. 

Especially if everyone in Hawke's family kicks the bucket. There's just no reason for my Hawke staying. The LI probably would've left with him/her and...yeah just no real reason to stay. 

I still couldn't find any reason for mage Hawke to want to enter Kirkwall in the first place, let alone enslave themselves doing it.

[Ryzaki]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Jestina wrote...

It was mostly just from shoddy writing. If there was any choice in the matter, my character would have just left Kirkwall after mother passed away. There was no real logical reason for staying there, unless the character was seeking more than just living in a mansion...which never developed.

Agreed again. 

Especially if everyone in Hawke's family kicks the bucket. There's just no reason for my Hawke staying. The LI probably would've left with him/her and...yeah just no real reason to stay. 

I still couldn't find any reason for mage Hawke to want to enter Kirkwall in the first place, let alone enslave themselves doing it.

Prologue is when Hawke shows the most intelligence. He/she was like WAT when Leandra suggested it but sadly he/she got shot down. Should've knocked mom out and went somewhere else. <_<

[Melca36]

I roleplay that my Hawke stays in Kirkwall out of loyalty to Varric, Aveline, and his other friends.

She didn't have many friends in Lothering so she treasures the ones she has.

By the time the end comes though...she's so done with Kirkwall and laughs at the suggestion Seb makes over her becoming Viscountess. LOL

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hawke has been living for several years in Kirkwall, by the time All That Remains takes place. He has build a new life in Kirkwall, and that life does not die with his mother. There are many reasons to stay in Kirkwall after Hawke's mother dies.

[Melca36]

Jestina wrote...

I think every mage in Kirkwall betrayed my character or just went nutso. DA2 made me want to side with the templars and wipe out all mages which is pretty much what I was doing during the confusionfest of Act III.

Not me. I still sided with the mages.

I was done with the templars when I clicked on Alian and he mentioned that one templar sneaking into his room to RAPE him.

And  I was also done when going by the templar entrance and hearing the sounds of them being whipped.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You got proof it was a mage being whipped? It came from the Templar quarters... Could just as easily have been a Templar being disciplined... Doubt it. But since all we got to go on, is a sound file, I think people are concluding whatever they want.

[Ryzaki]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke has been living for several years in Kirkwall, by the time All That Remains takes place. He has build a new life in Kirkwall, and that life does not die with his mother. There are many reasons to stay in Kirkwall after Hawke's mother dies.

And depending on the Hawke the reasons to leave can vastly outnumber that. 

Especially if he/she is an apostate. 

[Melca36]

Ryzaki wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke has been living for several years in Kirkwall, by the time All That Remains takes place. He has build a new life in Kirkwall, and that life does not die with his mother. There are many reasons to stay in Kirkwall after Hawke's mother dies.

And depending on the Hawke the reasons to leave can vastly outnumber that. 

Especially if he/she is an apostate. 

An Apostate Viscount/Viscountess simply does not make sense for one thing. I can understand warrior or rouge but not viscountess.

[Melca36]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You got proof it was a mage being whipped? It came from the Templar quarters... Could just as easily have been a Templar being disciplined... Doubt it. But since all we got to go on, is a sound file, I think people are concluding whatever they want.

There is NOTHING in the LORE that says Templars use whipping for discipline.

Back in Origins..Alistair said he was sent to the kitchens to scrub.  There was whipping.

[Gervaise]

Melca 36 - That stuff about Alain being raped would be relevant if everyone got it every time they clicked on Alain. I have never got that, any more than I ever get the so called prophesy from Sandal no matter how many times I click on him. So the only reference to rape is when Anders says it has been known to occur - which to be honest could be true of any organisation in Kirkwall. Do mages never rape other mages? What about mind rape - which is what experienced blood mages do?
Some templars do abuse their power but Meredith has never been shown to condone rape, whipping or even making mages Tranquil against their will. Her argument for keeping a tight grip on things is that Kirkwall is crawling with blood mages and generally all the mages we come across, particularly those in the mage underground, tend to bear out that view. Even Anders admits that he has been arguing with them that they shouldn't do it but of course excuses it on the grounds they are desperate.
I agree with the OP that there seems to be rather an excessive number of crazy, illogical mages in the game. Orsino was like a breath of fresh air at the end of Act 2. Caring, brave, sensible - concerned for the non mage hostages. I was quite happy to stand up for his rights and sided with the mages at the end because even if every other mage in the Circle was corrupt, I wanted to stand by him. Then the writers went and did that to him. I seriously hope they redress the balance in DLC or DA3 and introduce a few ex Circle mages that do not resort to blood magic and you can really respect.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ryzaki wrote...


Prologue is when Hawke shows the most intelligence. He/she was like WAT when Leandra suggested it but sadly he/she got shot down. Should've knocked mom out and went somewhere else. <_<

Yes. I really wanted to knock her out, hand her over the carver with 2/3 of the family savings, and said "Say hi to uncle Gammy for me when you get there. I'll write you from Llomeryn." Or, if Leandra insisted and that blow over the head Hawke got from the genlock addled her wits enough to agree to go to Kirkwall, as soon as I landed at the Gallows, found out uncle Gammy blew the family inheritance, and wanted me and Carver to enslave ourselves to some questionable characters just so I could live in his smelly hovel in a city full of mage-hating templars, I'd have said "Right. Carver. Mom. Have fun, there's a ship getting ready to leave, and at this point, I don't care where it goes, just anywhere but here."

I think when I play my canon Hawke, who is going to be a mage, I'm going to have to play them as being somewhat brazen with a touch of a death wish and an adrenaline junkie's urge not just to tempt fate, but to repeatedly pimp cane it with reckless abandon.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke has been living for several years in Kirkwall, by the time All That Remains takes place. He has build a new life in Kirkwall, and that life does not die with his mother. There are many reasons to stay in Kirkwall after Hawke's mother dies.

It still makes no sense for a mage to stay, let alone even agreed to get into Kirkwall in the first place.

Mage Hawke has perhaps the least reason of all to stay. Both siblings are either dead, or Carver is off with the Wardens or working for the enemy, so to speak. Act 2 Meredith has still been getting crazier and more oppresive, the Qunari, who mutilate and literall collar their mages are getting pissed off and ready to take over the place. And Hawke is a mage. An apostate mage from a family of apostates. All the money and "life" Hawke has built up won't save him or her if Meredith or someone else decided to enforce the law/the order dictates.

The LI#s don't really have any ties to Kirkwall besides Hawke. Not any permanent/unchanging ties. None of them are from there, and none of them have any particular connection to the place.

My point being that I found no compelling reason for a mage Hawke to override the most basic instinct of all: self-preservation. There certainly could be reasons to stay, but none I found compelling enough in context, at least.