1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Urzon]

Everyone seem to be forgetting one of the chat options when Duncun asks you about Darkspawn.

"Aren't they a Dwarven problem?"

Thedas might not have forgotten about the darkspawn, but they don't care about them unless it's during a Blight and its their lives on the line.

[Rifneno]

Urzon wrote...

Everyone seem to be forgetting one of the chat options when Duncun asks you about Darkspawn.

"Aren't they a Dwarven problem?"

Thedas might not have forgotten about the darkspawn, but they don't care about them unless it's during a Blight and its their lives on the line.

There's lots of dialogue options where the Warden can be a douchebag, that hardly means the entire culture feels the same way.

[TEWR]

Your conjecture, nothing more.

Wrong. This is what the game's citizens actually believed. I'll try and dig up the actual source, but IIRC it's something that Duncan said Thedas' citizens believed in the Origin stories.

More than likely I'll only be able to state which origins it's in, as I doubt any Origin video on youtube has it, but we'll see.

I do know however that one source (note: I said ONE. There are more than just the one I'm about to talk about) is a Dwarf outside of Orzammar's Deep Roads entrance who says that the people believed this to be the case.

At best, people believed the only Darkspawn left were the occasional band attacking the farms and villages. However, I'm almost 100% positive it was that people believed the Darkspawn were gone forever.

Again, I'm going to dig up the other sources, because I know it was stated elsewhere in the game.

They aren't facing an eternal blight, they couldn't possibly handle a blight. They face some darkspawn stragglers, not a massive horde lead by a frickin' god. If they had to stand against the force of an actual blight, Orzammar wouldn't last a day.

You and I have radically different definitions of a Blight. A single Alpha and Emissary can command groups of Darkspawn and think, and most citizens on Thedas are hard-pressed to even defeat roving Darkspawn bands during non-Blights.

The shock troop of the darkspawn, a single berserking hurlock can often be a match for numerous opponents at once

Alpha hurlocks are more intelligent and more skilled fighters, often serving as commanders or even generals.

How you can say they're facing stragglers when the entire horde is underground is beyond me.

Or... you ask yourself what proof you have that nobody did.

How about peoples' belief that the Darkspawn were wiped out after the 4th Blight. They thought this was the case.

Again, I'll dig up the other sources beyond the Dwarf, but that's the only one that immediately comes to mind since I haven't played DAO for a while.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 septembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[ladyofpayne]

Anders isn't insane and stupid. But I really need to see mage like Cullen for templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Your conjecture, nothing more.

Wrong. This is what the game's citizens actually believed. I'll try and dig up the actual source, but IIRC it's something that Duncan said Thedas' citizens believed in the Origin stories.

More than likely I'll only be able to state which origins it's in, as I doubt any Origin video on youtube has it, but we'll see.

I do know however that one source (note: I said ONE. There are more than just the one I'm about to talk about) is a Dwarf outside of Orzammar's Deep Roads entrance who says that the people believed this to be the case.

At best, people believed the only Darkspawn left were the occasional band attacking the farms and villages. However, I'm almost 100% positive it was that people believed the Darkspawn were gone forever.

Again, I'm going to dig up the other sources, because I know it was stated elsewhere in the game.

They aren't facing an eternal blight, they couldn't possibly handle a blight. They face some darkspawn stragglers, not a massive horde lead by a frickin' god. If they had to stand against the force of an actual blight, Orzammar wouldn't last a day.

You and I have radically different definitions of a Blight. A single Alpha and Emissary can command groups of Darkspawn and think, and most citizens on Thedas are hard-pressed to even defeat roving Darkspawn bands during non-Blights.

The shock troop of the darkspawn, a single berserking hurlock can often be a match for numerous opponents at once

Alpha hurlocks are more intelligent and more skilled fighters, often serving as commanders or even generals.

How you can say they're facing stragglers when the entire horde is underground is beyond me.

Or... you ask yourself what proof you have that nobody did.

How about peoples' belief that the Darkspawn were wiped out after the 4th Blight. They thought this was the case.

Again, I'll dig up the other sources beyond the Dwarf, but that's the only one that immediately comes to mind since I haven't played DAO for a while.

The entire population of Darkspawn is not constantly pressing towards Orzammar, when a Blight isn't going on. Orzammar faces the scattered Darkspawn, only large Warbands at worst. Whena  BLight has started, the Darkspawn becomes the real threat, since they become unified by purpose.
While true that the surface believed the Darkspawn threat was forever ended after the Fourth Blight, you have to remember that Thedas got no internet or world news network. How the flying hell was an Anders ever going to ask a Dwarf? Nor did anyone neccesarily believe that the Darkspawn were extinct, but merely that their numbers had suffered such a blow, that they would never recover.
Nor is Thedas "hard pressed" to fight Darkspawn outside of Blights. All that happens on Thedas is the occasional stragglers, and odd raids on isolated farmstead. Perhaps a sudden spread of the corruption. But that is it.
And again I must point out that the common man is not going to have any knowledge of the Dwarves struggle against the Darkspawn. Hell, some probably don't even know about Orzammar at all. A learned individual would probably have knowledge of the Dwarves' struggle, perhaps they even offered aid, but it isn't common for Dwarves to ask for, or even accept, aid.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Think about it. The Chantry wants lyrium for the Templars, and the best way to do that if there's a Chantry in Orzammar would be to establish a Circle in Orzammar and then say that they need Templars there to oversee the Mages (the Dwarves would probably be wary of foreign zealotous fighters just waltzing on in there because there's a Chantry without a legitimate reason). The Templars wouldn't be able to outnumber the entire city of Orzammar, especially with their Golems (both those the Shaperate held onto and the new ones that are made under Branka if you spared the Anvil).

Why would King Harrowmont allow the templars or the mages in Orzammar when he isolates the Great Thaig from the surface? Why would King Bhelen allow the templars or the Chantry of Andraste to gain any degree of control and dilute his authority? The Warden's aid to Brother Burkel allows the establishment of a Chantry in Orzammar, but I don't see this step ever allowing him to get a foreign military presence placed there.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then, the Circle would fall under Orzammar jurisdiction when Burkel is slain and the Andrastian converts are kicked out of Orzammar, thus eliminating the Chantry's influence from staining Orzammar. The King would then talk to the mages and allow them to live freely in exchange for fighting the Darkspawn, and would establish a regiment of Dwarven Templars that would only exist to kill Abominations and maleficarum that sacrificed innocent lives.

I don't see a Circle of Magi arising in Orzammar in the canon of Brother Burkel being given aid, and my Surana Warden never helped out Brother Burkel. I'd imagine the building where he would have established his own Chantry could be where the independent Circle of Magi sets up shop. Otherwise, I can see free mages flocking to Amaranthine knowing that the new Arl thinks the Circle of Ferelden should be given its autonomy.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wrong. This is what the game's citizens actually believed. I'll try and dig up the actual source, but IIRC it's something that Duncan said Thedas' citizens believed in the Origin stories.

Okay, bad wording on my part, sorry for that. I guess one shouldn't post at 5 AM while hopped up on vicodin and every OTC cold&flu medication in North America. I didn't mean it isn't referenced in-game, I meant that it's so ridiculous there HAS to be more to the story than the few lines we heard. "We wiped out the darkspawn" is too big of a claim for it to have been believed by the entire surface world without there being something more to it than some of the survivors of Ayesleigh being drunken braggarts. Unless everyone in the world was as dumb as a Kirkwallian, there just has to be more to it. My personal belief is that they indeed did wipe out the darkspawn, but they didn't destroy the source of the taint and so it just began again. But that's nothing more than my own conjecture, of course.

You and I have radically different definitions of a Blight. A single Alpha and Emissary can command groups of Darkspawn and think, and most citizens on Thedas are hard-pressed to even defeat roving Darkspawn bands during non-Blights.

The shock troop of the darkspawn, a single berserking hurlock can often be a match for numerous opponents at once

Alpha hurlocks are more intelligent and more skilled fighters, often serving as commanders or even generals.

How you can say they're facing stragglers when the entire horde is underground is beyond me.

Because the entire horde is obviously not interested in taking control of Orzammar. If it was, they would. Easily. Look at the sheer size of the Deep Roads, every part of it crawling with darkspawn, and you really think Orzammar could hope to survive it if that army took an active interest in them? Orzammar is likely just another surface exit to the darkspawn. They're interested in the depths so they can search for the old gods locked far below. Thus a surface thaig has little interest for them. Since they live on the outskirts of the darkspawn's natural habitat they obviously have to deal with some, but make no mistake that Orzammar hasn't been threatened by the true devestation of a blight since the days of Dumat.

[LobselVith8]

ladyofpayne wrote...

Anders isn't insane and stupid. But I really need to see mage like Cullen for templars.

The mage antagonists often are insane, which is the problem. Even Gaider, when he posted, wasn't able to provide an alternative POV to the mage antagonists who act like irrational buffons, instead saying it was an opinion. Decimus thinks Hawke is a templar (along with his dwarven and elven companions), Grace wants revenge because Hawke gave her aid, and Orsino loses his sanity because Hawke is victorious against the templars. Is it really an opinion that they are acting insane and stupid, like Gaider said? I don't see the alternative perspective here (nor am I arguing that the mage antagonists were the only ones who were insane and stupid). Decimus thinking that Hawke and his companions are templars isn't rational, Grace wanting revenge because Hawke helped her escape isn't rational, and Orsino losing his mind because Hawke and his companions killed the invading templars who tried to murder them isn't rational. It's not simply insane, it's also stupid.

Why is Decimus attacking Hawke (especially if he's an apostate) when he could he accompanied by people who are definitely not templars, like Merrill? Why is Grace attacking Hawke if he's publicly condemning and advocating the removal of Meredith's dictatorship, not to mention giving aid to mages escaping the Chantry controlled Circle? Why is Orsino losing his mind and becoming a dangerous creature when he's surrounded by mages who need to be protected, and Hawke and his companions are still standing after a wave of templars? I don't even understand the rationale behind the blood mage at the docks during "The Last Straw," - is the blood mage really that upset that Hawke is killing templars and protecting mages? I don't think it's too much to ask for the antagonists to have some semblance of sanity so I'm not going "WTF?" every time Hawke faces one of them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Grace attacks Hawke because she is possessed, and angry at Hawke for her love's death. Decimus attacks Hawke becasue he knows that Hawke must have talked to the Templars (he didn't know that Thrask was mage-friendly though). Tarohne may have an insane goal (to our standards anyway), but she has a very clear reason to attack Hawke.

Orsino is pretty much the only one, which can be hard to explain. Even then only from the mage-supporter perspective. Though the reason was clear enough. He had simply lost hope. Even if Hawke curbstomps the waves sent against them, Orsino knows Hawke stands no chance against the army of Templars waiting outside, and he simply loses hope for survival.

[dragonflight288]

So long as Bioware has learned from their mistake in dealing with mages in DA2, I'll be happy. They've had such great successes like Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic and Dragon Age Origins that one glaring mistake like that isn't enough to make me turn away from the franchise entirely, just more cautious in what they offer.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ladyofpayne wrote...

Anders isn't insane and stupid. But I really need to see mage like Cullen for templars.

The mage antagonists often are insane, which is the problem. Even Gaider, when he posted, wasn't able to provide an alternative POV to the mage antagonists who act like irrational buffons, instead saying it was an opinion. Decimus thinks Hawke is a templar (along with his dwarven and elven companions), Grace wants revenge because Hawke gave her aid, and Orsino loses his sanity because Hawke is victorious against the templars. Is it really an opinion that they are acting insane and stupid, like Gaider said? I don't see the alternative perspective here (nor am I arguing that the mage antagonists were the only ones who were insane and stupid). Decimus thinking that Hawke and his companions are templars isn't rational, Grace wanting revenge because Hawke helped her escape isn't rational, and Orsino losing his mind because Hawke and his companions killed the invading templars who tried to murder them isn't rational. It's not simply insane, it's also stupid.

Why is Decimus attacking Hawke (especially if he's an apostate) when he could he accompanied by people who are definitely not templars, like Merrill? Why is Grace attacking Hawke if he's publicly condemning and advocating the removal of Meredith's dictatorship, not to mention giving aid to mages escaping the Chantry controlled Circle? Why is Orsino losing his mind and becoming a dangerous creature when he's surrounded by mages who need to be protected, and Hawke and his companions are still standing after a wave of templars? I don't even understand the rationale behind the blood mage at the docks during "The Last Straw," - is the blood mage really that upset that Hawke is killing templars and protecting mages? I don't think it's too much to ask for the antagonists to have some semblance of sanity so I'm not going "WTF?" every time Hawke faces one of them.

I actually understand Grace - emotion aren't rational and some people are ruled more by emotion than logic without being insane.  My wish for best served cold would be that Grace turned on pro-mage Hawke because of Decimus and Trask turns on pro-templar Hawke because he sees Hawke as Meridiths lapdog.

Tarohne wasn't crazy for attacking Hawke either - and she had a plan.The problem was that the plan was brutal and her motivation was evil - Her motivation was to rule all normal people after all.
Decimus was stupid - escpially when Hawke defend herself/himself by using magic. That should have told Decimus that Hawke was worth talking with - He was overly paranoid which is a form of crazy. Orsino was badly executed. Should he abo****ely turn on pro-mage Hawke then we should have felt the templars overpower us, for example by making showing a cutscene of pro-mage Hawke and the mages beginning to lose the battle.

Modifié par esper, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So long as Bioware has learned from their mistake in dealing with mages in DA2, I'll be happy. They've had such great successes like Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic and Dragon Age Origins that one glaring mistake like that isn't enough to make me turn away from the franchise entirely, just more cautious in what they offer.

How is ME not on that list?  I hate shooters, and it's still one of my favorite games/series ever.

[Ryzaki]

...I'm still facepalming over the lack of attacking Grace and Peatrice options. We can kill poor Javaris just for being a loser but not those two? WTF?

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

...I'm still facepalming over the lack of attacking Grace and Peatrice options. We can kill poor Javaris just for being a loser but not those two? WTF?

"Plot armour -- not just for the protagonist anymore."

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
"Plot armour -- not just for the protagonist anymore."

Might be a little bit better to stomach if Hawke couldn't threaten them with death right beforehand. 

[dragonflight288]

How is ME not on that list? I hate shooters, and it's still one of my favorite games/series ever.

True. How in the world did I miss that?

[Dave of Canada]

Talk with Grace in Act 2 after she's been captured, they set up her hatred for Hawke quite earlier than Best Served Cold.

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Talk with Grace in Act 2 after she's been captured, they set up her hatred for Hawke quite earlier than Best Served Cold.

Yeah, she blames Hawke pretty early on. And you aren't even given option to respond to her accusations in any manner.

/facepalms all around

[dragonflight288]

And not every gamer will click on her in Act 2, or even visit the Gallows except when they have to for quests.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So? What would talking back at her help? She is set on hating hawke. And the ones who won't ever talk to her... Well, then it is their own damn mistake for not seeing her revenge comming.

[tmp7704]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So? What would talking back at her help? She is set on hating hawke.

Only because the game is written in this way. With this logic you can question what's the point of oh, half of other dialogue in the game, if not more.

But it could just as well instead allow you to actually change her mind, say, by pointing out how dumb it is to blame Hawke when he/she was the one to let her free in the first place.

Except then a quest in the game would become an optional event as a result of player's actions (or lack thereof) Noes.

And the ones who won't ever talk to her... Well, then it is their own damn mistake for not seeing her revenge comming.

So, it's fault of the player if they don't talk to her and thus don't see her revenge coming. But these who do talk with her and do see it coming and do want to do something about it in advance.... aren't allowed to. And you still don't see the problem here?

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 septembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

tmp7704 wrote...

Only because the game is written in this way. With this logic you can question what's the point of oh, half of other dialogue in the game, if not more.

But it could just as well instead allow you to actually change her mind, say, by pointing out how dumb it is to blame Hawke when he/she was the one to let her free in the first place.

Except then a quest in the game would become an optional event as a result of player's actions (or lack thereof) Noes.

Yeah,  this. What really got me about Grace was that in like act 2, when I click on her, she's berating me for her capture because.....i didn't give them food, money, and tickets to Disneyland? After.....freeing them and covering for them? And she had given me her staff, too, when I let her go. Nor did she ask for anything, and she could have kept her staff and sold it somewhere. But....she's blaming me. For freeing her.

Which  goes back to the original question in the topic. Because this is pretty much what Grace is: insane and stupid.

[Shadow Fox]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So? What would talking back at her help? She is set on hating hawke. And the ones who won't ever talk to her... Well, then it is their own damn mistake for not seeing her revenge comming.

It's revenge only if you sent her to the Templars otherwise she's an ingrate who's blaming Hawke for her own idiocy The Templars would have killed her and her cohorts on the spot for practicing BM if not for Hawke and Thrask and how does she thank them?By trying to kill you and your sister/brother/lover/bff and killing Thrask.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why should the surface offer aid to the Dwarves, when the Dwarves have never expressed any need for assistance? Unless the Dwarves express a need for assistance the surface will assume they are doing fine (as fine as they can anyway).

Remember that the surface (Ferelden anyway) did offer to aid the Dwarves, as soon as the Dwarves asked. Granted, only after the Dwarves also aided Ferelden. Funny how that works.

Therein lies the problem. That the Dwarves get aid against the Darkspawn when the DN or DC asks for it because they helped defeat the Blight. And yet the Dwarves get no support in the other origin stories despite them helping Ferelden defeat the Blight.

People simply didn't care about the Dwarves' plight until a Dwarf practically demanded help.

[Rifneno]

Grace's idiocy makes no sense for one simple reason: she was okay with Hawke seconds after seeing Hawke violently kill Decimus. Self defense and justified? Of course, but people don't stop and say "let me look at it from their point of view..." while watching someone beat the love of their life to death with a hammer. If she gets through that without freaking out, I don't see her creating some revenge plan so ridiculous it would make the Joker go, "why don't you just skip this crap and shoot him?" 7 years later.