1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Therein lies the problem. That the Dwarves get aid against the Darkspawn when the DN or DC asks for it because they helped defeat the Blight. And yet the Dwarves get no support in the other origin stories despite them helping Ferelden defeat the Blight.

People simply didn't care about the Dwarves' plight until a Dwarf practically demanded help.

With the way they treat their own people for having the wrong parent, I don't really care about their plight now.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Grace's idiocy makes no sense for one simple reason: she was okay with Hawke seconds after seeing Hawke violently kill Decimus. Self defense and justified? Of course, but people don't stop and say "let me look at it from their point of view..." while watching someone beat the love of their life to death with a hammer. If she gets through that without freaking out, I don't see her creating some revenge plan so ridiculous it would make the Joker go, "why don't you just skip this crap and shoot him?" 7 years later.

I think she started out as just being bitter, but was possessed sometime while she was in the Gallows.

[Dave of Canada]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yeah,  this. What really got me about Grace was that in like act 2, when I click on her, she's berating me for her capture because.....i didn't give them food, money, and tickets to Disneyland?

She says more than that too.

She says that there's no way the Templars could've tracked her down, they wouldn't have kept looking for her (because she's supposedly dead) unless somebody told the Templar the mages had lived and were running. As she reasons the only person who could've told them was Hawke, she's pissed off at you.

It isn't illogical to hate somebody who let you run away without food, money or shelter and still think they sent the dogs after you.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:02 .

[Ryzaki]

What's amusing about that is the Hawke who actually sent her to the circle gets no angry "OMG HOW COULD YOU" comments. XD

[Morroian]

Ryzaki wrote...

What's amusing about that is the Hawke who actually sent her to the circle gets no angry "OMG HOW COULD YOU" comments. XD

But she wouldn't view that as a betrayal like when she thinks you let her loose but then turned her in.

[Aggie Punbot]

Am I the only one that thinks that the fate of Grace and Decimus could easily be the future of a Hawke and romanced Anders?

[Dave of Canada]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Am I the only one that thinks that the fate of Grace and Decimus could easily be the future of a Hawke and romanced Anders?

Non-Mage Hawke: THE TEMPLAR, THEY'VE COME FOR US.
Justice-Anders: *Justice* No, these mortals are innocent! *Anders* Stay your hand, love!
Non-Mage Hawke: THE DEAD WILL MEET MY CALL.
*Hawke picks up a corpse and throws it at protagonist 3*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:10 .

[Xilizhra]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Am I the only one that thinks that the fate of Grace and Decimus could easily be the future of a Hawke and romanced Anders?

Well, let's see here. Both of them are totally fine with using blood magic, Anders hates it and Justice hates it even more. So... yep, I think you are.

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

She says more than that too.

She says that there's no way the Templars could've tracked her down, they wouldn't have kept looking for her (because she's supposedly dead) unless somebody told the Templar the mages had lived and were running. As she reasons the only person who could've told them was Hawke, she's pissed off at you.

It isn't illogical to hate somebody who let you run away without food, money or shelter and still think they sent the dogs after you.

It is however quite illogical to presume the very person who'd allowed you to escape and covered for you has then ratted you out (something they could've done easily instead of covering your escape in the first place) while actively ignoring that the knight-commander in charge of your circle is the kind of a person who would always keep looking, unless provided with actual dead body with matching dental records.

[Meltemph]

Between Enigma of Kirkwall and that codex about kirkwall in Legacy, I'd say mages are stupid/crazy in the game is because, well... Kirkwall has issues.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

She says more than that too.

She says that there's no way the Templars could've tracked her down, they wouldn't have kept looking for her (because she's supposedly dead) unless somebody told the Templar the mages had lived and were running. As she reasons the only person who could've told them was Hawke, she's pissed off at you.

It isn't illogical to hate somebody who let you run away without food, money or shelter and still think they sent the dogs after you.

It is however quite illogical to presume the very person who'd allowed you to escape and covered for you has then ratted you out (something they could've done easily instead of covering your escape in the first place) while actively ignoring that the knight-commander in charge of your circle is the kind of a person who would always keep looking, unless provided with actual dead body with matching dental records.

For Meredith, she wouldn't stop looking if you presented her with a dead body and matching dentals. She'd traverse the Fade and invade the Maker's sanctuary where the souls of the dead go after dying searching for the mages.

....she's responsible for the Darkspawn!

[Aggie Punbot]

Xilizhra wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Am I the only one that thinks that the fate of Grace and Decimus could easily be the future of a Hawke and romanced Anders?

Well, let's see here. Both of them are totally fine with using blood magic, Anders hates it and Justice hates it even more. So... yep, I think you are.

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit then.

Decimus has clearly gone insane due to his anger/fear/distrust of templars and how mages are treated. Due to his contact with a demon, his sanity has slipped to the point where he can't even discern a genuine threat from innocent parties (Anders and Ella anyone?). His lover, Grace, tries to make him see reason but it comes as too little, too late and he is killed. She then later decides to pursue vengeance for the death of her beloved: someone she describes as having been 'the bravest man I've ever known.' She informs Hawke that Decimus was the one that showed her properly just how badly mages are treated. Does any of this sound familiar to you?

- Decimus loses his grip on his sanity due to his contact with a demon.
- Anders is losing his grip on his sanity due to his contact with a spirit.

- Decimus's initial cause was to fight the injustice towards mages (as stated by Grace).
- Anders's cause is to fight the injustice towards mages.

- Grace's loyalty and support does nothing to help Decimus, as he is ultimately killed for his actions (resorting to blood magic).
- Hawke's loyalty and support will do nothing to prevent all of Kirkwall (and possibly beyond) from hunting Anders down due to his actions (the Jengaing of the chantry and the death of the Grand Cleric).

Does this make things a little clearer for you? Decimus and Grace are what Hawke and Anders could end up like if certain steps are not taken (or taken to prevent it).

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 07 septembre 2011 - 12:32 .

[Rifneno]

Dave of Canada wrote...

She says more than that too.

She says that there's no way the Templars could've tracked her down, they wouldn't have kept looking for her (because she's supposedly dead) unless somebody told the Templar the mages had lived and were running. As she reasons the only person who could've told them was Hawke, she's pissed off at you.

It isn't illogical to hate somebody who let you run away without food, money or shelter and still think they sent the dogs after you.

That makes some sense, but then it leaves the question: how did they find her?

TS2Aggie wrote...

Am I the only one that thinks that the fate of Grace and Decimus could easily be the future of a Hawke and romanced Anders?

I sure hope so. It would be depressing to think many people could reach such a ridiculous conclusion.

Meltemph wrote...

Between Enigma of Kirkwall and that codex about kirkwall in Legacy, I'd say mages are stupid/crazy in the game is because, well... Kirkwall has issues.

Naturally, but it's extremely poor storytelling. Such a pivotal part of the story shouldn't only be available to forumgoers and compulsive codex librarians, which combined probably make up less than a percent of the total playerbase. More importantly, much more importantly, it's not feasible that Kirkwall's veil had this much of an effect and it's gone widely unnoticed. Some people are dense, sure, but this requires everyone to be dense. In a major city. For a thousand years. It didn't take them all that long to look around the Love Canal, rub their chins, and say "this place sure has a lot of diseases that could be explained by some **** burying tens of thousands of tons of toxic waste..." Now imagine that it's something far more dramatic, affecting a far larger area, for a far longer time. I can buy that natives wouldn't notice it because they never knew different, but the city's full of foreigners. Including the PC. And a former Circle mage. And the captain of the guard who was married to a templar in a sane country.

[Xilizhra]

I personally think Hawke just sees more stupid/crazy mages than usual because they're the ones causing trouble that needs a quest to stop.

[The Baconer]

Rifneno wrote...
That makes some sense, but then it leaves the question: how did they find her?

Obviously her ineptitude eclipses that of even the templars.

[Wulfram]

Grace is stupid, but her craziness really makes far more sense than the actions of the rest of the members of that conspiracy. At least she has some sort of reason for attacking Hawke.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Dave of Canada wrote...


She says more than that too.

She says that there's no way the Templars could've tracked her down, they wouldn't have kept looking for her (because she's supposedly dead) unless somebody told the Templar the mages had lived and were running. As she reasons the only person who could've told them was Hawke, she's pissed off at you.

It isn't illogical to hate somebody who let you run away without food, money or shelter and still think they sent the dogs after you.

It is illogical when that person actually risked their life and attacked the templars to clear the way for apostates to escape, and killed Kerras and crew. Since Grace was stepping over templar corpses when I let her go, her yelling at me for selling her out or not helping her enough still makes her look like a crazy idiot.

[Xilizhra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...


She says more than that too.

She says that there's no way the Templars could've tracked her down, they wouldn't have kept looking for her (because she's supposedly dead) unless somebody told the Templar the mages had lived and were running. As she reasons the only person who could've told them was Hawke, she's pissed off at you.

It isn't illogical to hate somebody who let you run away without food, money or shelter and still think they sent the dogs after you.

It is illogical when that person actually risked their life and attacked the templars to clear the way for apostates to escape, and killed Kerras and crew. Since Grace was stepping over templar corpses when I let her go, her yelling at me for selling her out or not helping her enough still makes her look like a crazy idiot.

Fun fact: Cullen was tortured by demons, not mages. He still hates mages, despite the fact that he was definitely rescued by one and possibly more. Would he also qualify as a crazy idiot?

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fun fact: Cullen was tortured by demons, not mages. He still hates mages, despite the fact that he was definitely rescued by one and possibly more. Would he also qualify as a crazy idiot?

Cullen doesn't hate Mages.  He fears them and dehumanizes them.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fun fact: Cullen was tortured by demons, not mages. He still hates mages, despite the fact that he was definitely rescued by one and possibly more. Would he also qualify as a crazy idiot?

He was tortured by mages. He tells you this when you meet him in the Broken Circle quest, about the blood mages mind raping him and such. Blood mages digging deep into his mind and torturing him. Demons were certainly summoned to help out, but it was pretty clear in that convo that he was being tortured and mind raped by Uldred and his cohorts

Cullen is still pretty mental, I think. Not screaming batsh*t crazy like Meredith, but still disturbed. Idiot? Maybe. But he never runs around screaming and blaming Hawke for something stupid.

[Xilizhra]

Uldred and his cohorts were all abominations by that point. There were no human mages on floors above the sloth demon, only a few stragglers also trying to fight off the abominations on lower floors. And he knew that Uldred was one; he refers to looking into Uldred's eyes when there was nothing human left in them.
Also note that Cullen's torment could have only lasted for a few weeks. Grace had six years. Also remember that this sort of thing isn't without precedent; Huon was largely fine before he went into the Gallows, but when he came out, he was completely nuts. Bethany was hellishly lucky.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Grace attacks Hawke because she is possessed, and angry at Hawke for her love's death.

Grace asked for Hawke's help immediately after Decimus' death, and if Hawke aids her, she gives him her staff from Starkhaven. The fact that she's re-captured and blames Hawke is a very poor motivation for an antagonist, because Hawke killed a myraid of templars to secure the freedom of Grace and her other Starkhaven mage companions.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Decimus attacks Hawke becasue he knows that Hawke must have talked to the Templars (he didn't know that Thrask was mage-friendly though).

There's no evidence that's true. Decimus calls Hawke and his companions out as templars, and Grace points out the obvious truth: they aren't templars. That doesn't hault Decimus' idiocy, though. This scene is even more ridiculous when you consider Merrill - a Dalish elf, part of a clan and race who are universally hunted by the templars across Thedas, which is why they are nomadic in the first place - can accompany Hawke.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tarohne may have an insane goal (to our standards anyway), but she has a very clear reason to attack Hawke.

Purple lips Tarohne sounded like an insane lunatic. Again, another insane mage antagonist. I don't see why sanity is too much to ask for in antagonists - Morrowind and New Vegas had plenty of antagonists who kept their sanity and had reasons for attacking the protagonist without resorting to idiocy or insanity.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Orsino is pretty much the only one, which can be hard to explain. Even then only from the mage-supporter perspective. Though the reason was clear enough. He had simply lost hope. Even if Hawke curbstomps the waves sent against them, Orsino knows Hawke stands no chance against the army of Templars waiting outside, and he simply loses hope for survival.

So Orsino decides to become a Harvester when he's in the vicinity of the mages he's supposed to protect, which means becoming a mindless creature who will attack the only people nearby - namely, the mages and Hawke? Is it honestly too much to hope for antagonists to simply make sense in the future?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Uldred and his cohorts were all abominations by that point. There were no human mages on floors above the sloth demon, only a few stragglers also trying to fight off the abominations on lower floors. And he knew that Uldred was one; he refers to looking into Uldred's eyes when there was nothing human left in them.
Also note that Cullen's torment could have only lasted for a few weeks. Grace had six years. Also remember that this sort of thing isn't without precedent; Huon was largely fine before he went into the Gallows, but when he came out, he was completely nuts. Bethany was hellishly lucky.

Weeks or month. Depending on when the Warden enters the tower. That there were no more fully human mages left by the time you got there. Before you got there, however, its a different story. There were still blood mages on that level, though, there was one who was controlling the templars. And as I said, Cullen was talking about the mages themselves mind raping him.

Even after they all become abominations, it makes perfect sense for Cullen to dislike/hate them. An abomination was a mage, and it was mages who dabbled in the blood magic and summoned the demons that almost wiped out the Circle. Mages, not demons, started it all. What came next was pretty much their doing. They became abominations because of their own actions, or because of the actions of Uldred.

regardless, it all comes down to mages. Which is why I do not blame Cullen for being off his rocker about mages, as he has had an experience that gives him very valid reasons to hate or distrust mages. Cullen only remains a problem because he is still put in charge of mages in a Circle, instead of being deployed somewhere else away from mages. His experience with the mages would make him generally unsuitable for being in charge of them. He should have been stationed guarding a Chantry, or some other templar assignment away from Circles.

I still don't see what this has to do with Grace. Hawke could be nice, risk their lives to save them from the templars, and help them escape, yet the stupid cow is still ranting and blaming Hawke in Act 2. I know the Gallows is bad. If she got caught after what Hawke did for her, then its her fault. Blaming Hawke just makes her look like a complete ingrate and an idiot.

[Xilizhra]

I still don't see what this has to do with Grace. Hawke could be nice, risk their lives to save them from the templars, and help them escape, yet the stupid cow is still ranting and blaming Hawke in Act 2. I know the Gallows is bad. If she got caught after what Hawke did for her, then its her fault. Blaming Hawke just makes her look like a complete ingrate and an idiot.

She doesn't actually blame Hawke actively until Act 3, when it seems she's already been possessed.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

I still don't see what this has to do with Grace. Hawke could be nice, risk their lives to save them from the templars, and help them escape, yet the stupid cow is still ranting and blaming Hawke in Act 2. I know the Gallows is bad. If she got caught after what Hawke did for her, then its her fault. Blaming Hawke just makes her look like a complete ingrate and an idiot.

She doesn't actually blame Hawke actively until Act 3, when it seems she's already been possessed.

Sure she does. Clicking on her in act 2, and she ranting about how Hawke freed her without giving her money or food, or whatever, and how she got caught by templars, and how Hawke probably planned it that way or something,and hopes Hawke is happy, ect

Act 3 is just the icing on the cake when Grace goes full blown batsh*t abomination. Act 2 Grace is not an abomination. Which makes it even more idiotic.