1253 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

You actually think, that if a Blight were ever to overrun the surface, they would stop then and there?
A Blight threatens everyone. That they start at the surface is the only positive point for the Dwarves. If a Blight goes unchecked, Orzammar will fall just as the surface.

And have the Dwarves ever asked for help? They seem quite stubborn about handling their own problems, and keeping as many surfacers as possible, out of Orzammar.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You actually think, that if a Blight were ever to overrun the surface, they would stop then and there?
A Blight threatens everyone. That they start at the surface is the only positive point for the Dwarves. If a Blight goes unchecked, Orzammar will fall just as the surface.

And there are plenty of topsiders, as Legnar would say, to fight the Blights. Why should dwarves expend resources assisting the surface when they can build them up and wait for the inevitable return of the darkspawn? They even have the Grey Wardens, the only people who can truly end a Blight. Given that the dwarves are so few in number compared to the surfacers, it's even more risky to send what few forces they have.

Hell, that's one of the frequent complaints in Orzammar, was sending their sons to the surface to fight and die there, when the surface never sent their sons to the deep roads to fight between Blights. And it's a reasonable one, though for the sake of the plot, you still need the dwarves to fight.

And have the Dwarves ever asked for help? They seem quite stubborn about handling their own problems, and keeping as many surfacers as possible, out of Orzammar.

They have. I believe a few codexes refer to that. Hell, the dwarves aren't isolationist. In their glory days, they had strong ties with the old Tevinter imperium, and still employ Tevinter mages in various capacities (aka Amgarrak). The surface just doesn't really care. Because you know, they are too busy declaring exalted marches on each other, or trying to invade and reinvade each other.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 05 septembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

But if you want to bring up Blights, again, the dwarves come out ahead. because when you reach Orzammar, the problems aren't people not taking the Blight seriously. Everyone in Orzammar, even those who think its a good thing, still take the whole thing seriously. Because darkspawn are their daily reality, and the first Blight almost wiped them out. Compare that to the lackladaisial attitude of Cailan who thinks the Blight an epic story with him as the star. Or Loghain who thinks the Blight isn't real and probably just an Orlesian plot. Or well, the rest of the friggin Bannoron who, despite the Blight running unchecked through their neighbors, still decide Loghain is their biggest problem. This is during a Blight.

Compare this to Orzammar. The king has died, some say under suspicous circumstance, similar to Ferelden. They have an assembly/congress full of backstabbing, petty nobles too. The city is equally divided. Civil war is possible. However, the fact that civil war didn't break out amongst the dwarves the minute Endrin died shows that even flawed, the dwarves are still more civilized and subtle. The minute Cailan dies, Loghain runs and declares himself regent, the Bannorn says STFU, Loghain says STFU back, next thing you know, the country is at war, civil authority has broke down quite badly, and oh, yeah....there's that Blight thing.

The assembly might have deadlocked themselves into a state of stupid, but a deadlock is better than an all out civil war that ends up wasting lives and resources on one another. And the fact that a civil war could be prevented in Orzammar also says something. The Warden can only realistically stop the civil war, there's no way they could have prevented it.

Because civil war is not a crisis for the Bannorn, its a national pasttime. One that has proven detrimental to Ferelden in the past and present. And most likely, the future, if witch hunt and Awakening are anything to go by.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They use the only respite tehy get, for centuries, to almost start a civil war. Great thinking there. The only reason that they didn't deteriorate into civil war, is because of one single thing: The Warden. On the other hand, there is only one reason for why the Ferelden Civil War ever gets as bad as it got: The Warden. Otherwise Loghain would have crushed the Bannorn quickly, if the gossiping commoners are to be believed anyway. And the noble and warrior caste did end up wasting lots of lives and resources on eachother during the Fifth Blight.

And the Dwarves are isolationists. Very much so. Ever since the First Blight the Dwarves have desired to be on their own. Before the First Blight, they had ties with Tevinter and even Arlathan it appears. Not afterwards. I don't recall a single entry which ever mentions the Dwarves asking for help. It seems more that they purposely cut themselves off.

[Torax]

Don't forget that Loghain was one of just two Teyrn of Fereldon. So out of nowhwere all they that the many Nobles knew was that Loghain had fled the field leaving their king to die. Arl Rendon Howe was then given much land and control by Loghain along with claiming that the ONLY other noble who could challenge him was being claimed a traitor and killed by Howe's men when they took Highever Castle. It was a consolidation of power fueled by Howe and that is what sent the Civil War spiraling. Trying to simplify it as them just acting like idiots to claim the Dwarves as a more stable society? Hardly. Especially when one of the Oldest, loved and respected Noble Families were basically murdered in their own very Castle and branded Traitors so a Lesser Arl gets all of their land and more...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They use the only respite tehy get, for centuries, to almost start a civil war. Great thinking there. The only reason that they didn't deteriorate into civil war, is because of one single thing: The Warden. On the other hand, there is only one reason for why the Ferelden Civil War ever gets as bad as it got: The Warden. Otherwise Loghain would have crushed the Bannorn quickly, if the gossiping commoners are to be believed anyway. And the noble and warrior caste did end up wasting lots of lives and resources on eachother during the Fifth Blight.

The Warden had little to do with Loghain's lack of success crushing the Bannorn. Loghain made a number of foolish choices and bad calls. He didn't outright assassinate Eamon, for starters, when he should have. He chose his associates poorly. Loghain had a number of victories against rebellious Banns. But for every one he crushed, riots and rebellions broke out elsewhere. Loghain was winning militarily, but he couldn't keep civil and social order. And he had to expend his forces and the forces of his enemies on keeping the civil war down. This while a Blight is ravaging the countryside.

Let's say the Warden never showed up in Orzammar, and civil war broke out. Given what we know of the major players in Orzammar, Bhelen would have more than likely ended the civil war alot quicker with alot less damage than Loghain could have. Because Bhelen, amongst other things, is a very clever manipulator and ruthless politician. The Warden in this case, is a plot device more than anything, when it comes to Orzammar.

When it comes to Ferelden, even out of game, the country is still a mess. In the Stolen Throne, Loghain and Marric had to threaten, bribe, and coerce the Bannorn into fighting for their own independance. And the Codexes pretty much paint Ferelden with a long history of this sort of idiotic, petty, and primitive politcal state. Dwarves at least, in their infighting keep their wars in secret playing their shadowy games in Orzammar. Instead of deciding to start a war over something as retarded as the name of a pet, they duke it out in the provings. And play a bunch of games behind the scenes assassinating each other, or whatever. Which while a waste of time, is not nearly the full on waste of resources the full out wars over dogs and apple trees the Bannorn wages. Far less excessive and pointless collateral damage, for starters.

And the Dwarves are isolationists. Very much so. Ever since the First Blight the Dwarves have desired to be on their own. Before the First Blight, they had ties with Tevinter and even Arlathan it appears. Not afterwards. I don't recall a single entry which ever mentions the Dwarves asking for help. It seems more that they purposely cut themselves off.

No, they are not Isolationists. Not completely. Not enough that they do not have any sort of diplomatic relationships with the surface. As I said, Tevinter mages are still employed in research. And it was either in the shaperate codexes, or one of those Orzammar history codexes, that mentioned Orzammar appealing to one of the human kingdoms or something, for help with the darkspawn.

You have a number of dwarves, like Harrowmont, who are isolationist. But you have plenty that aren't, especially given the amount of dependance on surface trade.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Torax wrote...

Don't forget that Loghain was one of just two Teyrn of Fereldon. So out of nowhwere all they that the many Nobles knew was that Loghain had fled the field leaving their king to die. Arl Rendon Howe was then given much land and control by Loghain along with claiming that the ONLY other noble who could challenge him was being claimed a traitor and killed by Howe's men when they took Highever Castle. It was a consolidation of power fueled by Howe and that is what sent the Civil War spiraling. Trying to simplify it as them just acting like idiots to claim the Dwarves as a more stable society? Hardly. Especially when one of the Oldest, loved and respected Noble Families were basically murdered in their own very Castle and branded Traitors so a Lesser Arl gets all of their land and more...

It is a very good example. Like I said, both Cailan and Endrin died under very suspicous circumstances. Exccept, in ferelden's case, they still had Anora for the time being. Yet the king's corpse isn't cold, and the country breaks out into civil war. Endrin dies, accusations are made, but at least the dwarves don't just suddenly break out into civil war. They are deadlocked and getting ready to, true. But the fact that they at least try the legal, civilized route first is more than Ferelden tried.

And yes, the Bannorn were acting like complete idiots, they always do. In Awakening, Alistair and Anora both show up and inform you they have to go babysit the Bannorn again, because they are causing problems. The kind of babysitting that requires a large contingent of well armed troops, from the looks and sounds of it. Why are they revolting and starting problems? Loghain is dead, their chosen monarch on the throne, the country just survived a Blight. Yet they are still causing problems, and in Witch Hunt, if Redcliffe was spared, we see that Redcliffe is causing division in the Bannorn, possibly challenging Denerim.

So yes, the Bannorn were acting like destructive childish idiots once again. Which is unsurprising, since that's pretty much the history of Ferelden in a nutshell: Bannorn Behaving Badly. Loghain taking the Regency was just an excuse for them to "legitimize" their bad behavior. It was a foolish move on his part, as Loghain, more than anyone, understood and knew what a bunch of assinine morons the Banns were. Hell, in DA2, if you imported a Drunk-istair import where you spared Loghain and exiled Alistair, Teagan shows up to collect Alistair for Eamon, who has already once tried to put the same puppet on the throne before. Given that Eamon has not really shown anything resembling fatherly concern for Alistair's welfare, it is likely that Eamon has decided to try and utilize Alistair once again.

Anyway, my point is, yes, the surface fails in comparison to the dwarves. The dwarves have their own share of stupid, but not anywhere near the playground antics of politics on the surface.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They use the only respite tehy get, for centuries, to almost start a civil war. Great thinking there. The only reason that they didn't deteriorate into civil war, is because of one single thing: The Warden. On the other hand, there is only one reason for why the Ferelden Civil War ever gets as bad as it got: The Warden. Otherwise Loghain would have crushed the Bannorn quickly, if the gossiping commoners are to be believed anyway. And the noble and warrior caste did end up wasting lots of lives and resources on eachother during the Fifth Blight.

The Warden had little to do with Loghain's lack of success crushing the Bannorn. Loghain made a number of foolish choices and bad calls. He didn't outright assassinate Eamon, for starters, when he should have. He chose his associates poorly. Loghain had a number of victories against rebellious Banns. But for every one he crushed, riots and rebellions broke out elsewhere. Loghain was winning militarily, but he couldn't keep civil and social order. And he had to expend his forces and the forces of his enemies on keeping the civil war down. This while a Blight is ravaging the countryside.

Let's say the Warden never showed up in Orzammar, and civil war broke out. Given what we know of the major players in Orzammar, Bhelen would have more than likely ended the civil war alot quicker with alot less damage than Loghain could have. Because Bhelen, amongst other things, is a very clever manipulator and ruthless politician. The Warden in this case, is a plot device more than anything, when it comes to Orzammar.

When it comes to Ferelden, even out of game, the country is still a mess. In the Stolen Throne, Loghain and Marric had to threaten, bribe, and coerce the Bannorn into fighting for their own independance. And the Codexes pretty much paint Ferelden with a long history of this sort of idiotic, petty, and primitive politcal state. Dwarves at least, in their infighting keep their wars in secret playing their shadowy games in Orzammar. Instead of deciding to start a war over something as retarded as the name of a pet, they duke it out in the provings. And play a bunch of games behind the scenes assassinating each other, or whatever. Which while a waste of time, is not nearly the full on waste of resources the full out wars over dogs and apple trees the Bannorn wages. Far less excessive and pointless collateral damage, for starters.

And the Dwarves are isolationists. Very much so. Ever since the First Blight the Dwarves have desired to be on their own. Before the First Blight, they had ties with Tevinter and even Arlathan it appears. Not afterwards. I don't recall a single entry which ever mentions the Dwarves asking for help. It seems more that they purposely cut themselves off.

No, they are not Isolationists. Not completely. Not enough that they do not have any sort of diplomatic relationships with the surface. As I said, Tevinter mages are still employed in research. And it was either in the shaperate codexes, or one of those Orzammar history codexes, that mentioned Orzammar appealing to one of the human kingdoms or something, for help with the darkspawn.

You have a number of dwarves, like Harrowmont, who are isolationist. But you have plenty that aren't, especially given the amount of dependance on surface trade.

Behlen and Harrowmont have to threaten, force and coerce the otehr deshyrs into supporting eitehr of them. Why again is the Dwarven way superior? Also, those rebellions which did break out, happened for one reason. That Eamon and the Warden were still alive. Otherwise, the Bannorn would soon have buckled under Loghain's pressure.
They got some aid from Tevinter Magisters before the First Blight, there is no evidence of any more recent help. Nor can I find any codex entry, which mentions any other recent request for surface aid.

[Torax]

Point is you portray them as children. When they see one of the two Teyrn calling himself Regent with the King and the other Teyrn dead under suspicious claims of being a traitor to the crown? They are children to not immediately bow to him? Especially when they see Arl Howe gaining so much power and rank by killing or removing other nobles with ease? Of course they would want to war and end it. Especially when you have Loghain telling everyone it's not a true Blight. So of course they only see him as the real threat. With the whole KILLING OF THE NOBLES THAT GET IN HOWE'S WAY!!!

It's more like you are acting like a Child to want to charactorize all of them ignoring their motivations for your favoritism to the Dwarves...

Modifié par Torax, 05 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[Wulfram]

The dwarves do fight a civil war. Look at those dwarven rebels who try to kill the Warden. Plus of course "clever manipulator" Bhelen flipping out and getting himself killed in typically imbecilic fashion.

As a small city state, they're not in a position to fight an extended full scale civil war like Fereldan. Any coup will win or lose in a single day.

And Fereldan does settle the matter by proper legal means, as soon as Loghain is forced to pay any attention to them.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Behlen and Harrowmont have to threaten, force and coerce the otehr deshyrs into supporting eitehr of them. Why again is the Dwarven way superior? Also, those rebellions which did break out, happened for one reason. That Eamon and the Warden were still alive. Otherwise, the Bannorn would soon have buckled under Loghain's pressure.
They got some aid from Tevinter Magisters before the First Blight, there is no evidence of any more recent help. Nor can I find any codex entry, which mentions any other recent request for surface aid.

Rebellions were being talked about before I ever even ressurected Eamon. Nothing in the rumor mill suggested anything it being related to the Warden. In fact, two of the quests take place outside of ferelden political and social influence (the Dalish, though in Ferelden, are a marginalized society with little impact on the broader scope of Ferelden). So no, the Bannorn would not have necessarily buckled under Loghain that quickly. Eventually, yes, but by that time, the Blight would have overrun them all.

Forcing, bribing, and coercing people into supporting you is fine, if the situation demands it, or it is benefical to do so. In fact, thats politics in any normal society, pretty much. But when you have to force, bribe, and coerce the Bannorn to throw off a brutal foreign occupier with Orlais, that shows even a lack of self preserving intelligence for the Bannorn and the Ferelden system in general.

As I said before, the actual infighting of the dwarves is far more subtle and directed/controlled than it is amongst the Bannorn. They are not engaged in constant open conflict with each other, the darkspawn threat keeps the warring to a relative minimum. The Bannorn, on the other hand, actually march their armies on one another's lands, with all the collateral damage associated with open conflict.

So yeah, the dwarven system of backstabbing, bribing, and blackmailing in secret while publically pretending to be honorable and civilized is superior to a system that resembles a drunken brawl at some redneck's barn dance.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Torax wrote...

Point is you portray them as children. When they see one of the two Teyrn calling himself Regent with the King and the other Teyrn dead under suspicious claims of being a traitor to the crown? They are children to not immediately bow to him? Especially when they see Arl Howe gaining so much power and rank by killing or removing other nobles with ease? Of course they would want to war and end it. Especially when you have Loghain telling everyone it's not a true Blight. So of course they only see him as the real threat. With the whole KILLING OF THE NOBLES THAT GET IN HOWE'S WAY!!!

It's more like you are acting like a Child to want to charactorize all of them ignoring their motivations for your favoritism to the Dwarves...

No, they are children because they were doing it well before Loghain stepped in as regent, and they were mostly fighting to pursue their own personal ambitions and vendettas. Remember when you work for Igancio in the trial of the crows, at the end, when you ask him about who contracted the hits, he states that the civil war brought many old grudges to a boil. There were alot of Banns who really could care less about the Blight or Loghain, but were using the conflict to more openly pursue grudges and ambitions.

Yes, that is childish, especially as many of them were utilizing the chaos to advance themselves. Eamon's a great example of this. Eamon's just alot more clever than many Banns. I'm not ignoring their motivations at all. Sure, some probably saw it as a threat Loghain and Howe's actions. Most were more indingant that a man born a commoner was thinking of lording it over them. Even despite his hero status, Loghain is still thought of as a commoner my a number of nobles, and Anora is also thought to still be too much of common blood for some. So yes, given their history and some of the comments in game, I do question their motives for rebelling. Which are more often than not, childish.

I mean, if people were that worried about him, they could have just assassinated him. That's the dwarven way, and its far less bloody. Instead, everyone goes home, gathers up their armies, and voila. Chaos.

The system is flawed as well. The Bannorn has shown itself to be terminally stupid, yet they retain power and armies after centuries.  The Landsmeet still holds, as does their irrational fascination with the Therin bloodline, which historically produces plenty of brawn but not many brains. The dwarves have their idiots, but the Aeducans have been able to rule successfully for centuries, without the drooling idiots that so many surface dynasties seem to produce (even the Orlesian imperial family included a few idiots). Dwarven politics are too ruthless, subtle, and fine tuned to allow a drooling idiot on the throne (like Arland or Meghren). Not to mention again, the darkspawn do not afford them the luxury of being ruled by retards.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I am not even gonna bother anymore... You are obviously extremely biased towards the Dwarven system, for whatever reasons, so further discussion is pointless. If you cannot even see that the Dwarven nobles act pretty much exactly like the Fereldan, then it is bcause you don't want to see it.

Both parties used the turmoil in their respective states, to advance themselves for whatever reasons. Not just Loghain, Howe, Behlen and Harrowmont, but all the nobles and deshyrs. They are acting like all nobles have always acted. And compared to the relatively few Dwarfs which are left, even the slightest loss of life is a catastrophe. Which Behlen and Harrowmont causes.

The same goes for Loghain. But at least he had a few cases of paranoia and a prophecy to prove wrong. Behlen and Harrowmont did it purely for the power they could gain.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


The same goes for Loghain. But at least he had a few cases of paranoia and a prophecy to prove wrong. Behlen and Harrowmont did it purely for the power they could gain.

Uhh, well, yeah.....why else would a competant ruler fight for the throne? Power. But with Bhelen, it goes further because he is not afraid to use his power to achieve his ends and further his goals, and enact the changes he wants to progress Orzammar, whether people like it or not. He wants power for political, social, and personal reasons. These are far better reasons than fear of prophecies or old war paranoia, because they are reasons more basic and practical.

Anyways, yes, I like the dwarven system better. It needs drastic and fundemental changes, like the rigid caste system and the alienation of surface dwarves and the trade they bring. As well as the rule of thumb a paragon's word is like word of God. But I see alot potential for these things to be fixed, and fixed with a far lower per capita body count than the surfacers could manage.

[TEWR]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You actually think, that if a Blight were ever to overrun the surface, they would stop then and there?
A Blight threatens everyone. That they start at the surface is the only positive point for the Dwarves. If a Blight goes unchecked, Orzammar will fall just as the surface.

And there are plenty of topsiders, as Legnar would say, to fight the Blights. Why should dwarves expend resources assisting the surface when they can build them up and wait for the inevitable return of the darkspawn? They even have the Grey Wardens, the only people who can truly end a Blight. Given that the dwarves are so few in number compared to the surfacers, it's even more risky to send what few forces they have.

Hell, that's one of the frequent complaints in Orzammar, was sending their sons to the surface to fight and die there, when the surface never sent their sons to the deep roads to fight between Blights. And it's a reasonable one, though for the sake of the plot, you still need the dwarves to fight.

And have the Dwarves ever asked for help? They seem quite stubborn about handling their own problems, and keeping as many surfacers as possible, out of Orzammar.

They have. I believe a few codexes refer to that. Hell, the dwarves aren't isolationist. In their glory days, they had strong ties with the old Tevinter imperium, and still employ Tevinter mages in various capacities (aka Amgarrak). The surface just doesn't really care. Because you know, they are too busy declaring exalted marches on each other, or trying to invade and reinvade each other.

More than just the Tevinter Imperium. The old Dwarves traded with both the Tevinter Imperium and the Avvars (secretly, as it went against the word they gave to Tevinter) and they sheltered elves and possibly brought in some elven artifacts beyond the Lights of Arlathan.

Before the first Blight, no one had ever seen a Darkspawn before. I doubt anyone would've believed the Dwarves if they said "Please help us beat this monstrous foe that's plaguing us!".

Also, they even believed that they were easily defeating the Darkspawn at first because the victories came easily when they did send the army out.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

With Burkel, it wouldn't be an independent Circle at first.

Why would there even be a Circle of Magi in Orzammar with Brother Burkel trying to convert the dwarves to the Chantry of Andraste? Why would mages flee the Andrastian nations for Orzammar if the Chantry is already gaining influence there? The Andrastian dwarves aren't going to abandon their religion simply because Burke is slain, and I don't see mages eager to substitute one form of Chantry oppression for another. The independent Circle of Orzammar arises because of Dagna's research and the absence of Andrastianism among the dwarves, unless The Warden from the Circle asks for his people to be given their independence (which could mean they head to Amaranthine instead, which is governed by an Arl - the most powerful mage throughout the Andrastian nations). I can imagine the mages may seek refugee if they are all aware that the new Arl of Amaranthine asked for his people to be freed, and now controls an entire arling, an army, and every Grey Warden throughout the nation.

What's interesting is that there doesn't seem to be any negative repercussions among the denizens of Orzammar with free mages living alongside the dwarves. No mages descending into insane and stupid buffoons, apparently, with only the Chantry of Andraste being addressed as having a negative reaction to the existence of an independent Circle of Magi.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You actually think, that if a Blight were ever to overrun the surface, they would stop then and there?
A Blight threatens everyone. That they start at the surface is the only positive point for the Dwarves. If a Blight goes unchecked, Orzammar will fall just as the surface.

And have the Dwarves ever asked for help? They seem quite stubborn about handling their own problems, and keeping as many surfacers as possible, out of Orzammar.

You seem to be under the impression that the Dwarves haven't been fighting their own eternal Blight for Ages now.

The other kingdoms only care when the Darkspawn march in the light. But they're always here, always pushing. Your nightmare is my everyday. Our resolve gives you a rest between Blights. A surge on the surface would give us a break. --- Kardol

Kardol and the men of the Legion of the Dead were what was keeping Orzammar safe. The throne only sends the Warrior caste out for expeditions. Under Bhelen is when they really start to push against the Darkspawn, because their numbers are growing thanks to the Casteless.

The Dwarves are the only thing that have kept the surface from constantly fighting the Darkspawn, because they're fighting for their own survival. That the Darkspawn find an Archdemon is a stroke of luck and allows the Dwarves to rebuild their numbers for when the Blight is ended. There are millions upon millions of surfacers, and less Dwarves each day.

The Dwarves don't care about the surface because the surface never cared about them. A quote of mine, if you will:

Some people say I turned my back on the world. To that I say the world first turned its back on me.

The same thing applies to the Dwarves. No one on the surface ever cared that they were under threat from the Darkspawn eternally. Where did the surfacers think the Darkspawn went? To Rainbow Village? They retreat underground, where the Dwarves live. And society just kept on doing what they were doing, instead of offering to help the Dwarves in their lifelong struggle for survival. The Dwarves are hardened because the world made them so.

They have been fighting the Darkspawn for Ages now, and until Bhelen (and Xanthos Aeducan) came along they were so mired in tradition that it ended up doing more harm then good. During the emergence of the Darkspawn, they thought that they weren't a threat because victories came easily. When they realized that they were wrong, it was all they could do to keep themselves from dying out entirely.

The Darkspawn swarmed them from all sides it seems, as many southern Thaigs fell in Ferelden before Kal-Hirol itself fell.

When the darkspawn came, Kal'Hirol was among the first of the great thaigs to fall. Our people still mourn the loss.

If they were besieged by the Darkspawn from multiple sides, they couldn't have petitioned for help themselves. Even Orzammar was too busy arguing about which Thaig should be defended. It was up to the Paragon Aeducan to lead the armies, miners, and smiths against the Darkspawn in order to secure Orzammar.

The Blights are their only time of rest, and when they are over the Darkspawn immediately try and attack the Dwarves again. That's partially why Genlocks are the most numerous Darkspawn. Broodmothers do die eventually, so they need to rebuild their numbers. Sad to say, the Dwarves aren't entirely keen on females being made into broodmothers. I believe it's information only known to a select few groups (Grey Wardens, Legion of the Dead, and certain high ranking Dwarves who go searching for Anvils)

The Treaty that compelled them to help in a Blight was signed during the 4th Blight IIRC, and was never used. People in Orzammar didn't even know a Blight was happening (see the Mines Commander).

They couldn't assist the topsiders immediately for the same reason the elves couldn't. Any shortage of forces would weaken them against their foe. The elves couldn't assist the Warden by handing him warriors because the werewolves would've taken advantage of it, and the Dwarves couldn't assist the Warden because any shortage of Warriors would allow for the other throne candidate to launch an assault to take the throne.

You should also know that in times of war, the King of Orzammar commands the army entirely, so splitting up the forces doesn't do much good (see Shaper Czibor).

Until the world starts giving a damn that they are under constant threat of annihilation, the Dwarves are not obligated to help the surface world with their problems during a Blight. They are helping themselves, which inadvertently helps the surface, by remaining vigilant against the Darkspawn (something only the Grey Wardens recognize). The surface has the Grey Wardens and other nations, and even if Ferelden were to fall the Darkspawn would've moved to Orlais and the Free Marches instead of returning underground. Riordan says that the Grey Wardens were preparing for that event, because if Ferelden was too worried about their own politics instead of the Darkspawn, then there was no hope for them to be saved at all and the world would stand ready.

You say that the Dwarves don't care. They do care, but they have their own reasons for doing so. The surface is not one of them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 septembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

With Burkel, it wouldn't be an independent Circle at first.

Why would there even be a Circle of Magi in Orzammar with Brother Burkel trying to convert the dwarves to the Chantry of Andraste? Why would mages flee the Andrastian nations for Orzammar if the Chantry is already gaining influence there? The Andrastian dwarves aren't going to abandon their religion simply because Burke is slain, and I don't see mages eager to substitute one form of Chantry oppression for another. The independent Circle of Orzammar arises because of Dagna's research and the absence of Andrastianism among the dwarves, unless The Warden from the Circle asks for his people to be given their independence (which could mean they head to Amaranthine instead, which is governed by an Arl - the most powerful mage throughout the Andrastian nations). I can imagine the mages may seek refugee if they are all aware that the new Arl of Amaranthine asked for his people to be freed, and now controls an entire arling, an army, and every Grey Warden throughout the nation.

What's interesting is that there doesn't seem to be any negative repercussions among the denizens of Orzammar with free mages living alongside the dwarves. No mages descending into insane and stupid buffoons, apparently, with only the Chantry of Andraste being addressed as having a negative reaction to the existence of an independent Circle of Magi.

Think about it. The Chantry wants lyrium for the Templars, and the best way to do that if there's a Chantry in Orzammar would be to establish a Circle in Orzammar and then say that they need Templars there to oversee the Mages (the Dwarves would probably be wary of foreign zealotous fighters just waltzing on in there because there's a Chantry without a legitimate reason). The Templars wouldn't be able to outnumber the entire city of Orzammar, especially with their Golems (both those the Shaperate held onto and the new ones that are made under Branka if you spared the Anvil).

Then, the Circle would fall under Orzammar jurisdiction when Burkel is slain and the Andrastian converts are kicked out of Orzammar, thus eliminating the Chantry's influence from staining Orzammar. The King would then talk to the mages and allow them to live freely in exchange for fighting the Darkspawn, and would establish a regiment of Dwarven Templars that would only exist to kill Abominations and maleficarum that sacrificed innocent lives.

[dragonflight288]

And Dwarven Templars would be far more effective than human or elven templars (if Andrastian nations allow second class citizens to become templars, I have yet to see an elven one who isn't trained by Alistair).

Dwarves natural resistance to magic, adding in a templar's training, which at the moment they lack. They do have the fearsome beserkers though.

@ Etheral.

You and I have some similar thoughts on how Orzammar would be run. Perhaps we can discuss it in PM on what Xanthos and Thorin would do differently?

[Rifneno]

Tainan7509 wrote...

This entire thread is like a circle for pro-mage players and pro-templars players in the real life.
Just saying..

*golf clap*

IanPolaris wrote...

I'm not sure the Chantry isn't worse than the Qun actually. At least the Qun are far less hypocritical.

Are you kidding? The Arishok is such an enormous hypocrite, if he existed in real life he'd be legally obligated to have a political talk show. Bann Vaughn was a better example of good moral character.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. The surface have idiotic politics? Compared to Dwarven society? You sure you aren't horribly biased against the surface? Cause if you can't see how horribly ineffective Dwarven politics are, and how much of their own worst enemy they are, then you aren't looking hard enough.

I have to question my own sanity as I say this, but Emp is right. It's hard to find a way in which the dwarven society isn't incredibly stupid. And yes, a blight is everyone's concern. Disagree? Fill in the blank here: The dwarves lost the Deep Roads to the darkspawn during the First ______.

[Shadow Fox]

Having replayed the game I think that as a whole the mage/Templar thing is gray but DA2's endgame is not*since the Circle had nothing to do with Anders* Now if Meredith had waited 5 minutes saw the mages go Abom then annuled it that's a different matter.*pity that the Arcane Defender/Mage Hunter achivements aren't tied to the endgame choice would make getting the Arcane Defender so much easier for me.*

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 06 septembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And Dwarven Templars would be far more effective than human or elven templars (if Andrastian nations allow second class citizens to become templars, I have yet to see an elven one who isn't trained by Alistair).

Dwarves natural resistance to magic, adding in a templar's training, which at the moment they lack. They do have the fearsome beserkers though.

@ Etheral.

You and I have some similar thoughts on how Orzammar would be run. Perhaps we can discuss it in PM on what Xanthos and Thorin would do differently?

Sure thing. Send me a PM and I'll respond to it sometime tomorrow in my free time, as I'm heading off to bed right now.

[TEWR]

I have to question my own sanity as I say this, but Emp is right. It's hard to find a way in which the dwarven society isn't incredibly stupid. And yes, a blight is everyone's concern. Disagree? Fill in the blank here: The dwarves lost the Deep Roads to the darkspawn during the First ______.

If it's everyone's concern, then why the hell doesn't anyone ask the Dwarves if they'd like help? No one ever did, as humanity, elvenity, and surface dwarvity just went about living their lives and ignoring the Darkspawn.

So much so that they thought they were permanently wiped out after the 4th Blight instead of thinking to ask the Dwarves if this was the case.

Saying the Dwarves should care about the occasional Blight on the surface is incredibly asenine considering no one has ever cared that they have been facing an eternal Blight that will never end (and is still up in the air if it ever will now that we have the Disciples).

edit: and before someone says "Well why didn't they ask for help?", ask yourself why no one ever offered to help the Dwarves.

It's a two-way street. Should the Dwarves have asked for help? Yes, but at least they can blame traditionalism for why they didn't ask. Does it excuse them entirely? No, but they at least had a solid reason for not doing so that was a part of their lifestyle.

Should the surface have offered help? Yes, and they have nothing to use as an excuse. The Chantry preaches that they help all of the Maker's children and that everyone on Thedas is one of his children.

Didn't see much of the Chantry helping the Dwarves like.... well if tomorrow is Tuesday, that makes it..... EVER.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why should the surface offer aid to the Dwarves, when the Dwarves have never expressed any need for assistance? Unless the Dwarves express a need for assistance the surface will assume they are doing fine (as fine as they can anyway).

Remember that the surface (Ferelden anyway) did offer to aid the Dwarves, as soon as the Dwarves asked. Granted, only after the Dwarves also aided Ferelden. Funny how that works.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If it's everyone's concern, then why the hell doesn't anyone ask the Dwarves if they'd like help? No one ever did, as humanity, elvenity, and surface dwarvity just went about living their lives and ignoring the Darkspawn.

We only see Orzammar with two possible kings. One of them is a guy that doesn't care about the dwarven ways, and the other is a traditionalist like every other short drunk living underground. What happens if a dwarven warden asks Ferelden to aid his people with the traditionalist dwarf on the throne? The **** bars the gates to the surface and refuses aid. Now, Harrowmont's only major failing was that he was a fervent follower of the purified retardation known as dwarven society. I have pretty serious doubts that he made the decision to deny his people military aid unless it's because that's the traditional dwarven jackassery.

So much so that they thought they were permanently wiped out after the 4th Blight instead of thinking to ask the Dwarves if this was the case.

Your conjecture, nothing more.

Saying the Dwarves should care about the occasional Blight on the surface is incredibly asenine considering no one has ever cared that they have been facing an eternal Blight that will never end (and is still up in the air if it ever will now that we have the Disciples).

They aren't facing an eternal blight, they couldn't possibly handle a blight. They face some darkspawn stragglers, not a massive horde lead by a frickin' god. If they had to stand against the force of an actual blight, Orzammar wouldn't last a day.

edit: and before someone says "Well why didn't they ask for help?", ask yourself why no one ever offered to help the Dwarves.

Or... you ask yourself what proof you have that nobody did.