1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except there is no riot because of the Templars

Nor because of the Circle.

there are attempts to START a riot by Orsino at the start of act 3

LOL!  Did you buy any strange little statues from a dwarf lately?  Hahahaha...

but no riot and the city doesn't dissolve into complete chaos untill Anders bombs the Chantry*atleast that what the game shows us*.

Exactly.  Anders bombing the Chantry is the key issue.  I don't even see how the mages would be people's first suspect if they weren't seeing Anders confess like we did through Hawke.  The hornmonsters are the only ones known to have advanced explosives, and oh yeah, they launched a surprise attack on the city only a few years ago.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The destruction of the Chantry was obviously a magical explosion. I don't see why they would think anyone else could make the Chantry explode like that.

[Urzon]

No it's because a mob equals pure chaos,chaos equals innocent people getting killed,killing the mages hypothectically prevents a riot thus preventing chaos. It has nothing to do with protecting the mob.

If DA:A taught us anything is you don't coddle a mob, even hypothectically.

The destruction of the Chantry was obviously a magical explosion. I don't see why they would think anyone else could make the Chantry explode like that.

I'd like to see how the commoners of Kirkwall, who never seen an explosion in their life, know that it was magically. What did they think? "WOW, Sparkly colors in the sky! The mages must be behind this!!!!!"

Modifié par Urzon, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:42 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The destruction of the Chantry was obviously a magical explosion. I don't see why they would think anyone else could make the Chantry explode like that.

Of course.  The Qunari have mages though, and arguably stronger ones than the Circle.  They don't like that they have to use them, but 300 years ago they learned they have to.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well yes, that's true, but I would imagine the people would think of the local mages as their first suspect (especially in light of the tension that had been brewing up until that point) before moving on to foreign ones that aren't really there anymore.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 septembre 2011 - 03:00 .

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

No it's because a mob equals pure chaos,chaos equals innocent people getting killed,killing the mages hypothectically prevents a riot thus preventing chaos. It has nothing to do with protecting the mob.

If DA:A taught us anything is you don't coddle a mob, even hypothectically.

The destruction of the Chantry was obviously a magical explosion. I don't see why they would think anyone else could make the Chantry explode like that.

I'd like to see how the commoners of Kirkwall, who never seen an explosion in their life, know that it was magically. What did they think? "WOW, Sparkly colors in the sky! The mages must be behind this!!!!!"

Indeed. What DA:A taught us is that threatening to kill a mob works wonders in putting it down without bloodshed. Especially considering the mob will have barely any arms and armor (the mob in DA:A had weapons, but no armor).

Meredith (who was sadly the power in Kirkwall) and her Templars, along with the City Guard, are supposed to keep order. If a mob were to form, she could threaten to kill them all and they would see reason (hopefully, considering they're in Hellmouth Land). The mob does not dictate her actions. She dictates the mob's actions.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 septembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[dragonflight288]

Or at least that's how it's supposed to be.

[Vicious]

Shrug, no matter who you side with it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Side with Meredith and restore order, sure, its part of your job as champion. But she admits she has been wanting to annul the circle for a long time. That and her annoyinng I AM EVILLL voice she rocks In the end is just too much.

Mages not much better. You are trapped fighting Orsino, pretty much every Mage turns to demons and blood magic ANYWAY, and you, the champion, are forced to flee for your life.


Easily the worst parts of DA2.

[dsl08002]

What i was thinking of is that if its going to be a war between the mages and templars then the tevinter imperium wich is ruled by sadistic magisters who´s lusting for power might see the war as a oppurtunity to reclaim their former imperium.

The magisters will probably tempt all mages with power and the ability to get revenge at the templars, then their is a risk that all mages will be at the magisters mercy and power

[Urzon]

dsl08002 wrote...

What i was thinking of is that if its going to be a war between the mages and templars then the tevinter imperium wich is ruled by sadistic magisters who´s lusting for power might see the war as a oppurtunity to reclaim their former imperium.

The magisters will probably tempt all mages with power and the ability to get revenge at the templars, then their is a risk that all mages will be at the magisters mercy and power

Even if they wanted to, Tevinter doesn't really have enough power fight to reclaim their lost lands. They are still fighting a war with the Qunari. They seem to be hopelessly deadlocked against them for the several centuries, if i remember right, and the Qunari haven't been really trying either.

Sure they might try and meddle in the mage/templar war, but it has been said before that the magisters of Tevinter don't like outside competition. They have enough backstabbing bloodthirty magisters in Tevinter, helping outside mages get stronger isn't on their agenda.

Though, I am curious on how Asunder is going to effect the Tevinter/Qunari war. It is said its going to change mage-kind.

[dsl08002]

What i meant was is that the magisters don´t help the mages, they simply influence them to the magisters bidding

[TheJediSaint]

dsl08002 wrote...

What i was thinking of is that if its going to be a war between the mages and templars then the tevinter imperium wich is ruled by sadistic magisters who´s lusting for power might see the war as a oppurtunity to reclaim their former imperium.

The same logic can be applied to the Qunari, seeing Thedas torn apart by war, they may see it as the best opportunity to spread the Qun.  My guess is that they would start by finishing off the Tevinters.

[Foolsfolly]

The same logic can be applied to the Qunari, seeing Thedas torn apart by war, they may see it as the best opportunity to spread the Qun. My guess is that they would start by finishing off the Tevinters.

It's also possible that the Qunari would not intervene seeing this as idiots being killed by the dangerous animals they refused to leash.

...doesn't mean they won't intervene but if DA3 comes out in two years and there's no Qunari invasion that's entirely how I'm going to rationalize it. If they do invade then it's obvious why, the dangerous animals are rising in power and might threaten all. Time to set the world right through the Qun kind of thought process.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
]No it's because a mob equals pure chaos,chaos equals innocent people getting killed,killing the mages hypothectically prevents a riot thus preventing chaos. It has nothing to do with protecting the mob.

The mob are volunteers. They are not being forced to riot or spread anarchy. The are overracting angrily to a serious incident, and instead of using their brains, they decide to let their animal instincts take over, and they are acting purely on emotion. It is the job of civil authorities to disperse, by whatever means necessary, the mob when it forms. Since most members of a mob are average joes who have been swept up in all the crazy, the threat of violence and force, most will get tired really quickly when they have a crossbow pointed in their faces or a guardsmans sword with the firm order to stand down and go home, or else. And since Meredith now is the defacto ruler of Kirkwall and thus, it's prime civil authority, she would be obliged to send templars into the city. If she was even remotely competant, that is.

And furthermore, this mob isn't rioting because they are out of food or dying from some plague, or some other imminent threat. The are rioting in response to an event that happened that had great signifgance to them. They aren't desperate, just pissed off.

But you never feed a mob, especially when it is demanding something as petty and emotionally charged as the extermination of a population of people. Give into them, and they will learn that all they have to do is threaten to riot or behave like children, and the civil authorities will give into any demands, no matter how ridiculous and practical. And when the mob holds power of the civil authorities, you really don't have true order or govornment anymore. And thats always going to lead to higher body counts in a situation like this.

[TEWR]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
]No it's because a mob equals pure chaos,chaos equals innocent people getting killed,killing the mages hypothectically prevents a riot thus preventing chaos. It has nothing to do with protecting the mob.

The mob are volunteers. They are not being forced to riot or spread anarchy. The are overracting angrily to a serious incident, and instead of using their brains, they decide to let their animal instincts take over, and they are acting purely on emotion. It is the job of civil authorities to disperse, by whatever means necessary, the mob when it forms. Since most members of a mob are average joes who have been swept up in all the crazy, the threat of violence and force, most will get tired really quickly when they have a crossbow pointed in their faces or a guardsmans sword with the firm order to stand down and go home, or else. And since Meredith now is the defacto ruler of Kirkwall and thus, it's prime civil authority, she would be obliged to send templars into the city. If she was even remotely competant, that is.

And furthermore, this mob isn't rioting because they are out of food or dying from some plague, or some other imminent threat. The are rioting in response to an event that happened that had great signifgance to them. They aren't desperate, just pissed off.

But you never feed a mob, especially when it is demanding something as petty and emotionally charged as the extermination of a population of people. Give into them, and they will learn that all they have to do is threaten to riot or behave like children, and the civil authorities will give into any demands, no matter how ridiculous and practical. And when the mob holds power of the civil authorities, you really don't have true order or govornment anymore. And thats always going to lead to higher body counts in a situation like this.

Precisely.

I also find it funny how in all our time in Lowtown and the Docks during the incident, we don't see any evidence of there actually being a mob. Meredith says that the people demand blood, which implies that a mob has already formed. But we don't see anything to indicate that there was a mob. Unless Aveline made mention of the mob in one of the endgame chats, in which case I simply forgot.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Precisely.

I also find it funny how in all our time in Lowtown and the Docks during the incident, we don't see any evidence of there actually being a mob. Meredith says that the people demand blood, which implies that a mob has already formed. But we don't see anything to indicate that there was a mob. Unless Aveline made mention of the mob in one of the endgame chats, in which case I simply forgot.

Well, the bomb goes off while you're in the gallows, but I think Aveline does mention something about the guards out there ready to prevent chaos and anarchy, so at least from her end, the civil authorities are already preparing and getting ready for the possibility, and even acting ahead to prevent too much disorder. Whether an actual mob exists or not, I don't remember it being stated specifically by anyone except Meredith. Perhaps she was talking about the mobs of people inside her head telling her to annul the Circle so the Maker will be pleased.

But the bombing happened at night, when alot of people were likely asleep. What seems most likely are a number of half dazed people wandering around, trying to figure out what the hell happened and such. If the guards do their job properly, they can probably keep the worst of the rumors down. Most people probably did not see the bomb go off, as they were likely inside their homes sleeping, or in taverns. The blast and aftershocks there of would have been what woke everyone up, and after running around looking for the source, they would go outside, see a big plume of smoke and dust and alot of rubble where the Chantry once were.

I think if anything, you would have a state of widespread shock, confusion, and worry for a period of time, before word got around what happened.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Come to think of it, since we are discussing a fictional terrorist attack, when we are 3 days from the 10th anniversary of 9/11, several things could apply here as well.

In the hours after the attacks, there was alot of confusion, rumors, shock, and fear, but you did not have widespread violence or rioting. And communications on 9/11 were pretty clogged, but far quicker and more advanced than in Thedas. You had kids at home or at school who were relaying information faster through their IMs and text messaging than the pentagon was to the media. But the general mood after was first one of shock, horror, and worry. It was later, and in the days after, that you had idiots talking about nuking Mecca would solve everyone's problems, deporting all Muslims and Arabs, even if they are American born citizens, ect ect. You even had random attacks against people who were either beaten or killed because they "looked" Middle eastern. But while the civil authorities might have been incompetent in preventing the attacks, they certainly didn't let a bunch of pissed off people go around attacking or terrorizing others. Nor would the civil authorities even consider exterminating all Arabs and Muslims in the US to appease hysterical, angry mobs, should they have broken out and demanded revenge.

Meredith's "logic" in wanting to annul the tower because the mobs will demand blood looks more like "epic stupid" from over here.

[GavrielKay]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Meredith's "logic" in wanting to annul the tower because the mobs will demand blood looks more like "epic stupid" from over here.

So true.

I suppose there were ways to write the story to make it more reasonable to annul the circle, but what we were actually given is just silly.

Between Meredith wanting to annul the circle throughout Act 3 because she was convinced there was something afoot despite having no proof to the final straw of trying to use a blood thirsty mob as her stated excuse - I just wondered why Hawke had to sit around and wait for the annulment to begin rather than challenge Meredith to a duel on the spot.  She was clearly off her rocker.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I also find it funny how in all our time in Lowtown and the Docks during the incident, we don't see any evidence of there actually being a mob.

We also don't see any evidence of the alleged overcrowding that makes people of Kirkwall turn down the incoming refugees.

Game engine apparently doesn't do crowds very well.

[Ryzaki]

Not to mention I'd rather not see the same person 40 times if the Arishok battle crowd is anything similar.

[Nationalcity1]

lol, for some reason twins, triplets seem to pop up in all these games...

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I also find it funny how in all our time in Lowtown and the Docks during the incident, we don't see any evidence of there actually being a mob. Meredith says that the people demand blood, which implies that a mob has already formed. But we don't see anything to indicate that there was a mob. Unless Aveline made mention of the mob in one of the endgame chats, in which case I simply forgot.

I wish we did see a mob.  One of my favorite moments in Witcher 2 was the one where Geralt has to decide what to do with the lynch mob of racists out for dwarven/elven blood.  Passing up the "Use Jedi Mind Trick Axii Sign" option for the "Skewer Douchebags" was about as much fun as you can have clothed.  Annnyway, the only thing we have real evidence of is looters, as they trashed the Hanged Man.  I remember somebody saying that if you side with the templars, Varric gets to keep his bar...  which was wrong on so many levels.

[Shadow Fox]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
]No it's because a mob equals pure chaos,chaos equals innocent people getting killed,killing the mages hypothectically prevents a riot thus preventing chaos. It has nothing to do with protecting the mob.

The mob are volunteers. They are not being forced to riot or spread anarchy. The are overracting angrily to a serious incident, and instead of using their brains, they decide to let their animal instincts take over, and they are acting purely on emotion. It is the job of civil authorities to disperse, by whatever means necessary, the mob when it forms. Since most members of a mob are average joes who have been swept up in all the crazy, the threat of violence and force, most will get tired really quickly when they have a crossbow pointed in their faces or a guardsmans sword with the firm order to stand down and go home, or else. And since Meredith now is the defacto ruler of Kirkwall and thus, it's prime civil authority, she would be obliged to send templars into the city. If she was even remotely competant, that is.

And furthermore, this mob isn't rioting because they are out of food or dying from some plague, or some other imminent threat. The are rioting in response to an event that happened that had great signifgance to them. They aren't desperate, just pissed off.

But you never feed a mob, especially when it is demanding something as petty and emotionally charged as the extermination of a population of people. Give into them, and they will learn that all they have to do is threaten to riot or behave like children, and the civil authorities will give into any demands, no matter how ridiculous and practical. And when the mob holds power of the civil authorities, you really don't have true order or govornment anymore. And thats always going to lead to higher body counts in a situation like this.

Don't get me wrong I don't support appeasing a mob,I'm just trying to decipher the reasoning behind DA2's endgame choice cause between the Templars and the guardsmen I don't see how even if the city fell into chaos that they couldn't rein it in unless both sides are grossly incompetent.

[phaonica]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Don't get me wrong I don't support appeasing a mob, I'm just trying to decipher the reasoning behind DA2's endgame choice cause between the Templars and the guardsmen I don't see how even if the city fell into chaos that they couldn't rein it in unless both sides are grossly incompetent.

Same here. I think it's disappointingly easy to side with the mages at the end of DA2. Not because I'm against mages, but because I wanted the choice to be a challenge, just like any puzzle or combat in the game, but it isn't. The RoA seems senseless, no matter how I try to spin it.

All I can ever think to myself is: Why is it more important to protect innocent non-mages than it is to protect innocent mages? I suppose it has to do with the different hypothetical number of innocent casualties that could come from taking either side. But even if the RoA is done and a great number of non mage casualties are prevented, the number of casualties on the mage side is just going to go up and up and ultimately outnumber the prevented non-mage casualties simply because Meredith (as far as we know at the time) is going to stay in charge of the new Circle and going to continue to tighten her grip all over again until this happens again.

Modifié par phaonica, 09 septembre 2011 - 07:07 .

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I also find it funny how in all our time in Lowtown and the Docks during the incident, we don't see any evidence of there actually being a mob.

We also don't see any evidence of the alleged overcrowding that makes people of Kirkwall turn down the incoming refugees.

Game engine apparently doesn't do crowds very well.

I find that hard to believe when they could've done it in cutscenes much like Origins did, especially considering DAII's engine is an improved version of DAO's engine.

Hell they could've just had it as an optional battle where you can either talk them down or fight them, much like the Coterie instance for Hubert's Act 2 quest.