1253 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I recall suggesting the idea to Irving (he does it anyways), but I might be misremembering.

In any case, sidequests like that were good imo. No killing involved.

[TobiTobsen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Orzammar Circle is made if you send Dagna to the Circle, though you'd have no idea it would be formed and it's a random consequence of your decisions.

I think you also have to ignore Brother Burkel's plan of founding a chantry in Orzammar. Otherwise you'll always get the epilogue where he is killed and the Chantry wants to start a Exalted March for that.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 septembre 2011 - 05:11 .

[TEWR]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Orzammar Circle is made if you send Dagna to the Circle, though you'd have no idea it would be formed and it's a random consequence of your decisions.

I think you also have to ignore Brother Burkel's plan of founding a chantry in Orzammar. Otherwise you'll always get the epilogue where he is killed and the Chantry wants to start a Exalted March for that.

I like to think the Circle is still established, but under Chantry authority. After Burkel is slain, the Chantry is abolished and the Circle falls under Orzammar jurisdiction.

Nothing in the epilogue to suggest this, but it does make sense given how mages would like to be near lyrium. And it would make the Divine's contemplation for an Exalted March in the epilogue make more sense.

[Shadow Fox]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Orzammar Circle is made if you send Dagna to the Circle, though you'd have no idea it would be formed and it's a random consequence of your decisions.

so dumb luck is considered pro active by some folks then?

[esper]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Orzammar Circle is made if you send Dagna to the Circle, though you'd have no idea it would be formed and it's a random consequence of your decisions.

I think you also have to ignore Brother Burkel's plan of founding a chantry in Orzammar. Otherwise you'll always get the epilogue where he is killed and the Chantry wants to start a Exalted March for that.

You must also not ask for the mage boon, because for some reason that blocks a circle being made in Orzammar. So it is a little like dumb luck.

[LobselVith8]

The reason the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't arise if The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence is because it seems the creators didn't originally plan for the Chantry to say no, since First Enchanter Irving seems to regard it as a given that the boon provided by the new ruler of Ferelden will happen. That seems to be why the independent Circle of Orzammar is excluded when The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be free from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

As for Brother Burkel, I don't imagine an independent Circle of Orzammar would arise with the Orzammar Chantry because Burkel seems to share the Chantry of Andraste view on things, which would likely include the mages. An independent Circle of Orzammar makes sense when none of the denizens of Orzammar have any preconceived notions about magic or mages, and Duncan makes note of how powerful a mage can be against large groups of darkspawn. I doubt Burkel would allow mages to be free in Orzammar, and would likely use his influence among the Andrastian dwarves to put a stop to it at any cost. I doubt the mages would see Orzammar as a safe haven if the Chantry is getting a foothold in the dwarves society.

[Tainan7509]

This entire thread is like a circle for pro-mage players and pro-templars players in the real life.
Just saying..

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I recall suggesting the idea to Irving (he does it anyways), but I might be misremembering.

In any case, sidequests like that were good imo. No killing involved.

You just suggest to Irving to allow Dagna to come live at the Circle. However, Irving suggests it would be a great opportunity for mages and dwarves to learn from one another. Sort of a cultural exchange. Which of course, ends up leading to mages deciding Orzammar would be a great place for an independant circle.

Regardless, you are right. It was an interesting quest, regardless. No killing involved, and hit had alot of potential for RPing various reasons to do so. Another quest I liked was the lyrium smuggling quest as well. That had tons of potential too. I would have liked more quests like this in DA2.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

esper wrote...

You must also not ask for the mage boon, because for some reason that blocks a circle being made in Orzammar. So it is a little like dumb luck.

Not totally. My mage didn't ask for the boon because she knew it was pointless and futile to request Circle independance while the Chantry was still around and in control.

regardless, its not completely dumb luck. It's consequence of an action that while probably unplanned, still held enough potential and hint for something interesting to come of it.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The reason the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't arise if The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence is because it seems the creators didn't originally plan for the Chantry to say no, since First Enchanter Irving seems to regard it as a given that the boon provided by the new ruler of Ferelden will happen. That seems to be why the independent Circle of Orzammar is excluded when The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be free from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

As for Brother Burkel, I don't imagine an independent Circle of Orzammar would arise with the Orzammar Chantry because Burkel seems to share the Chantry of Andraste view on things, which would likely include the mages. An independent Circle of Orzammar makes sense when none of the denizens of Orzammar have any preconceived notions about magic or mages, and Duncan makes note of how powerful a mage can be against large groups of darkspawn. I doubt Burkel would allow mages to be free in Orzammar, and would likely use his influence among the Andrastian dwarves to put a stop to it at any cost. I doubt the mages would see Orzammar as a safe haven if the Chantry is getting a foothold in the dwarves society.

With Burkel, it wouldn't be an independent Circle at first. It would be a Chantry controlled Circle, and then when Burkel is slain the Chantry institution is abolished and cast out from Orzammar society, along with any converts that it may have had (of which the epilogue says "many", but they're not canon remember?). Then the Circle falls under Orzammar jurisdiction and becomes an independent Circle.

With all the converted Dwarves cast out along with the Chantry, Orzammar is free to use the mages how they see fit, and the mages would be happy.

Regardless, it doesn't matter since nothing suggests it happens. Though I never help spread the Chantry's filth. Not at the cost of another belief system being destroyed. I'm such a heathen

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


With all the converted Dwarves cast out along with the Chantry, Orzammar is free to use the mages how they see fit, and the mages would be happy.

Regardless, it doesn't matter since nothing suggests it happens. Though I never help spread the Chantry's filth. Not at the cost of another belief system being destroyed. I'm such a heathen

The only time I ever helped Burkel was when I was playing a casteless dwarf who had come to respect, and eventually convert to, Andrastism. That itself was an interesting playthrough. But that was the only time I got a Chantry opened in Orzammar. Everyone else either ignored Burkel, or deliberately failed his quest so he'd shut up about it and move on.

I would never, however, in a canon playthrough, ruin the last gloriously Chant-free civilization in Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'd wager that Seheron and Par Vollen is distinctly Chant free aswell...

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd wager that Seheron and Par Vollen is distinctly Chant free aswell...

I'm not sure the Chantry isn't worse than the Qun actually.  At least the Qun are far less hypocritical.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

You think the Dwarven Caste system is better?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You think the Dwarven Caste system is better?

Not by much, but a little. Given that Bhelen is picked in damned near all my playthroughs, the Caste system in Orzammar changes. And better yet, even before the election, you get to talk to dwarves who at least realize the system is dragging them down, and change is needed. Unlike the surface, where everyone except mages and elves seem to be oblivous to fundemental problems and need for drastic changes.

The dwarves, despite their fundemental social problems, are still more practical and pragmatic than the surface nations are. I think one reason for this, is their eternal war without hope of end with the darkspawn keeps them more in touch with reality than the surface nations. I see more hope for meaningful progress and change with the dwarves than I do the surface idiots, their backwards politics, and their unworkable mess of idiotic superstition, idealism, and poorly placed practicality.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm.. The surface have idiotic politics? Compared to Dwarven society? You sure you aren't horribly biased against the surface? Cause if you can't see how horribly ineffective Dwarven politics are, and how much of their own worst enemy they are, then you aren't looking hard enough.

[Melca36]

Wasn't once said that surface dwarves would eventually outnumber the dwarves in Orzamar?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. The surface have idiotic politics? Compared to Dwarven society? You sure you aren't horribly biased against the surface? Cause if you can't see how horribly ineffective Dwarven politics are, and how much of their own worst enemy they are, then you aren't looking hard enough.

I have looked hard. Yes. Compared to the surface, the dwarves are more developed and adavnced. You can't even compare the assembly to the Landsmeet, for example. Antiva seems to be borderline anarchy, with an order of assassins running the country. The orlesians in general seem to be powerful, but also quite petty and brutish, with a rather nasty society for anyone not born a human noble. Nevarra we know nothing about. The Free Marches seem to be idiot central of thedas if we go by Kirkwall and Starkhaven. Anderfells is a blighted wasteland ruled in reality by the Grey Wardens. Tevinter is a shadow of its former self, and from all accounts, seems to be a slowly crumbling, decaying society. Rivain doesn't seem to be a country at all, but a very loose "free zone" so to speak. 

In comparison, yes, the dwarves, even being potentially their own worst enemy, are still alot better than the surface countries. Even with their idiot assembly and its deshyrs, and their outdated caste system, still have more potential to evolve and develop better than the surface.

And as I stated before, regardless of who is chosen as king, in the orzammar quest, and even beyond, you see a number of dwarves who are at least pissed off with the system and feel change is needed. In otherwords, they at least are aware of the idocy and the desperate need for change. From the casteless, to the merchants and artisans who want more surface trade, to nobles like Helmi.

The surface still skips along in its idocy, completely content to wallow in ignorance and its backwards state. When you travel around Ferelden, you get people b*tching about the civil war, but you don't get people talking about how truly failed the political and social system is in Ferelden, and how the current system is their own worst enemy.  Despite Ferelden being held back in large part, due to its idiot petty nobles starting wars over trees, or deciding to start an all out civil war in the middle of a Blight.

I could go into many examples of why fundementally, the dwarves at their core are not as completely idiotic as their surface counterparts.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Dwarves almost started a civil war in the middle of a Blight aswell, you know... They would have, if it weren't for the Warden.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Dwarves almost started a civil war in the middle of a Blight aswell, you know... They would have, if it weren't for the Warden.

The blight has never been as big a deal for the Dwarves as for the rest of Thedas.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

That alone is stupid.

[Fallstar]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That alone is stupid.

Why? They are constantly waging war against the darkspawn, so a little respite while the hordes head for the surface is probably just what they need.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because what is bad for the surface is ultimately bad for the Dwarves. The Dwarves may gain a few decades of rest, but once the surface lies ruined and broken, who will then aid the Dwarves?
A Blight threatens everyone. Not just the surface.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Dwarves almost started a civil war in the middle of a Blight aswell, you know... They would have, if it weren't for the Warden.

Like Ian said, the Blight is not the same for dwarves as it is for the surface. Several dwarves tell you this in fact, that the Blight is the only time when the deep roads are quiet, and the darkspawn aren't attacking Orzammar. And beyond that, its mentioned several times that Blight empty the deeproads as all the darkspawn hoards swarm the surface.

So if anything, a Blight would be the best time for a civil war for the dwarves, if one was necessary. Because Blights are the only times dwarves aren't constantly being mobbed by the darkspawn. And given that, traditionally, Blights last for years, sometimes decades, so its actually quite a long reprieve. The 5th Blight was quite different because it was short, but that#'s another story.

And really, why should the dwarves really care about the Blights, beyond preparing for the inevitable return of darkspawn underground? The surface during the past 1300 years, beyond the Grey Wardens, has never shown any concern or care about the spawn when they are underground harrassing the dwarves, even though eventually, those darkspawn eventually will come and mob them once they find another old god.

Hell, one of the major reasons, amongst others, that my dwarven Wardens killed the architect was that his biggest defense was that he was trying to stop the Blights, and that really wasn't that compelling an arguement for a race who only got a break from the darkspawn during Blights.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because what is bad for the surface is ultimately bad for the Dwarves. The Dwarves may gain a few decades of rest, but once the surface lies ruined and broken, who will then aid the Dwarves?
A Blight threatens everyone. Not just the surface.

No, the DARKSPAWN threaten the dwarves. Blights really only threaten the surface.

Darkspawn are everyone's problems, yet other than the numerically insiginifgant order of the Wardens, the surfacers do not seem to care about the darkspawn other than in Blights.