1253 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

It seems to involve blood magic and alot of bodies (in the templar ending, he killed the mages to make his harvester form), so even if I don't know the specifics, it is still something that you just don't do on a trial run like that.

there's no evidence that Orsino actually murdered those mages during the RoA where the Templars also murder all mages.

And it's kinda hard for Orsino or Quentin to know if this ritual even works without practicing it. Problem being, it's a non-reversible ritual.

So either Orsino has an eidetic memory on the workings of the ritual (something I prefer for him to have some characterization, though were I in charge he would have that but wouldn't have gone all Harvestino) or he just got lucky.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you're trying to figure out how a spell works purely by what seems intuitive based on living in a world without magic?

No, I'm going by the lore in the game where this event occurs. Necromancy and advanced blood magic practices are more complicated practices. I think it would make more sense if orsino had at least been dabbling and practicing these things on some level before he pulled his harvestino trick. I highly doubt that he just looked at Quentin's research and said, "hmm, very interesting, I'll put this to the test under extreme circumstances some time." Why would he attempt something like that under extreme conditions if he wasn't sure that it would work?

I've seen that scene, and it didn't sound anything like that to me. I think he only knew what was going on, but cut off contact a bit before Quentin went nuts.

It seemed like that to me, especially when he was rubbing in Hawke's mom dying.

[Heimdall]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So you're trying to figure out how a spell works purely by what seems intuitive based on living in a world without magic?

No, I'm going by the lore in the game where this event occurs. Necromancy and advanced blood magic practices are more complicated practices. I think it would make more sense if orsino had at least been dabbling and practicing these things on some level before he pulled his harvestino trick. I highly doubt that he just looked at Quentin's research and said, "hmm, very interesting, I'll put this to the test under extreme circumstances some time." Why would he attempt something like that under extreme conditions if he wasn't sure that it would work?

  I think it more likely that he only experimented with minor blood magic, but has an incredible memory and so he remembered the details of the ritual from Quentin's notes... or it's a lot easier than we think

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

there's no evidence that Orsino actually murdered those mages during the RoA where the Templars also murder all mages.

He called those mages "willing sacrifices" for his ritual. So those ones, in the templar ending, he did kill. It's only in the mage ending where he uses the corpses of mages who had been murdered by the templars

And it's kinda hard for Orsino or Quentin to know if this ritual even works without practicing it. Problem being, it's a non-reversible ritual.

They would have to at least get some working knowledge of blood magic to see if even the basics were doable.

So either Orsino has an eidetic memory on the workings of the ritual (something I prefer for him to have some characterization, though were I in charge he would have that but wouldn't have gone all Harvestino) or he just got lucky.

And just as likely, he dabbled with blood magic and necromancy while studying it. I can't see him just reading for morbid curiosity's sake, and not at least attempting some things. It was likely there was more than just the harvester ritual in Quentin's "research".

[Xilizhra]

Why would he attempt something like that under extreme conditions if he wasn't sure that it would work?

Because he didn't expect or want to actually use it?

It seemed like that to me, especially when he was rubbing in Hawke's mom dying.

Oh, yes, slam him for being mean about the mother of the PERSON CO-LEADING A GENOCIDE EFFORT AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE.

[phaonica]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But that's not the case. He's actually stating that they aren't people and are just weapons. Like every mage is going to just start murdering innocents like it's nothing and like they're soulless, emotionless beings.

I don't know about that. I think he has some recognition that they are people (or rather to say I don't think he thinks they are soulless or emotionless), but that they can't be treated like people because of how dangerous they are.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would he attempt something like that under extreme conditions if he wasn't sure that it would work?

Because he didn't expect or want to actually use it?

It seemed like that to me, especially when he was rubbing in Hawke's mom dying.

Oh, yes, slam him for being mean about the mother of the PERSON CO-LEADING A GENOCIDE EFFORT AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE.

...except that Bethaney is right next to him when he does it?*if she survived and isn't a Warden*

And looking at how Grace turned out Hawke was doing those Mages a favor by killing them as Kirkwall mages clearly suffer from too dumb to live symdrone.

[Heimdall]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Why would he attempt something like that under extreme conditions if he wasn't sure that it would work?

Desperation?  Panic?  Fear or grief induced insanity?

[Shadow Fox]

phaonica wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But that's not the case. He's actually stating that they aren't people and are just weapons. Like every mage is going to just start murdering innocents like it's nothing and like they're soulless, emotionless beings.

I don't know about that. I think he has some recognition that they are people (or rather to say I don't think he thinks they are soulless or emotionless), but that they can't be treated like people because of how dangerous they are.

That's also what I thought.

[TEWR]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

there's no evidence that Orsino actually murdered those mages during the RoA where the Templars also murder all mages.

He called those mages "willing sacrifices" for his ritual. So those ones, in the templar ending, he did kill. It's only in the mage ending where he uses the corpses of mages who had been murdered by the templars

And it's kinda hard for Orsino or Quentin to know if this ritual even works without practicing it. Problem being, it's a non-reversible ritual.

They would have to at least get some working knowledge of blood magic to see if even the basics were doable.

So either Orsino has an eidetic memory on the workings of the ritual (something I prefer for him to have some characterization, though were I in charge he would have that but wouldn't have gone all Harvestino) or he just got lucky.

And just as likely, he dabbled with blood magic and necromancy while studying it. I can't see him just reading for morbid curiosity's sake, and not at least attempting some things. It was likely there was more than just the harvester ritual in Quentin's "research".

1) Willing sacrifice doesn't mean he murdered them. They could've committed suicide and agreed to be used for the ritual (obviously before they committed suicide). Or Orsino could've discussed the ritual with them, and they agreed that if they died fighting the Templars (with Orsino being the only survivor of the fight), their bodies could be used for the ritual.

Willing could just mean they consented to his plan at any point.


2) Well yea, Orsino would have to have studied the academics and theories of blood magic, but that doesn't make him a practicing blood mage.


3) My rationale for Orsino is something like this:

I'm going off of my memory here, but my personal rationalization for Orsino is something like this:

• Quentin escapes from Starkhaven. Contacts his old buddy Orsino saying he wants to study blood magic and necromancy.
  
  
  
• Orsino delivers books to Quentin at a specific area. He asks that Quentin keep him informed.
  
  
  
• Quentin makes very detailed reports and sends them to Orsino.
  
  
  
• Orsino reads them, and is fascinated by them. Sends Quentin a letter saying as much.
  
  
  
• Quentin then sends Orsino a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual (something I'm unsure of how Quentin managed to figure out), which makes Orsino go "WTF" and he is horrified by it. And he keeps reading it to make sure he's not imagining things.
  
  
  
• Orsino hears about what Quentin was doing, and now says "Maker.... what have I done.... I can't turn him in, because Meredith will bring the Circle down...."
  Orsino was born with an eidetic memory, which is why he was able to remember what the ritual was about. Before that moment, he was only a mage who studied the theory of blood magic, but never actually used it. With Meredith around and her strict rules, I can't see much of an opportunity for him to practice using blood magic.
  
  
  
  
  Sadly, he decides to show off his eidetic memory even to people who have sided with him because Bioware wanted another boss fight.

There's also my belief that Quentin was previously unhinged before his wife died and barely holding on to sanity, and that his wife's death was the stressor in his life that sent him over the edge and made him become a serial killer.

[TEWR]

It seemed like that to me, especially when he was rubbing in Hawke's mom dying.

That Orsino knows about a noble woman's death that affected the soon-to-be-at-that-time Champion of Kirkwall greatly in a city where news of the Kirkwall Killer would spread doesn't mean he stayed in regular contact with Quentin.

Meredith does the same thing in the opening, and she wasn't in contact with Quentin.

More than likely news of who was killed by the Kirkwall Killer (A.K.A the White Lily Killer) spread around during the 3 year interim. Especially since Quentin's targets were noble women IIRC, save for the mage from the Gallows.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 septembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[Morroian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Why would he attempt something like that under extreme conditions if he wasn't sure that it would work?

Desperation?  Panic?  Fear or grief induced insanity?

I've said it before, despair. The problem is the game doesn't do a good job of showing why he should feel despair. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, yes, slam him for being mean about the mother of the PERSON CO-LEADING A GENOCIDE EFFORT AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE.

I could care less about whether he was being mean to por-Templar Hawke, or why. I do care, however, the extent of his knowledge and involvement with Quentin. He was the first enchanter, and he risked his whole Circle by even dabbling with such knowledge. I also care why he was interested in this knowledge. Since we know next to nothing about him (again, due to crappy character/NPC development and writing), we don't know exactly what he wanted with this "research". The nature of Quentin's use and application of blood magic or necromancy weren't exactly for the advancement of mankind, and utilizing blood magic to stitch up patchwork zombie slaves isn't something you read for the lulz and curiosity.

If he was willing to risk himself and the lives of his Circle on something as dangerous and damning as that, he should have had a damned good reason, as well as a plan.

[Xilizhra]

Well, if he had a plan, we don't know it, but given our paucity of knowledge, I doubt it's fair to attack him for not having one.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, if he had a plan, we don't know it, but given our paucity of knowledge, I doubt it's fair to attack him for not having one.

I am attacking the crap and sparse character development and writing more than anything, and Orsino is an example of a character full of holes and disconnected bits of information that told me next to nothing about him. Nothing other than the mystery letter from "O". And for all I knew, "O" could have been anyone, for any reason. Hell, it could have been Oghren for all I knew.

Its an example of why the mages in this game were either portrayed as idiots, crazy, or mad blood mages out to take over the world for the lulz. Lack of explaination or development of important NPCs like orsino makes their actions look idiotic, pointless, and insane. Orsino, when you meet him, comes off as pretty reasonable, sane, and rational. Then suddenly, at the end of the game, we get dropped with the bomb that Orsino was secretly into all sorts of wierd, creepy, and highly questionable stuff, and then he turns harvester on you. Bioware wanted another boss battle I know. And that makes it even more crap writing, because it was pointless, and made no sense.

But beyond the boss battle, everything before doesn't make any sense with Orsino.

[LobselVith8]

phaonica wrote...

I don't know about that. I think he has some recognition that they are people (or rather to say I don't think he thinks they are soulless or emotionless), but that they can't be treated like people because of how dangerous they are.

Dehumanizing the mages doesn't make me empathize with Cullen. I understand that he went through an ordeal, but stating that mages shouldn't be treated like people and referring to them as weapons doesn't make me sympathetic to Cullen. The fact is he's willing to let Meredith kill hundreds of mages for an act none of them are responsible for, but will intervene to stop her on behalf of Hawke (even if he is killing templars to protect the mages who are innocent of Anders' actions). The fact that Cullen will abandon an entire population of people (who are being condemned by Meredith simply for being mages to appease a hypothetical mob) to Meredith's madness but will halt her only when Hawke is specifically threatened makes me see him as a repugnant character.

It's unfortunate that Hawke didn't have the option of fighting and killing Cullen. I really hate how passive Bioware made Hawke...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 septembre 2011 - 02:10 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

He doesn't say that mages aren't humans... He says the mages aren't like normal people... Which they aren't.
And again, the Circle isn't being annulled for Anders' bomb. It is being annulled because Anders' bomb, allowed for Meredith to call it.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He doesn't say that mages aren't humans... He says the mages aren't like normal people... Which they aren't.

Cullen dehumanizes the mages by saying they are weapons, and telling Hawke they shouldn't be treated like people.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again, the Circle isn't being annulled for Anders' bomb. It is being annulled because Anders' bomb, allowed for Meredith to call it.

Meredith makes it clear she's going to execute every last man, woman, and child in the Kirkwall Circle because the mob will "demand blood." That's her reason for enacting the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall. She's going to kill hundreds because of an act that Anders alone is responsible for.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She says that even if she wanted to, she couldn't stop the annulment now, because of the mob. Not that the bomb was the reason for it. But even then, not the mob, nor the bomb, were her reason. She wanted to annull the Circle long before that.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She says that even if she wanted to, she couldn't stop the annulment now, because of the mob.

If a genocidal lunatic says so... I guess it must be true.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not that the bomb was the reason for it. But even then, not the mob, nor the bomb, were her reason. She wanted to annull the Circle long before that.

Meredith never argues any other reason. The Knight-Commander, when trying to persuade Hawke to her side, will only argue in favor for her hypothetical: that "the people will demand blood." That's the only reason she provides for executing hundreds of men, women, and children. She doesn't argue that it's because of insane and stupid mages, she doesn't argue that it's because of blood magic, she doesn't argue anything except for the idea that the "people will demand blood." Meredith never even suggests there's any other explanation for the Right of Annulment she calls upon the Circle of Kirkwall.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She says that even if she wanted to, she couldn't stop the annulment now, because of the mob. Not that the bomb was the reason for it. But even then, not the mob, nor the bomb, were her reason. She wanted to annull the Circle long before that.

She could have publilcy executed Anders, instead of completely ignoring him.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She doesn't completely ignore him. She is either blocked by the mage-supporters, or leaves it to a Templar-supporting Hawke, which she probably assumes would kill Anders on the spot.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She doesn't completely ignore him. She is either blocked by the mage-supporters, or leaves it to a Templar-supporting Hawke, which she probably assumes would kill Anders on the spot.

I can understand it on mage path, but on templars path there is no excuse for ignoring Anders, and my main point is still that she could simply have held and public trial-execution of a some kind to sate the people's need for blood. They just need one criminal to blame after all, and there is gruesome and slow way to execute people if that is the problem.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

You can't always stop a frenzied mob by giving them the guilty man. Sadly. Had Anders not been a mage, then perhaps his public execution could have been enough. He is a amge though, and he went after the only place of sanctum the people have. They are going to project all their fear on to all mages, not just Anders.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can't always stop a frenzied mob by giving them the guilty man. Sadly. Had Anders not been a mage, then perhaps his public execution could have been enough. He is a amge though, and he went after the only place of sanctum the people have. They are going to project all their fear on to all mages, not just Anders.

Yeah... the mob didn't really seem frenzied to me. In fact no ordinary people was rising up and hunting the mages on the way back to the gallows so I think that the city of Kirkwall would have been sated with having a public execution - and any ordinary person fears mages in Thedas, that it was beginning to shift in Kirkwall was just a sign of how bad Meridith was. It is not about projectin fear it is about projecting hatred. Sure the people would not start loving mages after that, but with the way things were I think that they would have been more than satisfied with a public execution. In fact Meridith might have been able to regain the support and respect that she had lost among the ordinary people, because had she had any brain she could have said: A apostate did this and he will pay. You can no longer say that I should go easier on the mages. I am the only thing keeping you safe.

As a pro-mage supporter I am just glad that Meridith was so bad at propaganda, because she could have used Anders in so many ways to ensure that everything my Hawke said was proved wrong.