1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not really. The point was about the character of the majority of templars or mages. Why mages are mages or templars are templars or what choices the player is given in regards to them is beside the point.

Well that's kind of the point, isn't it? One group is born with a genetic abnormality that occurs in all races (that have a Fade connection), the other is a group of people that signed up to join an evil organization. The question is along the lines of "which is more evil: people who can wiggle their ears, or drug cartel enforcers?"

[thats1evildude]

Rifneno wrote...

One group is born with a genetic abnormality that occurs in all races (that have a Fade connection), the other is a group of people that signed up to join an evil organization. The question is along the lines of "which is more evil: people who can wiggle their ears, or drug cartel enforcers?"

Maybe we should put that question to the slaves of the Tevinter Imperium. Before they get sacrificed to fuel blood magic rituals, that is. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2011 - 10:20 .

[Rifneno]

thats1evildude wrote...

Maybe we should put that question to the slaves of the Tevinter Imperium. Before they get sacrificed to fuel blood magic rituals, that is. 

Ever taken an IQ test and seen one of those questions they use to give the mouthbreathers a few points like "A dog is a mammal, are all mammals dogs?"

[Dave of Canada]

Rifneno wrote...

The question is along the lines of "which is more evil: people who can wiggle their ears, or drug cartel enforcers?"

Ignoring how you're using the word "evil" again:
Being capable of manipulating minds, summon demons, raise the dead, devastate villages, incinerate people and more... is comparable to wiggling ears? I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the foolishness of your statement, you're dismissing everything to try and justify your point.

Though I shouldn't be surprised anymore.

[thats1evildude]

I can see how you would draw a comparison between people who can wiggle their ears and mages. Because people who can wiggle their ears in our reality are always at risk of turning into tumor-covered insane horrors capable of raising the dead and slaughtering hundreds of people. Maybe we should ask some of the people of Redcliffe or the Blackmarsh about their thoughts on the subject.

But, y'know, the Chantry is still wrong for oppressing mages, no matter the risk they pose to the rest of Thedas. What they should do is dissolve the templar order and let all the mages run free.

That worked out really well in Tevinter, ie. the Land of Happy Slaves. I'm sure the people who are forced to surrender family members to the whims of a blood mage — which nicely parallels the Chantry system of requiring families to surrender children with magical talent, incidentally — would be happy to share their thoughts on the subject.

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Though I shouldn't be surprised anymore.

I certainly ain't.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2011 - 11:03 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not really. The point was about the character of the majority of templars or mages. Why mages are mages or templars are templars or what choices the player is given in regards to them is beside the point.

Well that's kind of the point, isn't it? One group is born with a genetic abnormality that occurs in all races (that have a Fade connection), the other is a group of people that signed up to join an evil organization. The question is along the lines of "which is more evil: people who can wiggle their ears, or drug cartel enforcers?"

The Chantry is not an evil organization. Nor are they intended to be the main villians of the franchise or anything like that. Especially considering many people who insist that they are have also complained that the writers are also biased against the mages they wrote.

I believe you yourself once said (to David Gaider I think) that you didn't really have a problem with the Chantry until Dragon Age 2. Really the same principle "Evil templars = Tempalrs are all evil but Evil mages = writers have an anti-mage bias" can be applied to the whole institution too. Besides, the Chantry is not some singular monolithic entity any more than the mages are.

Templars serve a noble purpose: protecting mages from the population (and demons) and the population from mages.

But their methods need work. I believe mages need to be suprvised but the Circles need reform. But the Circle in Kirkwall was not even functioning like it was intended to. Templars aren't meant to wield the level of political power they do in the game and  Elthina's ability to control Meredith was obviously very limited. Since we're told from start to finish that Meredith was the real power in the city I'm inclined to suspect the fact that Elthina doesn't stop her is because she can't rather than she doesn't care. Especially since that's pretty much exactly what she tells you if you ask her in the beggining of Act 3.

[thats1evildude]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Templars serve a noble purpose: protecting mages from the population (and demons) and the population from mages.

But their methods need work. I believe mages need to be suprvised but the Circles need reform. But the Circle in Kirkwall was not even functioning like it was intended to. Templars aren't meant to wield the level of political power they do in the game and  Elthina's ability to control Meredith was obviously very limited.

You hit the nail on the head there.

[esper]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not really. The point was about the character of the majority of templars or mages. Why mages are mages or templars are templars or what choices the player is given in regards to them is beside the point.

Well that's kind of the point, isn't it? One group is born with a genetic abnormality that occurs in all races (that have a Fade connection), the other is a group of people that signed up to join an evil organization. The question is along the lines of "which is more evil: people who can wiggle their ears, or drug cartel enforcers?"

The Chantry is not an evil organization. Nor are they intended to be the main villians of the franchise or anything like that. Especially considering many people who insist that they are have also complained that the writers are also biased against the mages they wrote.

I believe you yourself once said (to David Gaider I think) that you didn't really have a problem with the Chantry until Dragon Age 2. Really the same principle "Evil templars = Tempalrs are all evil but Evil mages = writers have an anti-mage bias" can be applied to the whole institution too. Besides, the Chantry is not some singular monolithic entity any more than the mages are.

Templars serve a noble purpose: protecting mages from the population (and demons) and the population from mages.

But their methods need work. I believe mages need to be suprvised but the Circles need reform. But the Circle in Kirkwall was not even functioning like it was intended to. Templars aren't meant to wield the level of political power they do in the game and  Elthina's ability to control Meredith was obviously very limited. Since we're told from start to finish that Meredith was the real power in the city I'm inclined to suspect the fact that Elthina doesn't stop her is because she can't rather than she doesn't care. Especially since that's pretty much exactly what she tells you if you ask her in the beggining of Act 3.

The chantry is a corrupt power hungry Organisation which believe in a malevouent god...
I am to tired to have this conversation now - never mind. Riferno can do it better.

[Dave of Canada]

People generally hate anything to do with religion regardless of how benevolent or not they may be, people wanted to kill Chantry priests even before Origins came out. Any argument that seems to imply religion as being a good thing will be dismissed immediately, unfortunately.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People generally hate anything to do with religion regardless of how benevolent or not they may be, people wanted to kill Chantry priests even before Origins came out. Any argument that seems to imply religion as being a good thing will be dismissed immediately, unfortunately.

People generally hate.

I think that sentence is broadly accurate. They will always find someone and something to hate.

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

People generally hate.

I think that sentence is broadly accurate. They will always find someone and something to hate.

True, though there's some topics which often find themselves subject to more hate than others! 

[esper]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People generally hate anything to do with religion regardless of how benevolent or not they may be, people wanted to kill Chantry priests even before Origins came out. Any argument that seems to imply religion as being a good thing will be dismissed immediately, unfortunately.

All right I will bite even if think I am too tired to argue this properly.
I didn't mind the chantry in da:o, because I wasn't really paying attention to what they were saying. They seemed decent enough. Then in da2 I started to pay attention - I even went back and played da:o once more and I found that:

- The Maker is a horrible god with a horribole personality and no sane person should wish to have his attention back.
- The chantry is too mixed up in with Politics in Orlais and the rest of the world - this is really bad when:
- The chantry has a belief that the chant most be spread to all four corner of the world. Mix this with politics and an instrument called exhalted marches and you have a really bad military organisation which can cause a lot of damage.
- The chant of light is used as an excuse to oppress a group of people and rob them of any lega rights (the mages)
- Part of the chant of light have been stripped out so another group of oppressed people doesn't get too inspired (the elves)

How can I not see the chantry as a rotten orgianistion which do much more harm than good?

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Dave
Like TIM?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 11:04 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People generally hate anything to do with religion regardless of how benevolent or not they may be, people wanted to kill Chantry priests even before Origins came out. Any argument that seems to imply religion as being a good thing will be dismissed immediately, unfortunately.

I agree everything you said. Their view on this is they are forcing their religion onto the mages.

but i also agree with the mages that not all should clumped into a giant group because of the actions of a few mages. But they also have to remember that people are unpredictable and when you have that kind of power some action has to be taken to ensure that they do not harm themselves or others.

Imagine a world where you have teenagers going through puberty that are able to toss fireballs and conjuer a demon.

Now imagine they were just dumped. 


If anything i think there should be a age cut off. That kids have to go to the circle until they come of age and they are trained to use their magic and taught what it is that makes them so dangerous and how to avoid temptation then evaluated and allowed to go live their lives if they are deemed fit to function in society.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 29 août 2011 - 11:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Dave
Like TIM?

Bingo!

[Xilizhra]

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

[Sabariel]

The mages of Kirkwall have an excuse. There's a faceless evil making them crazy >3

[miraclemight]

GavrielKay wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

And Orsino dealing with Quentin felt even more stupid.

I don't really see why people have such a problem with this. Quentin's research yielded some potentially powerful weapons in the battle against the templars. Orsino was readying for an eventual confrontation with Meredith. Therefore, Orsino kept Quentin's activities a secret.

I don't remember Orsino being presented as readying for much of anything.  He seemed to be hanging on to whatever rights he could for the mages by the skin of his teeth.  Getting involved with a renegade necromancer is odd.  Where's the back story of how they even knew each other?  Where is Orsino's motivation to do something that if he was caught at it would give Meredith hard evidence of bad faith on the part of the First Enchanter himself?

Listen to the mages hanging out in the Gallow’s courtyard in Act I and II. They say that Orsino is forcing them to sell potions and equipment with a much higher price than necessary. Some of them even say that Orsino doesn’t allow them to sell anything because they are too “honest”.

Either he was a greedy bastard or something else was going on. Still, doesn’t justify ripping off people to gain what you need. This, coupled with the fact that he helped Orsino makes me think he was shady character from the start.

 

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

[Xilizhra]

Listen to the mages hanging out in the Gallow’s courtyard in Act I and II. They say that Orsino is forcing them to sell potions and equipment with a much higher price than necessary. Some of them even say that Orsino doesn’t allow them to sell anything because they are too “honest”.

I'm seriously wondering if different outcomes happen in different versions of the game...

[Follow Me on Twitter]

It's not really "mages" It's a tranquil that says the overprice line followed by "they dont allow me to sell anything they say i'm too honest".

But yeah that also made me think they were preparing for something big.

[Xilizhra]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

Don't have it be tied to the Chantry, first and foremost. They would be a guard force for the Circle itself. They'd have their own chain of command, but the Circles would be a multinational organization, with the Knight-Vigilant existing alongside the... I don't know, High Enchanter or something.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

Get mages involved in law enforcement. Give them an active stake in protecting each other, rather than relying on Templars like children. The Templars have too much power, but the mages need to start taking some responsibility. That means prosecuting blood magic; that means enforcing the political separation between the state and the Circle. Mages and Templars don't have to be enemies - they'll likely never be friends, but that doesn't mean there aren't common interests they can't collaborate on.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

Don't have it be tied to the Chantry, first and foremost. They would be a guard force for the Circle itself. They'd have their own chain of command, but the Circles would be a multinational organization, with the Knight-Vigilant existing alongside the... I don't know, High Enchanter or something.

But they would still be locked away in a tower?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

Don't have it be tied to the Chantry, first and foremost. They would be a guard force for the Circle itself. They'd have their own chain of command, but the Circles would be a multinational organization, with the Knight-Vigilant existing alongside the... I don't know, High Enchanter or something.

But they would still be locked away in a tower?

Perhaps decentralize each Circle. Fewer mages in a concentrated area. That way, if one circle falls, it doesn't cause a massive chain reaction leading to the subversion of the entire system. Give Harrowed mages more freedom, jobs, etc.