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[dragonflight288]

Heck, we could have had several scenes of the Champion before the people of Kirkwall, helping sway opinions one way or another, not just as an arbiter of the Orsino/Meredith debate.

[phaonica]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Heck, we could have had several scenes of the Champion before the people of Kirkwall, helping sway opinions one way or another, not just as an arbiter of the Orsino/Meredith debate.

Hawke isn't really known for taking initiative.

edit: in my experience, that is.

Modifié par phaonica, 09 septembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I find that hard to believe when they could've done it in cutscenes much like Origins did, especially considering DAII's engine is an improved version of DAO's engine.

I don't -- when you consider there's plenty things DA2 didn't do that DAO had, simply because they were cutting corners all over the place in order to ship it fast enough.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...

Same here. I think it's disappointingly easy to side with the mages at the end of DA2. Not because I'm against mages, but because I wanted the choice to be a challenge, just like any puzzle or combat in the game, but it isn't. The RoA seems senseless, no matter how I try to spin it.

This is, besides red lyrium crazieness and harvestino, one of my biggest complaints with the game. It wasn't just that mages were portrayed so ridiculously, it was that the templars were portrayed just as irrational and stupid, but perhaps even worse, because they are supposed to be the authorities, so to speak. I did not wish it to be so. I was really hoping that, since I had two DAO canons that generally made somewhat similar descisions on the major points (king of Orzammar, Circle saved, Zathrien ends curse, ashes spared), that in DA2, I could have playthroughs where I could choose either side, and find good reasons why I should do so. I could side with Meredith for the lulz, but generally, when it comes to "canon" games, i really don't like making descisions for the lulz factor.

I just can't get my head around the logic for the annulment. No matter how I look at it, it's based on a madwoman's paranoid dellusions and really epic fail leadership skills. Hell, the main reason Kirkwall is at that crisis point is because she and Elthina were completely incompetant morons that should have been shanked by some errant do gooder before hawke even arrived in Kirkwall, for everyone's sake. I simply can't side with anyone that pathetic. Or if I did, I wouldn't be able to take the descision seriously.

I mean, the last time I had to side with a raving obsessive lunatic was Branka. And that was a tough call, because despite Branka being a completely twisted, cold blood psychopath, she at least had a usefulness that outweighed my urge to gut her. Twisted as she was, she was the only one alive who knew how to use the anvil and make golems. But in other playthroughs, I just as easily killed her. Meredith is a raving psychopath, but unlike Branka, she has no special or necessary ability/quality that i could suck up my distaste for her, for the sake of some more important goal in which she would be necessary. She's freaking useless. She can't even keep her own men from conspiring with blood mages against her.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I find that hard to believe when they could've done it in cutscenes much like Origins did, especially considering DAII's engine is an improved version of DAO's engine.

I don't -- when you consider there's plenty things DA2 didn't do that DAO had, simply because they were cutting corners all over the place in order to ship it fast enough.

so then it has nothing to do with the game engine like you said previously but more to do with time constraints.

That I can accept.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Don't get me wrong I don't support appeasing a mob,I'm just trying to decipher the reasoning behind DA2's endgame choice cause between the Templars and the guardsmen I don't see how even if the city fell into chaos that they couldn't rein it in unless both sides are grossly incompetent.

I understand that part. I'm just saying its still extremely weak reasoning, for me at least, and it's why i can't seriously choose to do it. Not because I've grown fond of the mages in Kirkwall, who spent most of the game making me facepalm. But because its a choice I can't find any serious logic or reasoning that I could support.

Both sides are grossly incompetant. That's why things have degenerated as badly as they have. Orsino and meredith should have been removed long before this crap got out of hand, but Elthina chose to be a lazy cow, sit back, and "leave it in the Maker's hands". Which is why really, if I blame anyone for the whole mess, I blame Elthina even more than i do Meredith or Orsino.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so then it has nothing to do with the game engine like you said previously but more to do with time constraints.

That I can accept.

No, it's more of combination of both   the lack of crowds in regular game can be attributed to limitation of how many characters can be realistically handled at once by the game engine. The lack of cutscene-based equivalent to work around this limitation is more likely to be result of time constraints.

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I'm just saying its still extremely weak reasoning, for me at least, and it's why i can't seriously choose to do it. Not because I've grown fond of the mages in Kirkwall, who spent most of the game making me facepalm. But because its a choice I can't find any serious logic or reasoning that I could support.

Both sides are grossly incompetant. That's why things have degenerated as badly as they have. Orsino and meredith should have been removed long before this crap got out of hand, but Elthina chose to be a lazy cow, sit back, and "leave it in the Maker's hands". Which is why really, if I blame anyone for the whole mess, I blame Elthina even more than i do Meredith or Orsino.

I kind of feel this way too. It consistently felt like this conflict
only escalated to the breaking point because no one with any authority
or power had any sense.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...

I kind of feel this way too. It consistently felt like this conflict
only escalated to the breaking point because no one with any authority
or power had any sense.

That's exactly how I see it. People weren't either doing their jobs, or were not doing their jobs correctly. The Chantry does have a chain of command structure in which everyone from Meredith to the Divine seems to be an idiot. Control and management of the Circles are one of the things the Chantry is supposed to be totally responsible for, to the point where they can even tell the king to FO if he wants mages to fight a Blight. In managing and controlling the Circles, the Chantry is responsible for ensuring their personnel do their freaking jobs properly. In Kirkwall, all this seems to have been thrown out the window.

[dragonflight288]

One thing to remember about Orsino is that the First Enchanter position is not set up by Elthina. It's elected by the senior mages of the circle. Only Orsino became the First Enchanter because he was the only one stepping forward. No one else wanted to bash heads with Meredith.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So?

[The Xand]

I thought the situation seemed quite delicate and you could understand it getting out of hand. Meredith was under the powerful influence of the red lyrium which was fuelling her darker desires and making her insanely paranoid, Orsino was the head of the mages because he was the only one to step up and try to talk sense into Meredith thus further fuelling her hatred of mages, Elthina had her hands tied because were she to act it would near certainly get out of hand and escalate because she couldn't act without seeming to take sides and there being grave consequences. A similar powederkeg was the Allies' policy of appeasement of the Third Reich with nobody wanting to act for fear of the consequences. Obviously swift and brutal force would have been the quick answer, but no-one wants that and certainly not after what happened in WW1, similar to the citizens of Kirkwall having suffered so much during the expulsion of the Qunari. Nobody wanted to see the city in ruins and fighting in the streets again.

Modifié par The Xand, 10 septembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[DPSSOC]

The Xand wrote...
Elthina had her hands tied because were she to act it would near certainly get out of hand and escalate because she couldn't act without seeming to take sides and there being grave consequences.

That's the thing though she could.  Meredith was breaking Chantry Law by Tranquilling  Harrowed Mages (THM: The Audience is Dead Inside) and grossly overstepping her authority by becoming de-facto Viscount.  Calling Meredith down for these things would not have been seen as siding with the Mages, but demanding Meredith adhere to the code she agreed to follow when she became a Templar, and most likely swore to uphold as she moved up the ranks.

Also note she's not concerned about appearing to take sides when she calls Orsino down for trying to get the people to oppose Meredith's illegal activities.  With Elthina's position and the power and responsibility that gives her, not taking action is choosing to side with Meredith.  By not calling Meredith down for breaking Chantry law she tacitly condones what she's doing and publicly scolding the First Enchanter for opposing her makes it explicit.  She can say all she wants that she's not taking sides but she very much is.

[The Xand]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Xand wrote...
Elthina had her hands tied because were she to act it would near certainly get out of hand and escalate because she couldn't act without seeming to take sides and there being grave consequences.

That's the thing though she could.  Meredith was breaking Chantry Law by Tranquilling  Harrowed Mages (THM: The Audience is Dead Inside) and grossly overstepping her authority by becoming de-facto Viscount.  Calling Meredith down for these things would not have been seen as siding with the Mages, but demanding Meredith adhere to the code she agreed to follow when she became a Templar, and most likely swore to uphold as she moved up the ranks.

Also note she's not concerned about appearing to take sides when she calls Orsino down for trying to get the people to oppose Meredith's illegal activities.  With Elthina's position and the power and responsibility that gives her, not taking action is choosing to side with Meredith.  By not calling Meredith down for breaking Chantry law she tacitly condones what she's doing and publicly scolding the First Enchanter for opposing her makes it explicit.  She can say all she wants that she's not taking sides but she very much is.

Given that she's the Grand Cleric she of course has to side with the Templars because they are the only ones to keep the mages in check, and were the mages to get too out of hand she knew that Meredith would be quick to invoke the Right of Annulment and butcher them. Better that she tried to keep the peace by not riling populace and inciting mages to rebel, that's certainly what her faith calls on her to do at any rate with the Chantry having little patience or tolerance for uppity mages. And as far as Elthina was aware Meredith was fully within her rights to tranquil and/or discipline mages who had apparently been practicing blood magic and without a viscount and an heir Meredith did seem the most logical choice to rule in the stead of the Viscount (the Champion notwithstanding).

Modifié par The Xand, 10 septembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[DPSSOC]

The Xand wrote...
Given that she's the Grand Cleric she of course has to side with the Templars because they are the only ones to keep the mages in check, and were the mages to get too out of hand she knew that Meredith would be quick to invoke the Right of Annulment and butcher them.

 
Except that she can't without the go ahead from Elthina or the Divine.  Also like I said reigning Meredith is not supporting the mages nor would it necessarily lead to mages getting more out of hand.  That's like saying stopping police brutality will just lead to more criminals.

The Xand wrote...
Better that she tried to keep the peace by not riling populace and inciting mages to rebel, that's certainly what her faith calls on her to do at any rate with the Chantry having little patience or tolerance for uppity mages.

 
Here's the thing though, peace requires an equitable relationship between all parties.  Allowing Meredith to continue abusing her authority isn't keeping the peace.  Keeping the peace would have involved reigning both Meredith and Orsino (Meredith stop breaking the law, Orsino stop riling up the populace), but instead she only smacks down Orsino.

The Xand wrote...
And as far as Elthina was aware Meredith was fully within her rights to tranquil and/or discipline mages who had apparently been practicing blood magic and without a viscount and an heir Meredith did seem the most logical choice to rule in the stead of the Viscount (the Champion notwithstanding).

Meredith was Tranquiling Harrowed Mages (THM: The Audience is Dead Inside) that's illegal.  If she found practicing blood mages her options are Aeonar (or Free March equivalent) or death.  Meredith was openly and visciously breaking the law in order to beat down the mages.  As for the most logical choice for an interim Viscount I would think Seneschal Bran would be the most logical choice (actually has experience running the city, existing relationship with the Guard Captain) and even then only for a few months (year tops) until the nobility could elect/appoint a new Viscount.  Meredith seized the position and refused to allow the nobility to choose a new Viscount.  However reasonable it may have seemed for Meredith to be in charge at first Elthina should have stepped in when she refused to let the system of government run it's course.

[Urzon]

  If she found practicing blood mages her options are Aeonar (or Free March equivalent) or death.

Whatever happened to Aeonar? You would think we would have heard more about the templar ran super mage prison in a game full of crazy blood mages, but i don't remember hearing anything about it.

[The Xand]

DPSSOC wrote...

Except that she can't without the go ahead from Elthina or the Divine.  Also like I said reigning Meredith is not supporting the mages nor would it necessarily lead to mages getting more out of hand.  That's like saying stopping police brutality will just lead to more criminals.

It's nothing like that at all. By not siding with mages and by not giving the go ahead for the Right of Annulment she was reigning Meredith in. Also to consider is that had she sided with the mages that would have raised the ire of the Templars and the mages would have felt the need to push for greater freedoms thereby exacerbating the existing problems.

DPSSOC wrote...
 
Here's the thing though, peace requires an equitable relationship between all parties.  Allowing Meredith to continue abusing her authority isn't keeping the peace.  Keeping the peace would have involved reigning both Meredith and Orsino (Meredith stop breaking the law, Orsino stop riling up the populace), but instead she only smacks down Orsino.

That isn't usually the case, especially according to the Chantry. Granting mages greater freedom just to appease them goes against the grain for them. "Magic exists to serve man, and not rule over him" which is why the Templars exist and why the mages are kept on a short leash. Meredith wasn't technically breaking any laws, she was just being overly zealous in her duties, whereas Orsino seemed to be the more dangerous seemingly pressing a revolutionary agenda. As the highest ranking agent of the Chantry Elthina couldn't very well openly rail against Meredith for her pursuit of blood mages, however harsh her methods.

DPSSOC wrote...

Meredith was Tranquiling Harrowed Mages (THM: The Audience is Dead Inside) that's illegal.  If she found practicing blood mages her options are Aeonar (or Free March equivalent) or death.  Meredith was openly and visciously breaking the law in order to beat down the mages.  As for the most logical choice for an interim Viscount I would think Seneschal Bran would be the most logical choice (actually has experience running the city, existing relationship with the Guard Captain) and even then only for a few months (year tops) until the nobility could elect/appoint a new Viscount.  Meredith seized the position and refused to allow the nobility to choose a new Viscount.  However reasonable it may have seemed for Meredith to be in charge at first Elthina should have stepped in when she refused to let the system of government run it's course.

That quest/codex entry or w/e isn't coming up in google or in the DA wiki, however you did get the option to hunt down three escaped mages in Best Served Cold and two turned out to be blood mages and possessed and a third had been bragging about being a blood mage to make himself sound better to the ladies. So Meredith might have been being harsh but it's better to tranquilise a mage than to have them run amok as abominations. She might admittedly have been a good deal more diplomatic about it but she was well within her rights as a Templar to hunt down and deal with suspected blood mages. Her usurpation of political power was somewhat iffy, but given the troubled nature of the times it's understandable that as the head of the most powerful political entity in Kirkwall it was her right to take the helm, rather than cede it to bickering powerless nobles.

[Urzon]

It's nothing like that at all. By not siding with mages and by not giving the go ahead for the Right of Annulment she was reigning Meredith in. Also to consider is that had she sided with the mages that would have raised the ire of the Templars and the mages would have felt the need to push for greater freedoms thereby exacerbating the existing problems.

She never did reign in Meredith. She was just deining a right Meredith didn't have. She didn't listen to the mages concerns, and she overlooked what the templars were doing to the mages. They only thing she stopped was the RoA from being acted upon, and Meredith already was trying to over her head to get the right to do it from the Divine herself.

That isn't usually the case, especially according to the Chantry. Granting mages greater freedom just to appease them goes against the grain for them. "Magic exists to serve man, and not rule over him" which is why the Templars exist and why the mages are kept on a short leash. Meredith wasn't technically breaking any laws, she was just being overly zealous in her duties, whereas Orsino seemed to be the more dangerous seemingly pressing a revolutionary agenda. As the highest ranking agent of the Chantry Elthina couldn't very well openly rail against Meredith for her pursuit of blood mages, however harsh her methods.

It wouldn't be giving mages greater freedoms by giving them back the freedoms that Meredith took away in the first place. And, I didn't know that it was an revolutionary agenda to try to get the nobles the rights to elect a viscount again. Since, Meredith unlawfully put herself into the leadership postion after his death, and she still maintained that position many years after his death.

That quest/codex entry or w/e isn't coming up in google or in the DA wiki, however you did get the option to hunt down three escaped mages in Best Served Cold and two turned out to be blood mages and possessed and a third had been bragging about being a blood mage to make himself sound better to the ladies. So Meredith might have been being harsh but it's better to tranquilise a mage than to have them run amok as abominations. She might admittedly have been a good deal more diplomatic about it but she was well within her rights as a Templar to hunt down and deal with suspected blood mages. Her usurpation of political power was somewhat iffy, but given the troubled nature of the times it's understandable that as the head of the most powerful political entity in Kirkwall it was her right to take the helm, rather than cede it to bickering powerless nobles.

It is still against the law. Even more so, it is against the Chantry law, which the templars a branch of. Templars do have the rights to hunt down blood mages, but if they are mages that passed their harrowing in the Circle; they are not allowed to tranquilize them. The templar groups have methods to deal with blood mages. Meredith ignored all of those and proceeded to tranquilize all of those she saw as a threat.

Powerless nobles? You mean the people that had the right to elect the new ruler of the city? Those people? Meredith might have had to right to declare marital law during the Qunari invasion, but that has long since passed by Act 3. There were no more Qunari around, but she blocked all attempts to getting a new viscount, and she imposed herself has the ruler of Kirkwall.

Would you think its would be kinda "iffy" if the head of the miitary placed himself as leader of a country after the president/PM got killed, and he didn't give up the spot after 3-4 years? That and, he is blocking any and all attempts to reelect a leader by force and "silencing".

[phaonica]

The Xand wrote...

It's nothing like that at all. By not siding with mages and by not giving the go ahead for the Right of Annulment she was reigning Meredith in. Also to consider is that had she sided with the mages that would have raised the ire of the Templars and the mages would have felt the need to push for greater freedoms thereby exacerbating the existing problems.

There was a time when I might have believed this. But Elthina does exactly jack all about Petrice when you tell Elthina what Petrice was doing, too.  Elthina is the only one with any authority and any clout with Meredith, and she doesn't do anything.

And, to me, removing Meredith does not mean siding with the mages. I don't think removing Meredith would have provoked the Templars because they seemed to have questions of their own about Meredith's methods.

Modifié par phaonica, 10 septembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[The Xand]

Urzon wrote...

She never did reign in Meredith. She was just deining a right Meredith didn't have. She didn't listen to the mages concerns, and she overlooked what the templars were doing to the mages. They only thing she stopped was the RoA from being acted upon, and Meredith already was trying to over her head to get the right to do it from the Divine herself.

The Chantry is quite clear on how to deal with revolutionary mages that seem to be getting out of hand, and the Right of Annulment is the Chantry's solution so Meredith was quite right in seeking the right to perform it. Meredith might have been wrong to push the mages, but you couldn't really expect the Grand Cleric to care overly much given that the Chantry considers mages to be about as desirable as a gay black man would have been to 1950's America. Not to mention that she was sitting on a powderkeg of biblical proportions. Were Elthina to have become vocal then there's every chance that the situation would have exploded since neither side would have been happy, the patience of the mages would have come exploding to the fore in revolution if she'd tried to smack them down, and the templars might very well have kept pushing and pushing the mages if she'd sided with them or even deposed her.

Urzon wrote...It wouldn't be giving mages greater freedoms by giving them back the freedoms that Meredith took away in the first place. And, I didn't know that it was an revolutionary agenda to try to get the nobles the rights to elect a viscount again. Since, Meredith unlawfully put herself into the leadership postion after his death, and she still maintained that position many years after his death.

Of course she did, hers was the most powerful faction in the city and might makes right. In Kirkwall the Templars had set a precedent for over-exerting their already abused authority.

Urzon wrote...It is still against the law. Even more so, it is against the Chantry law, which the templars a branch of. Templars do have the rights to hunt down blood mages, but if they are mages that passed their harrowing in the Circle; they are not allowed to tranquilize them. The templar groups have methods to deal with blood mages. Meredith ignored all of those and proceeded to tranquilize all of those she saw as a threat.

Yes, the Templars do have methods to deal with blood mages, but under Chantry law any mage deemed a likely threat and potential abomination can be tranquilised, regardless if they passed their Harrowing or not. Meredith might have been going a little too far but she was merely exercising the existing Chantry laws, however unfair they might have been.

Urzon wrote...Powerless nobles? You mean the people that had the right to elect the new ruler of the city? Those people? Meredith might have had to right to declare marital law during the Qunari invasion, but that has long since passed by Act 3. There were no more Qunari around, but she blocked all attempts to getting a new viscount, and she imposed herself has the ruler of Kirkwall.

Would you think its would be kinda "iffy" if the head of the miitary placed himself as leader of a country after the president/PM got killed, and he didn't give up the spot after 3-4 years? That and, he is blocking any and all attempts to reelect a leader by force and "silencing".

You talk of rights and freedoms, and while yes someone could be elected to the position of Viscount the hereditary line has to die out first so if anything it was good that the Viscount and his son died since it at least freed the people from a hereditary monarchy. Meredith was the next most powerful person in the city so she had as much right as anyone, if not more so, to take the reigns especially given that the Templars had deposed undesirable leaders before.


In any case Meredith and Elthina are rightfully dead now and the mages are free so it's not an issue any more thanks to Anders' justified bombing of the Chantry.

Modifié par The Xand, 10 septembre 2011 - 09:07 .

[Urzon]

The Chantry is quite clear on how to deal with revolutionary mages that seem to be getting out of hand, and the Right of Annulment is the Chantry's solution so Meredith was quite right in seeking the right to perform it. Meredith might have been wrong to push the mages, but you couldn't really expect the Grand Cleric to care overly much given that the Chantry considers mages to be about as desirable as a gay black man would have been to 1950's America. Not to mention that she was sitting on a powderkeg of biblical proportions. Were Elthina to have become vocal then there's every chance that the situation would have exploded since neither side would have been happy, the patience of the mages would have come exploding to the fore in revolution if she'd tried to smack them down, and the templars might very well have kept pushing and pushing the mages if she'd sided with them or even deposed her.

The RoA isn't used to put down wily mages. The RoA can only be used if the Circle is irredeemable. Switch mostly involves the Circle getting taken over by demons and abomination, and the templar and mages loose control (ie the Ferelden Circle). The only reason the Kirkwall Circle fell to demons and blood mages was because Meredith invoked the RoA, leaving them no choice but to defend themselves against certain death otherwise.

Of course she did, hers was the most powerful faction in the city and might makes right. In Kirkwall the Templars had set a precedent for over-exerting their already abused authority.

Might never makes right. Anyone that thinks so are sad sick fools.

Yes, the Templars do have methods to deal with blood mages, but under Chantry law any mage deemed a likely threat and potential abomination can be tranquilised, regardless if they passed their Harrowing or not. Meredith might have been going a little too far but she was merely exercising the existing Chantry laws, however unfair they might have been.

I'd love for you to bring me a quote where it says the Chantry oks the the right to tranquilize mages that passed the Harrowing. All i can find is the templars forcing and overstepping their bounds and making "exceptions".

"Officially, once a mage has passed the Harrowing and graduated from their apprenticeship, Chantry law forbids them from being made tranquil. That being said, in places like Kirkwall where the authority of the Templar Order is exceptionally powerful, exceptions have been made."

aka: No one can say no to Meredith.

You talk of rights and freedoms, and while yes someone could be elected to the position of Viscount the hereditary line has to die out first so if anything it was good that the Viscount and his son died since it at least freed the people from a hereditary monarchy. Meredith was the next most powerful person in the city so she had as much right as anyone, if not more so, to take the reigns especially given that the Templars had deposed undesirable leaders before.


In any case Meredith and Elthina are rightfully dead now and the mages are free so it's not an issue any more thanks to Anders' justified bombing of the Chantry.

Yes they went from a elected hereditary monarchy (keyword being elected) to a dictatorship under Meredith. Which im sure the nobles enjoyed having their rights of choosing their next leader taken away from them *sarcasm*. And no, Meredith didn't have any right to "take the reigns" of leadership. Sure she was a powerful templar commander, but she overstepped her bound by appointing herself as defacto-leader of Kirkwall when there are already methods to appoint another viscount.

The irony of course in this situation is Meredith ultimatly turned into the same (if not greater) tyrant that Perrin Threnhold was.

Modifié par Urzon, 10 septembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The RoA is not only used in cases of demon infestation. It is also used when the mages are being rebellious.

[Sons of Horus]

Urzon wrote...

  If she found practicing blood mages her options are Aeonar (or Free March equivalent) or death.

Whatever happened to Aeonar? You would think we would have heard more about the templar ran super mage prison in a game full of crazy blood mages, but i don't remember hearing anything about it.

Most likey it was forgotten about in their seach to make the Templar/mage war more ridiculous.

[LobselVith8]

The Xand wrote...

Yes, the Templars do have methods to deal with blood mages, but under Chantry law any mage deemed a likely threat and potential abomination can be tranquilized, regardless if they passed the Harrowing or not.

I realize that Anders and other Circle mages have said the Harrowing is illegal if the mages passed the Harrowing, but Gaider said it's possible for a Harrowed mage to be made tranquil, but only under extraordinary circumstances. Making a plethora of Harrowed Circle mages tranquil stretches believability that every single case is an extraordinary case, especially when we know Ser Alrik is making mages tranquil for things that don't warrant the Rite of Tranquility - Karl writing letters to Anders, a female mage falling in love with another mage and she was made tranquil so only Alrik could "command [her] now," and a child mage who left the Gallows to let her mother know she was still alive (who he implied he would rape, which Hawke calls him out on during "Dissent.")

It's not simply abuses with the Rite of Tranquility. Alain is raped by templars, which is why he joins Ser Thrask's efforts to overthrow Meredith's dictatorship. We also have Meredith's "crony" (according to Ser Thrask) Ser Kerras tell his men to "leave the pretty one" for him when confronting a female Hawke in Act One. Meredith's "death squad" nearly murders a woman because she fed her starving and tortured mage cousin. Meredith's templars torture a da'len (child) hunter of the Dalish in an effort to get Feynriel. I see plenty of boundaries being violated by Meredith and the templars operating under her auspices.

The Xand wrote...

Meredith might have been going a little too far but she was merely exercising the existing Chantry laws, however unfair they might have been.

Making people tranquil for minor offenses isn't legal, according to Chantry law. It takes extraordinary circumstances to warrant the Rite of Tranquility. Then again, becoming a dictator over a city-state isn't legal, either.

[dragonflight288]

The RoA is not only used in cases of demon infestation. It is also used when the mages are being rebellious.

I didn't see a rebellious circle until AFTER the Right was called. I saw Orsino being uncooperative because Meredith was demanding things and leaping to conclusions with absolutely no evidence. She even accuses Hawke of being a victim of blood magic manipulation if you side with her and tell her that Thrask didn't involve Orsino...which he didn't.

And it was a templar leading a rebellion, not against the Chantry, not against the City, but against Meredith, who, as a templar shouldn't even have political power. That doesn't call for a Right of Annulment.