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[EmperorSahlertz]

Melca36 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You got proof it was a mage being whipped? It came from the Templar quarters... Could just as easily have been a Templar being disciplined... Doubt it. But since all we got to go on, is a sound file, I think people are concluding whatever they want.

There is NOTHING in the LORE that says Templars use whipping for discipline.

Back in Origins..Alistair said he was sent to the kitchens to scrub.  There was whipping.

There is evidence that whipping is used for disciplining. That it happens to mages, and that we hear a mage referring to it, does in no possible way exclude all others from ever being whipped.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke has been living for several years in Kirkwall, by the time All That Remains takes place. He has build a new life in Kirkwall, and that life does not die with his mother. There are many reasons to stay in Kirkwall after Hawke's mother dies.

It is certianly possible to role play it that way.  I always felt that it was a bit silly to stay in the place that housed mostly lousy memories though.  They really needed to work more on the motivation to stay in Kirkwall in two places:  upon first arrival and after Leandra's death.

Mom doesn't win a lot of points for wanting her two children to indenture themselves so that she can live in a hovel with her brother who lost the family home to slavers.  It was just too much story stacked against you and nothing but whiny "I don't wanna run anymoe" drivel asking you to stay.

After Leandra dies, it seems that Kirkwall should hold more lousy memories than good.  I'd mothball the family home and see some of the world before deciding whether to stick around.  Perhaps if they'd actually shown some of the life that Hawke had supposedly built in Kirkwall rather than have her sleep for 3 years at a time ti would have worked better.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 03 septembre 2011 - 05:17 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't know wether or not Kirkwall only holds bad memories for Hawke, we only play as Hawke for a few months at a time, in a period which lasts 10 years. We only play as Hawke during the hard times, we never experience the good times.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't know wether or not Kirkwall only holds bad memories for Hawke, we only play as Hawke for a few months at a time, in a period which lasts 10 years. We only play as Hawke during the hard times, we never experience the good times.

Which is why I said they needed to provide more motivation.  What we actually see and do doesn't give Hawke much reason to stick around.

[Xilizhra]

My point being that I found no compelling reason for a mage Hawke to override the most basic instinct of all: self-preservation. There certainly could be reasons to stay, but none I found compelling enough in context, at least.

Well, mine was simply that I didn't want to just abandon the people of Kirkwall, especially the Circle mages, to their doom if I could prevent it.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

My point being that I found no compelling reason for a mage Hawke to override the most basic instinct of all: self-preservation. There certainly could be reasons to stay, but none I found compelling enough in context, at least.

Well, mine was simply that I didn't want to just abandon the people of Kirkwall, especially the Circle mages, to their doom if I could prevent it.

But you don't prevent anything. Orsino still dies because he's a moron and inocent mages and children still die in other parts of the Gallows.

[KnightofPhoenix]

You don't try to prevent anything, that's how the game is. Hawke simply reacts only when it's already too late.

[hoorayforicecream]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is evidence that whipping is used for disciplining. That it happens to mages, and that we hear a mage referring to it, does in no possible way exclude all others from ever being whipped.

Whipping is pretty common as a punishment throughout our history. The Spartans whipped each other as a test for manhood. Jewish law allows up to 40 strokes with a whip as a punishment. Even in the 18th and 19th centuries, many european armies used flogging as a common punishment for soldiers - one soldier got 700 lashes for stealing a beehive during the Napoleonic Wars. Henry VIII even passed a law in 1530 (the Whipping Act) to tie vagrants up in a public place and whip them till bloody.

So... within context of a fantasy-medieval style setting, whipping really isn't as heinous as it seems today. Sure, it sucks for the person getting whipped, but so does getting your hand cut off, branded, beaten, etc. or any of a number of other common punishments.

[Jackalope]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You got proof it was a mage being whipped? It came from the Templar quarters... Could just as easily have been a Templar being disciplined... Doubt it. But since all we got to go on, is a sound file, I think people are concluding whatever they want.

If only Izzy had made some sort of joke about spankings at that point...

[Wulfram]

There are some pretty solid reasons to stay in Kirkwall, though they won't apply to every Hawke. Nice house, connections, friends, family, status. During Act 2, Hawke might feel a sense of obligation as seemingly the only person who can hold the Qunari situation together. After Act 2, being Champion is a pretty good gig, and if Hawke's a mage it's also an almost unique opportunity to live free and openly.

Though the story does hang together a lot better if you give Hawke an actual affection for Kirkwall. Unfortunately, Bioware seem to have gone out of their way to make it a rather unattractive place.

[Jestina]

If the protagonist felt any obligation, something would have been done...instead of sitting around for three years doing zero. The most popular person in the city couldn't rally enough support to gain leadership...in three years? Just awful story. The title Champion meant nothing, it was hollow. Hawke apparently never got any power whatsoever.

[Graspiloot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You don't try to prevent anything, that's how the game is. Hawke simply reacts only when it's already too late.

Not sure why this is always highlighted. In most other games (including DAO) the main character also reacts to the events in the game. In fact I dont think I know any pro-active characters in any videogame. 

Maybe this hatred against Hawke comes from the fact that he lets this murder walk, and let him murder his mother. But yeah, for the rest he really does little else different from other games. 

[IanPolaris]

Graspiloot wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You don't try to prevent anything, that's how the game is. Hawke simply reacts only when it's already too late.

Not sure why this is always highlighted. In most other games (including DAO) the main character also reacts to the events in the game. In fact I dont think I know any pro-active characters in any videogame. 

Maybe this hatred against Hawke comes from the fact that he lets this murder walk, and let him murder his mother. But yeah, for the rest he really does little else different from other games. 

That's just not true.  For example in DAO, if you think Anora betrayed you in "Rescue the Queen", you can choose to do something or not about it, and the dialog will follow.....even to the point of a different choice for ruler of Fereldan.  The same applies to most of the other choices.  The overall result may be the same (killing the Archdemon) but within that the Warden is very proactive.

Hawke...not so much.

-Polaris

[Costin_Razvan]

That's just not true. For example in DAO, if you think Anora betrayed you in "Rescue the Queen", you can choose to do something or not about it, and the dialog will follow.....even to the point of a different choice for ruler of Fereldan. The same applies to most of the other choices. The overall result may be the same (killing the Archdemon) but within that the Warden is very proactive.

Not that I disagree but the Warden is also very reactive when dealing with the Blight as a whole. Oh big evil comes then Alistair goes we need to assemble this army ( don't recall if the Warden can give that idea himself or herself ). however yes there are quite a few proactive choices you can make.

Also Awakening, while it had the premise of a reactive main plot it allowed you to be very proactive when it came to everything else except dealing with the beginning and ending parts of the game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Graspiloot wrote...
Not sure why this is always highlighted. In most other games (including DAO) the main character also reacts to the events in the game. In fact I dont think I know any pro-active characters in any videogame. 

Maybe this hatred against Hawke comes from the fact that he lets this murder walk, and let him murder his mother. But yeah, for the rest he really does little else different from other games.

Mike Thorton is in many ways, pro-active. He can come out with a Xanatos roulette of epic proportions out of his own volition.

But I am not expecting DA2 to have that. It's true the Warden was in large part, reactive. But Origins had a number of opportunities where the Warden could be pro-active. Him making himself chancellor or Prince-consort is proactive. Backstabbing Anora or Eamon is pro-active. Him recruiting the werewolves is entirely pro-active. Him suggesting a circle in Orzammar is pro-active.  Double playing Bhelen and Harrowmont is pro-active, as well as having the papers Vartag gave checked. Convicing Kardol to join you is pro-active...etc etc. 

It does not make the Warden not reactive in general (and you are right, most PCs are ultimately reactive), but these moments of pro-activity give the impression, even if illusionary, that the Warden can use his brain. Hawke has no such opportunities.

Hawke's inability to save his mother, even if written poorly, is something I do not mind, in fact I approve of it. It's rather everything else that he does or rather does not do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 septembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

My point being that I found no compelling reason for a mage Hawke to override the most basic instinct of all: self-preservation. There certainly could be reasons to stay, but none I found compelling enough in context, at least.

Well, mine was simply that I didn't want to just abandon the people of Kirkwall, especially the Circle mages, to their doom if I could prevent it.

But you don't prevent anything. Orsino still dies because he's a moron and inocent mages and children still die in other parts of the Gallows.

True, the templars still get to undertake a fair bit of mass murder. However, I stop everything I can, which is more than the alternative.

[Graspiloot]

Yeah you are right that the Warden had enough pro-active moments to satisfy a sort of illusion of pro-activeness, but how he reacts to the blight is reactive. Allistair tells you to gather an army and find allies for it, etc.

But yeah you can have some pro-active choices. Hawke doesn't have this, but there were chances to (the most famous one is with the murder), but they weren't written in the story and in my pov not well thought through.
I think the biggest problem is that Hawke doesn't seem to do all that much in the pauses. We are told that Hawke is getting rich after the deeproads expedition and that he is really influential after becoming the champion, but we aren't actually shown anything to make us believe this (similary in DAO when they tell us we have an army, but I find myself wondering where it came from, but that has been mentioned in previous threads).

Coming back actually to the mage/templar conflict. This whole conflict turns way out of hand because Hawke lets it, I mean I dont hate Hawke, but in that 3 year pause, why doesn't he do something? I mean the pauses are a good idea in principle, but don't let the game play as if there were no pauses (with even the exact same merchants in exactly the same place)! 

Modifié par Graspiloot, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...
Not sure why this is always highlighted. In most other games (including DAO) the main character also reacts to the events in the game. In fact I dont think I know any pro-active characters in any videogame. 

Maybe this hatred against Hawke comes from the fact that he lets this murder walk, and let him murder his mother. But yeah, for the rest he really does little else different from other games.

Mike Thorton is in many ways, pro-active. He can come out with a Xanatos roulette of epic proportions out of his own volition.

But I am not expecting DA2 to have that. It's true the Warden was in large part, reactive. But Origins had a number of opportunities where the Warden could be pro-active. Him making himself chancellor or Prince-consort is proactive. Backstabbing Anora or Eamon is pro-active. Him recruiting the werewolves is entirely pro-active. Him suggesting a circle in Orzammar is pro-active.  Double playing Bhelen and Harrowmont is pro-active, as well as having the papers Vartag gave checked. Convicing Kardol to join you is pro-active...etc etc. 

It does not make the Warden not reactive in general (and you are right, most PCs are ultimately reactive), but these moments of pro-activity give the impression, even if illusionary, that the Warden can use his brain. Hawke has no such opportunities.

Hawke's inability to save his mother, even if written poorly, is something I do not mind, in fact I approve of it. It's rather everything else that he does or rather does not do.

Agreed. DAII has very, very few moments of Hawke being proactive, usually in side quests or companion quests. And they don't amount to anything in the game either.

I've stated before that what the game should've done is reactive at first, proactive later on.

Hawke had more than enough information after "The First Sacrifice" to have him and the City Guard and Templars initiate an investigation either in Act 1 or before ATR in Act 2. In TFS, he's being reactive to what's-his-name's plea. But afterwards he could be pro-active.

Sadly, this was never to be.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 septembre 2011 - 02:44 .

[Anyroad2]

Hawke is just as pro-active as the Warden is / can be.

As I've posted before...the Warden reacts to everything in the game.

The Warden reacts to their Origin story. The Warden reacts to the orders given by Duncan. The Warden reacts to Loghains betrayal. The Warden is forced into stopping the Blight (you cant just leave). The Warden has to crown a King for Orzimmar in order to get Dwarf allies (which must be done). The Warden reacts to the situation with the Dalish. The Warden reacts to the trouble at the Circle of Magi. The Warden reacts to Connors possession. Ect.

Any choices the Warden makes along the way have very little affect on the game. In the end you either get different units in Denirim, slight variants of the ending (seeing as US is non-cannon) or you get to do a few extra quests.

Hawke is the same way.

[GavrielKay]

The Warden's story was big enough and rich enough that there were many places the player could make decisions that felt like proper role playing. Even if the "save the world" ending was going to happen no matter what, you can take that path with a character in mind and almost always have choices available that suit you.

Hawke's story was much more linear and smaller in general. There weren't nearly as many decisions, so the fact that they also had little affect on the game was a double slap in the face.

When you are telling a "save the world" story, there are a lot of things that are sort of taken care of. Even an evil character probably wants to save the world, so it'll be around to be evil in. There's a fair bit of built-in motivation with that story.

Hawke's story had no built in motive. Therefore, the story itself needed to be told better to keep the player involved and allow role playing.

[Gervaise]

I think most of the complaints really are connected to how Act 3 is dealt with.  Okay it would have been nice to save mother and the magically disappearing/reappearing trapdoor in the Foundary is stretching credibility but essentially we are working to various assumptions in Act 2, such as that the majority of mages want out of the Gallows, they are being ill treated and a great deal of illegality is going on in there and therefore the aims of the Circle Mages are broadly in line with those of the Mage Underground/Anders.    Then at the end of Act 2 we are introduced to Orsino and suddenly we have a third party to consider - Circle Mages who want the Circle to work as it ought.   Then Sister Nightingale appears and we are told that what is happening in Kirkwall could have profound effect on the rest of Thedas - that a bunch of mages known as the resolutionists are in fact behind much of what is going on.  If you do what no sane person would normally and take Anders with you to meet with Meredith, by choosing the right dialogue options, you even get to discover at this early stage the contempt he feels for Circle Mages - Bethany is a dog on a leash, he is a wolf (strange metaphor for him to use unless he wants us to see him as wild and savage).     Not only that but whilst we are told Meredith is meant to be going steadily insane and is being too harsh, actually no conversation with her conveys this fact.  The only person that comes across as going steadily insane is Anders and you can do nothing about it.   In fact everyone who could do something about the situation does nothing.  It is like everyone, including Hawke, has been cursed with inaction.  And when you have been told this will not just impact on Kirkwall but the whole of Thedas, it is intensely frustrating.  Then finally at the end you are shoe horned into taking one side or the other, when in fact there are 3 sides - but for some reason supporting the Circle Mages because they have done nothing wrong is equivalent to supporting Anders/resolutionists and total mage freedom and nowhere is this discrepancy acknowledged.  So the world descends into chaos and you are left feeling no sense of achievement at all - small wonder you disappear without trace.
The Warden Saved the World and Hawke Destroys it through inaction.  (Feel better for getting that off my chest)

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But I am not expecting DA2 to have that. It's true the Warden was in large part, reactive. But Origins had a number of opportunities where the Warden could be pro-active. Him making himself chancellor or Prince-consort is proactive. Backstabbing Anora or Eamon is pro-active. Him recruiting the werewolves is entirely pro-active. Him suggesting a circle in Orzammar is pro-active.  Double playing Bhelen and Harrowmont is pro-active, as well as having the papers Vartag gave checked. Convicing Kardol to join you is pro-active...etc etc. 

It does not make the Warden not reactive in general (and you are right, most PCs are ultimately reactive), but these moments of pro-activity give the impression, even if illusionary, that the Warden can use his brain. Hawke has no such opportunities.

Hawke's inability to save his mother, even if written poorly, is something I do not mind, in fact I approve of it. It's rather everything else that he does or rather does not do.

This. Perfectly. That is why I could get into playing the Warden than I could Hawke. Sure, in any video game, you're going to be somewhat reactive to things such as overall plot. But its being able to play a character that can interact with the plot intelligently that made it better. Even the illusion of having a brain. Make it look like the character can at least appear to think ahead, and make small but proactive moves towards other things not necessarily related to matters immediately at hand.

Hell, one example of this is when Zevran tries to kill you the first time you meet him. You can try and get him to turn and go assassinate Loghain for you. He always refuses, true, and this is fine. It's the fact that at least, the Warden was given the option to at least suggest it, which gives the impression that the Warden can at least appear to be resourceful and calculating. Even if it will go nowhere.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Him suggesting a circle in Orzammar is pro-active.

When can you do that?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't recall he ever can.

[Dave of Canada]

Orzammar Circle is made if you send Dagna to the Circle, though you'd have no idea it would be formed and it's a random consequence of your decisions.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 septembre 2011 - 03:45 .