1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

Reasonable reasons?  Sure.  Reasons that'll apply to all PCs?  More difficult.

Reasons that can apply in general, for most players and the PCs they are playing. That's the point of a grey area. That's why I felt that the mage/templar issue was more grey in origins than it was in DA2, even though in DA2, it was supposed to be the central focus of the story. As opposed to Origins, where it was but only a fraction of the overall story, but much better developed-scene setting.

Connor wasn't an antagonist, apart from when he was a crazy possessed abomination.

No, but it was the fact that he was a mage who became an atagonist due to his circumstance that made it interesting. In otherwords, he wasn't attacking you or summoning corpses for the lulz (well, the demon was, but it is how the demon got there in the first place that is my point) or for no reason. He was an atagonist because he was an innocent victim of cirumstances in birth and the adults around him.

[Wulfram]

Lobselvith, I was assuming you were talking about more general antagonists than just people who will fight back if you choose to attack them.

There are in fact quite a few mages in DA2 who don't appear particularly crazy who you can end up fighting if you choose to. Merrill, maybe Anders, Feynriel, some escaped Elf Blood Mages, the blood mages in "the Last Hold outs", various people in the Tower of Magi.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Lobselvith, I was assuming you were talking about more general antagonists than just people who will fight back if you choose to attack them.

There are in fact quite a few mages in DA2 who don't appear particularly crazy who you can end up fighting if you choose to. Merrill, maybe Anders, Feynriel, some escaped Elf Blood Mages, the blood mages in "the Last Hold outs", various people in the Tower of Magi.

It isn't mandatory to fight Anders and Merrill, it only happens if Hawke sides with Meredith because one of them will protect the Circle of Kirkwall from Hawke and the templars. As for quests that aren't mandatory, there are mages who aren't insane and stupid, like Danarius, who I referenced earlier, but there are more than a few mage antagonists who are stupid and insane in the main quests that are mandatory, like Decimus, Quentin, Huon, Grace, and Endgame Orsino.

I don't see a reason for a pro-mage Hawke to be pitted against mage antagonists who seem to want the same thing that he does - it takes me out of the narrative. If Hawke is an apostate who doesn't believe in the Chantry controlled Circles, why did the developers force him to fight Decimus? If Hawke is against the Knight-Commander's dictatorship and has aided the mage underground, why is Grace fighting him? If the Champion of Kirkwall has defeated a horde of templars with no casualties among his moiety crew, why is Orsino losing his mind? I don't even see how it makes sense that a Circle mage from Kirkwall even knows Quentin, even if he's from the Starkhaven Circle, or why Orsino would care about Quentin's experiments when they have no benefical applications.

It seems like plot railroading the protagonist into fights with enemies for the sake of fighting, even if the attacks don't make sense in the context of the narrative. The fight with Endgame Orsino, for instance, was explained by David Gaider to be the result of a need for "another fight" for a pro-mage Hawke (according to the cosplayers Gaider spoke with).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 07 septembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[Wulfram]

Then what you're asking for is not more sane mage antagonists. You're asking for less mandatory mage antagonists.

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Connor wasn't an antagonist, apart from when he was a crazy possessed abomination.

It's still possible for an actual antagonist to be one as result of circumstances forcing them into it. Say, due to blackmail or similar means. Rather than insanity or "just being evil".

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Then what you're asking for is not more sane mage antagonists. You're asking for less mandatory mage antagonists.

I'm still asking for sane mage antagonists. If Hawke wanted to protect the Starkhaven mages from the templars, he could have fought against Circle mages who were Loyalists along with Ser Kerras and his templars. If Hawke wanted to aid Ser Thrask and the allied templars and mages, the Champion could have faced off against templars and mages who were loyal to Meredith without anyone descending into madness for reasons that are utterly ridiculous. Since there were a myraid of proto-Harvesters escaping from Amgarrak after The Warden escaped, Orsino didn't need to lose his mind for absolutely no reason in order to pit Hawke against a dangerous Harvester. Again, it has nothing to do with fighting mages, but for those confrontations to make sense - making the antagonists insane and stupid doesn't really help, no matter how many clandestine codex entries they shove into the narrative.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, Irving practices entrapment on apprentices whom he'll then agree to Tranquilize, Greagoir imprisons nonmages for... well, not that much, and Anders says in few uncertain terms that Kinloch Hold really sucks, it's just that the Gallows is even worse. Greagoir and Irving are both status quo-loving ****s.

What non mages does Gregoire imprison, that he doesn't have the reason or authority to do so?

Anyway, you're missing the point. Gregoire and irving weren't running club med, nor were they a team of peace and perfect harmony. They aren't supposed to be. The point was that while strict and somewhat oppresive, Kinloch Hold still maintained a grey area balance in representation. You had two people running the place who were rational and sane, and at least trying to work together. About the only three people I remember in the magi Origin who seemed a bit mentally unhinged were Sweeney (who was more old and senile than anything), Kelli (who was just a brainwashed, broken Chantry failure) and Cullen. Who, well, is Cullen.

In the Gallows, you had two complete idiots who were antagonizing each other constantly, though one was better at hiding than the other. You have a Circle that resembles part madhouse, part Turkish prison, and I have tranquils wandering around thanking ser Alrik for lobotomizing them, and talking about how they will get beaten if the break something, or something gets stolen from the store. It was no longer a question of whether or not the Circle and templars are necessary evils, or all those nice grey areas that were just barely introduced in Origins. It became a choice between siding with one group of of completely deranged idiots over the other deranged idiots. So I ended up siding against the idiots who ended up pissing me off even more. The templars. The mages mostly just made me facepalm and lol.

[Wulfram]

I'm coming to the conclusion we don't actually disagree on this, so I guess I'll stop arguing

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

Then what you're asking for is not more sane mage antagonists. You're asking for less mandatory mage antagonists.

I don't see how the two are exclusive. A person does not have to be insane or evil, for me to want to side against them. What I would like are antagonists who can be reasonably sided with, or against.

Loghain was a classic example of this, though he was not a mage. I do not see why a mage can't be written in similar fashion. Not the exact same scenario, or even a similar one. But the general idea: that even your enemies do things for very complicated, grey reasons that could very well make sense. That just because they oppose you, does not mean they do so because they are epic stupid retards or laughably insane moustache twirliers. That their reasons to oppose you, or attack you, make sense from their own perspective.

Let's say I'm Grace. I'm an apostate. My crazy blood mage boyfriend, who was summoning corpses and crap to attack this stranger, who turns out is there to help me. Decimus the idiot is insane and attacks this nice stranger anyway, who is forced to defend themselves. And of course, I, Grace, obviously do not agree with him, since I ran away from the fight and took no part. After Decimus is dead, I am very sad. Yet this kind stranger, who had no choice but to defend themselves, had no hard feelings, and still believed I should be able to leave, despite what Decimus does. In fact, this kind stranger, with their three humble companions, has even offered, at my suggestion, to go outside and kill the templars trying to capture me, of which there are more of them than the nice stranger and their party. So the stranger and their humble group go out and take on a bunch of templars, risking their lives for a group of apostates whose leader just used blood magic and necromancy to try and kill Hawke and co. And they manage to kill them all, except Thrask, lets them go as well. Why, I'm so grateful I even INSIST this nice stranger take my nifty staff as a gift!

Fast forward three years later. I've been caught by the templars anyway and am stuck in the Gallows. This nice stranger shows up. And I do....what exactly? Yell at them and accuse them of some grand plot in cahoots with the templars to recapture me? Yell at them for sending me off with no food or clothing, despite that, oh...Hawke had none of these things to give at the time (seeing how they were still slumming it up at Gamlen's crib in Act 1). And Grace gave her a freaking staff that could have been sold off for money?

How is this anything but insane, stupid, or ridiculously lame?

[Miashi]

Harid wrote...

Generally speaking in Bioware games, everyone is incompetent and stupid besides your main character.

What?... no? Irenicus?

[Wulfram]

They're not exclusive, but they are different. But this isn't an argument I find worth having any more.

I'm not sure why you think I need to be convinced that Grace was insane.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

They're not exclusive, but they are different. But this isn't an argument I find worth having any more.

I'm not sure why you think I need to be convinced that Grace was insane.

The part about Grace was directed elsewhere, sorry.

Anyways, for me, it is an arguement of lazy, bad writing was what I was getting at. 2 dimensional clownish antagonists don't make for a thought provoking game or story.

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Branka went insane trying to find a way to defeat the darkspawn from annihilating her race, and was coherent enough not to try to murder The Warden or Oghren unless they opposed her goal. Tahrone never bothers to ask whether an apostate Hawke (or a nomal Hawke with apostate companions) will aid her. And she looks and sounds like she's an Archdemon short of a Blight...

Maybe that has to do with the fact that Hawke just blasted through all of the sanctuary's defenses. Though I'm curious if your Hawke would aid her...

Tarohne doesn't say that, though.  She just says she wants you as experimental material.  Which makes no sense, since her goal is to infest templars and send them back into templar ranks- actually not a bad plan, if you are trying to take down the order.  A Hawke who is supporting the mage underground should have the option of helping her.

A lot of these situations feel like stories that have good elements, that could have been compelling, but suffer from railroading since I guess the devs did not have enough time to account for actual branching choices in the game.

As pro-mage as I am, I wouldn't help Tarohne because it could lead to the deaths of some of the few good Templars Kirkwall's Circle has or even various mages. It's far too risky.

Now if Tarohne had some way to control who gets killed....

[Xilizhra]

Anyway, you're missing the point. Gregoire and irving weren't running club med, nor were they a team of peace and perfect harmony. They aren't supposed to be. The point was that while strict and somewhat oppresive, Kinloch Hold still maintained a grey area balance in representation. You had two people running the place who were rational and sane, and at least trying to work together. About the only three people I remember in the magi Origin who seemed a bit mentally unhinged were Sweeney (who was more old and senile than anything), Kelli (who was just a brainwashed, broken Chantry failure) and Cullen. Who, well, is Cullen.

If Irving had been First Enchanter of Kirkwall, I'm fairly certain that the Circle of Magi would have to be renamed the Circle of Tranquil within a month.
If Orsino had been First Enchanter of Ferelden, there'd be less of a need to keep any blood mage issues hidden and his actually giving a crap about his people might translate to a more fully balanced distribution of authority.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...


She says more than that too.

She says that there's no way the Templars could've tracked her down, they wouldn't have kept looking for her (because she's supposedly dead) unless somebody told the Templar the mages had lived and were running. As she reasons the only person who could've told them was Hawke, she's pissed off at you.

It isn't illogical to hate somebody who let you run away without food, money or shelter and still think they sent the dogs after you.

It is illogical when that person actually risked their life and attacked the templars to clear the way for apostates to escape, and killed Kerras and crew. Since Grace was stepping over templar corpses when I let her go, her yelling at me for selling her out or not helping her enough still makes her look like a crazy idiot.

Fun fact: Cullen was tortured by demons, not mages. He still hates mages, despite the fact that he was definitely rescued by one and possibly more. Would he also qualify as a crazy idiot?

Fun Fact: It was Mages who willingly summoned said demons to torture him so yes he does have a reason to fear mages in general

PS: Not every player's warden was a mage thus you really can't use that argument since the game doesn't reconize what class your warden was.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 07 septembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Cullen wasn't tortured by demons... It was the blood mages.

[TEWR]

Those blood mages may have been Abominations. Seeing as how not all Abominations don the meatball flesh suit, Cullen may have made a mistake.

Either way, they were either mages or former mages who are responsible for what happened (or were caught up in what happened), so Cullen's hatred or whatever you want to call it of mages is understandable.

Though I wish DAII had made him revert on his stance. He's seen how bad both Mages and Templars can be, so he should've become a more fair-minded person. Understanding that Mages are people just like him, but that there should be some sort of system that allows for a fair balance.

Question: What was his exact line regarding Mages in DAII?

[phaonica]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Question: What was his exact line regarding Mages in DAII?

This one?

"Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me...They are weapons."

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par phaonica, 07 septembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[Harid]

Miashi wrote...

Harid wrote...

Generally speaking in Bioware games, everyone is incompetent and stupid besides your main character.

What?... no? Irenicus?

He lets you live in Spellhold for no good reason whatsoever.

And he could have taken Bhallspirts from. . .any other bhallspawn other than the one that I dunno, saved Baldur's Gate and defeated Sarevok.  All he had to do was build them up, like Imoen.  I don't recall any rationalization as to why he chose you other than pushing the story forward.

But even ignoring this.  One exception doesn't prove a rule.

[Addai]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
PS: Not every player's warden was a mage thus you really can't use that argument since the game doesn't reconize what class your warden was.

You always have to take that old bat Wynne with you, however.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

You always have to take that old bat Wynne with you, however.

You can kill her if you want to, can't you?  When you first meet her?

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 septembre 2011 - 10:14 .

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You always have to take that old bat Wynne with you, however.

You can kill her if you want to, can't you?  When you first meet her?

That's true - if The Warden agrees with Morrigan, or later on if he agrees with Cullen.

[DreGregoire]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
since the game doesn't reconize what class your warden was.

@ the highlighted statement above: This is not true. Certain individuals within Dragon Age Origins recognized you as either a warrior or a rogue. There are obvious different reactions in certain instances. One such instance is how Howe reacts to you in the human noble origin. The game itself gives you different convsersation trees at different times based on race, gender, class, skills, and origins. DA2 does this somewhat but it seems to be more focused on personality than on skills and class.

@ all and back on topic. I don't agree with the whole stupid thing but definately the weakoned veil doesn't help mages and others think clearly. LOL. I guess those with the propensity to be slightly off in the psychological department would be even more likely to be impacted by it. And then there is the whole idea that after DA2 the world is thrown into the chaos as well, we will definately be running into the "insane" many more times before Dragon Age is through.

[DreGregoire]

More about the insane Mages, I used to wonder why they were all hanging around in Kirkwall, but more recently I realized it probably isn't so easy to get out of Kirkwall.

First a mage has to escape the Circle's and the Templar's clutches and then they have to find a way out of Kirkwall, which by the way is crawling with guards, even the seedier areas have patrols. We never get to see the exits from Kirkwall, other than the one by ship. I doubt the mages would chance leaving by ship. I really wish we had a nice detailed map of Kirkwall that would show us the layout and the surrounding areas better. I suddenly realize what other things Anders has been up to. I wouldn't repel down the side of darktown for any amount of money, that's if that even goes anywhere useful. LOL

Modifié par DreGregoire, 07 septembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You always have to take that old bat Wynne with you, however.

You can kill her if you want to, can't you?  When you first meet her?

That's true - if The Warden agrees with Morrigan, or later on if he agrees with Cullen.

Nah, even if you let Wynne live, you don't have to take her to Cullen.  You can switch her out of the party after the Fade.

Edit: Though the party picker being available in that room is very very strange.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 septembre 2011 - 11:35 .