1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Follow Me on Twitter]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

Get mages involved in law enforcement. Give them an active stake in protecting each other, rather than relying on Templars like children. The Templars have too much power, but the mages need to start taking some responsibility. That means prosecuting blood magic; that means enforcing the political separation between the state and the Circle. Mages and Templars don't have to be enemies - they'll likely never be friends, but that doesn't mean there aren't common interests they can't collaborate on.

I actually do agree with alot of this, religion should be taken completely out of the circle. It's the mages actually struggling with their powers it should be their responsibility to control it and not the chantrys.

[TEWR]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

The Templars should fall under the authority of the monarchs of the state and only be used to hunt abominations and maleficar that abuse blood magic.

The Circle Tower should be a boarding school for the mages, much like it kinda is now. A mage child would be allowed to say goodbye to his parents before the Templars escorted him to the Circle (in some cases, the children are just ripped away from the parents).

Upon arriving, a phylactery would be created using the mages' blood, much like the current system operates. The phylactery would then be sent to a cache. The mage child would learn about demons and basic combat spells, and how to resist the demons. He/she would learn that the only thing you can believe in the Fade is yourself, and that everything else is a lie or a trick. He/she would also be taught how to handle grief, since as we've seen with Quentin that mages need to know how to handle grief and death without it unhinging them or unhinging them even further than they already are.

After the mage passes his Harrowing, he would be allowed to leave if he wanted, stay at the Circle if he wanted, become doctors, or join the military. If he left, he would be required to go a village or city where Templars are stationed and to regularly check in with them, so as to make sure he isn't an Abomination. This could be done at the local Chantry during the sermons.

If he stayed at the Circle, he would be appointed for a job there. They would either be teachers, or merchants, or any other role that helps the Circle. Joining the military is self-explanatory. They would help defend the country from invasions or Darkspawn.

The mages would be allowed to have families, and if their children were revealed to also be mages they would be sent to the Circles to repeat the process their parents went through. If the parent mage was willing, he/she (or both if they're both mages) could volunteer to teach the mage himself if the child didn't want to go to the Circle and leave his family.

I would also allow mages to study anatomy, as Thedas is still using leeches to cure everything. I would allow blood magic to be used, but only by those mages who prove themselves to be good and responsible, and they would be restricted to using only their own blood (or if possible, animal blood). Blood magic does have beneficial uses, and can be used medicinally.

that's all that comes to mind right now, so I may be forgetting a few things. some of this is the same as what the current system does, but it allows mages to have more rights.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Y'know, I'll concede that the Circle system as it stands no longer works, or is at least in need of serious repair. But to dismiss the templars as an inherently evil organization is over-simplifying a complicated issue.

The concept of police is not inherently evil.
The Gestapo as an organization was.

Likewise, the concept of an organization that watches out for mages isn't inherently evil. The Templar Order is.

So what would you do if you ran an order like the templar so that they do not become a danger to society?

I'm curious on how the mage supporters would handle things if they were in the templars boots.

The Templars should fall under the authority of the monarchs of the state and only be used to hunt abominations and maleficar that abuse blood magic.

The Circle Tower should be a boarding school for the mages, much like it kinda is now. A mage child would be allowed to say goodbye to his parents before the Templars escorted him to the Circle (in some cases, the children are just ripped away from the parents).

Upon arriving, a phylactery would be created using the mages' blood, much like the current system operates. The phylactery would then be sent to a cache. The mage child would learn about demons and basic combat spells, and how to resist the demons. He/she would learn that the only thing you can believe in the Fade is yourself, and that everything else is a lie or a trick. He/she would also be taught how to handle grief, since as we've seen with Quentin that mages need to know how to handle grief and death without it unhinging them or unhinging them even further than they already are.

After the mage passes his Harrowing, he would be allowed to leave if he wanted, stay at the Circle if he wanted, become doctors, or join the military. If he left, he would be required to go a village or city where Templars are stationed and to regularly check in with them, so as to make sure he isn't an Abomination. This could be done at the local Chantry during the sermons.

If he stayed at the Circle, he would be appointed for a job there. They would either be teachers, or merchants, or any other role that helps the Circle. Joining the military is self-explanatory. They would help defend the country from invasions or Darkspawn.

The mages would be allowed to have families, and if their children were revealed to also be mages they would be sent to the Circles to repeat the process their parents went through. If the parent mage was willing, he/she (or both if they're both mages) could volunteer to teach the mage himself if the child didn't want to go to the Circle and leave his family.

I would also allow mages to study anatomy, as Thedas is still using leeches to cure everything. I would allow blood magic to be used, but only by those mages who prove themselves to be good and responsible, and they would be restricted to using only their own blood (or if possible, animal blood). Blood magic does have beneficial uses, and can be used medicinally.

that's all that comes to mind right now, so I may be forgetting a few things. some of this is the same as what the current system does, but it allows mages to have more rights.

I agree on most points, with the exception of blood magic. It's a politically problematic discipline. It's not a viable thing for mages seeking emancipation or greater freedoms to be championing, medicinal uses or not. Public opinion might be swayed in favor of mages, but never blood magic.

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I agree on most points, with the exception of blood magic. It's a politically problematic discipline. It's not a viable thing for mages seeking emancipation or greater freedoms to be championing, medicinal uses or not. Public opinion might be swayed in favor of mages, but never blood magic.

I understand it's a dangerous path because the mage might use other peoples' blood to power the spells, but it does have medicinal uses. Which is why I'd only allow the mages who have proven themselves to be good mages to use it. We've only seen a few mages like this, and they are exceptions.

I'd also hand the Litany of Adralla out to the public after making copies of it.

I tend to think that the only reason a blood mage gets possessed is due to arrogance and letting his/her guard down.

edit: It should be mentioned that the Mages' Collective has been improving the perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 août 2011 - 12:24 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I agree on most points, with the exception of blood magic. It's a politically problematic discipline. It's not a viable thing for mages seeking emancipation or greater freedoms to be championing, medicinal uses or not. Public opinion might be swayed in favor of mages, but never blood magic.

I understand it's a dangerous path because the mage might use other peoples' blood to power the spells, but it does have medicinal uses. Which is why I'd only allow the mages who have proven themselves to be good mages to use it. We've only seen a few mages like this, and they are exceptions.

I'd also hand the Litany of Adralla out to the public after making copies.

I tend to think that the only reason a blood mage gets possessed is due to arrogance and letting his/her guard down.

The important thing is baby steps. Decriminalizing blood magic is like jumping off a cliff.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 30 août 2011 - 12:25 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I agree on most points, with the exception of blood magic. It's a politically problematic discipline. It's not a viable thing for mages seeking emancipation or greater freedoms to be championing, medicinal uses or not. Public opinion might be swayed in favor of mages, but never blood magic.

I understand it's a dangerous path because the mage might use other peoples' blood to power the spells, but it does have medicinal uses. Which is why I'd only allow the mages who have proven themselves to be good mages to use it. We've only seen a few mages like this, and they are exceptions.

I'd also hand the Litany of Adralla out to the public after making copies.

I tend to think that the only reason a blood mage gets possessed is due to arrogance and letting his/her guard down.

The important thing is baby steps. Decriminalizing blood magic is like jumping off a cliff.

I agree. I wouldn't just say "Go be blood mages!" immediately. I'd start to slowly change the perception of blood magic. I'd teach the public that while prone to abuse, blood magic isn't inherently evil, and I would slowly allow the mages to use it. However, I would also personally look into other ways to combat the evils of blood magic as a precautionary measure.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I agree on most points, with the exception of blood magic. It's a politically problematic discipline. It's not a viable thing for mages seeking emancipation or greater freedoms to be championing, medicinal uses or not. Public opinion might be swayed in favor of mages, but never blood magic.

I understand it's a dangerous path because the mage might use other peoples' blood to power the spells, but it does have medicinal uses. Which is why I'd only allow the mages who have proven themselves to be good mages to use it. We've only seen a few mages like this, and they are exceptions.

I'd also hand the Litany of Adralla out to the public after making copies.

I tend to think that the only reason a blood mage gets possessed is due to arrogance and letting his/her guard down.

The important thing is baby steps. Decriminalizing blood magic is like jumping off a cliff.

I agree. I wouldn't just say "Go be blood mages!" immediately. I'd start to slowly change the perception of blood magic. I'd teach the public that while prone to abuse, blood magic isn't inherently evil, and I would slowly allow the mages to use it. However, I would also personally look into other ways to combat the evils of blood magic as a precautionary measure.

It probably wouldn't work that way and mages would likely have to be rather authoritarian to their own - at least initially - regarding the policing of their magic to gain the necessary political capital to affect any kind of change. The people and the authorities need to be convinced that the mages are committed to the law. And honestly, having mages be free to live less oppressive lives is probably better than giving them more latitude in research forbidden magic. It depends upon priorities.

[Rifneno]

Meh. About 4 posts to reply to basically saying the same thing. So if you're any of the group that doesn't understand the difference between "he owns a gun" and "he shot 5 people," then this one's for you too.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Being capable of manipulating minds, summon demons, raise the dead, devastate villages, incinerate people and more... is comparable to wiggling ears? I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the foolishness of your statement, you're dismissing everything to try and justify your point.

Though I shouldn't be surprised anymore.

Capability to commit a crime is a completely separate matter from guilt of a crime. This is basically the concept of the word "innocence," and it a concept completely and utterly lost on you. No, I'm not surprised.

In case anyone intelligent on the pro-templar side is going to try to pick up the slack that Davey here tripped on, a preemptive clarification/counterpoint: The likelihood of someone with a certain set of beliefs to be predisposed to similar behavior (including crime) is not just scientifically proven but pretty much a forgone conclusion. The best example of this is that people who are cruel to animals because "they're just animals" are much more likely to end up committing violent crimes towards humans as well. On the other side of the coin, a link between basic genetic traits and violent crime is rarely if ever proven. Not that it's even attempted much since it's often and accurately labeled "racism."

[thats1evildude]

Rifneno wrote...

 The likelihood of someone with a certain set of beliefs to be predisposed to similar behavior (including crime) is not just scientifically proven but pretty much a forgone conclusion. The best example of this is that people who are cruel to animals because "they're just animals" are much more likely to end up committing violent crimes towards humans as well. On the other side of the coin, a link between basic genetic traits and violent crime is rarely if ever proven. Not that it's even attempted much since it's often and accurately labeled "racism."

Mages do not have to be willing hosts for demonic possession to become abominations. There are many mages who are transformed involuntarily; it requires only a single slip, a moment of weakness, and then they are lost forever.

It isn't simply a matter of mages having a genetic pre-disposition to commit violent crimes, as you have chosen to frame it. It's about outside forces (demons) taking every opportunity they can to act through mages to wreak havoc in the mortal world, with or without the voluntary consent of said mages.

The fault lies not with the templars or the mages, but with the system itself.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 01:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

Rifneno wrote...

Capability to commit a crime is a completely separate matter from guilt of a crime. This is basically the concept of the word "innocence," and it a concept completely and utterly lost on you. No, I'm not surprised.

*snip*

Boy, I haven't seen this much selective reading in quite a while. Setting aside the "innocence" argument which you just love, your previous post had nothing to do with innocence. You compared mages with people who wiggle their ears and Templar with drug cartel guards.

This comparison is unfairly biased and removes everything from the argument to serve your own needs. If you wish to act smug, feel free to do so when your argument hasn't fallen apart before crossing the starting line.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 août 2011 - 01:35 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

thats1evildude wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

 The likelihood of someone with a certain set of beliefs to be predisposed to similar behavior (including crime) is not just scientifically proven but pretty much a forgone conclusion. The best example of this is that people who are cruel to animals because "they're just animals" are much more likely to end up committing violent crimes towards humans as well. On the other side of the coin, a link between basic genetic traits and violent crime is rarely if ever proven. Not that it's even attempted much since it's often and accurately labeled "racism."

Mages do not have to be willing hosts for demonic possession to become abominations. There are many mages who are transformed involuntarily; it requires only a single slip, a moment of weakness, and then they are lost forever.

It isn't simply a matter of mages having a genetic pre-disposition to commit  violent crimes. It's about outside forces (demons) taking every opportunity they can to act through mages to wreak havoc in the mortal world, with or without the voluntary consent of said mages.

The fault lies not with the templars or the mages, but with the system itself.

To be honest, considering how much of a black box demon magic is, one has to question whether it is because demons have tremendous power in the face of mage mayflies, or because mages are hampered by a general lack of knowledge of what demons are, and how to battle them. The Harrowing isn't even open knowledge to apprentices. Simply classifying them into a hierarchy that is more often than not subverted isn't quite enough.

Moreover, it's never suggested or shown that properly trained mages are forcibly overtaken by mages. The fear is mostly for mages outside the Circle system, where a structured cirriculum generally does not exist.

That being said, demon pacts would be a lot rarer if the Templars weren't abusing their unchecked power at every juncture. If it is difficult to prevent demon attacks, surely it would benefit all parties if the templars' actions did not drive mages to seek demonic power if only out of desperation. That's one thing they can prevent.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Capability to commit a crime is a completely separate matter from guilt of a crime. This is basically the concept of the word "innocence," and it a concept completely and utterly lost on you. No, I'm not surprised.

*snip*

Boy, I haven't seen this much selective reading in quite a while. Setting aside the "innocence" argument which you just love, your previous post had nothing to do with innocence. You compared mages with people who wiggle their ears and Templar with drug cartel guards.

This comparison is unfairly biased and removes everything from the argument to serve your own needs. If you wish to act smug, feel free to do so when your argument hasn't fallen apart before crossing the starting line.

Well, the mage/ear-wiggling comparison wasn't tremendous, but the other one wasn't horrible. Regardless, none of us are suggesting that mages have no one watching over them, just that genocidal rapist religious zealots don't do the watching.

[Rifneno]

thats1evildude wrote...

Mages do not have to be willing hosts for demonic possession to become abominations. There are many mages who are transformed involuntarily; it requires only a single slip, a moment of weakness, and then they are lost forever.

Chantry propaganda. They act like everytime a mage has a craving for a cinnamon bun there's a 50/50 chance they'll turn into a hunger abomination. It simply doesn't work that way. I'm not sure how it does work, but I know it doesn't work like that because no mage would ever make it past Connor's age. I'll certainly agree that mages in Kirkwall are far more dangerous because the veil is hemorrhaging insanity there. But that doesn't mean mages in general need to be persecuted, it means mages should stay the hell out of that (literally) damned area... and that the last thing anyone should do is imprison them there.

If that was all it took, why does the Harrowing even exist? Why force them to confront a demon in a controlled setting if having to fend off demonic influences was a common issue for a mage?

... Bah. Now I have a craving for a cinnamon bun. Good thing I'm not a mage I guess.

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the mage/ear-wiggling comparison wasn't tremendous

I was trying to tiptoe around anything involving racial or ethnic traits.

[thats1evildude]

Rifneno wrote...

Chantry propaganda. They act like everytime a mage has a craving for a cinnamon bun there's a 50/50 chance they'll turn into a hunger abomination. It simply doesn't work that way.

But it does! It does work that way! Demons can forcibly possess mages. We've seen it with Uldred in Origins and with Thrask's daughter Olivia in DA2. The codex for Orsino's staff even suggests that his predecessor was turned into an abomination against her will.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 02:08 .

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Chantry propaganda. They act like everytime a mage has a craving for a cinnamon bun there's a 50/50 chance they'll turn into a hunger abomination. It simply doesn't work that way.

But it does! It does work that way! Demons can forcibly possess mages. We've seen it with Uldred in Origins and with Thrask's daughter Olivia in DA2. The codex for Orsino's staff even suggests that his predecessor was turned into an abomination against her will.

It can't work that way.  If it did, then every third mage would become a world destroying abomination before he reached of age.  There wouldn't BE any civiliziations because abominations would have wiped all pro-civilized tribes of men and elves long ago.  Riferno is right.  The idea that a mage can randomly go "poof" abomination seems to be pure Chantry propaganda, and the devs are trying to feed you a line.

The Writers and Devs are dishonestly (IMHO) giving you a series of special cases without telling you how the relationship between demons and mages usually works, thus illiciting a specific and wrong conclusion.  I know that w/r/t DA2, DA (for one) as out and out admitted this because people in DAO were picking the mage side "by default".

Let's look at them.  Uldred is practing highly dangerous demonology under stress and other than ideal condiitons.  We know that if one seeks out mental combat with a demon in the fade, and loses, you can be possessed.  In short, Uldred willingly put his soul at risk.    As for Olivia and even Orisino, they were under extreme stress in a life or death situation in  an area where the veil is so thin it virtually doesn't exist.  The rules change and things become dicier when the veil is that thin.  Even then Olivia would not have become an abomintion had she not been backed into a corner, with her life on the line.  The Orsino scene is simply too stupid for words.  Finally the case for Fiona in the deep roads is exactly the same.  The Veil is virtually non-existant there.  The demon could have possessed any of them.  Yes demons tend to seek out mages to possess, but can possess anyone when the veil is that thin.

Solution.  Treat areas of the veil that are that thin like toxic waste dumps.  Don't blame mages everywhere for the side effects of a thin veil in a handfull of places.

-Polaris

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

It can't work that way.  If it did, then every third mage would become a world destroying abomination before he reached of age.

Magical talent does not manifest at birth. It takes at least a few years to appear, at which point most mages are taken off to the Circle to be trained. (Or if they're Dalish, they begin studying under a Keeper. Or, in the case of many apostates, they begin studying another apostate.) Perhaps demons do not notice budding mages until their abilities appear.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 02:28 .

[David Gaider]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Is the emancipation of the Circles of Magi going to mean more insane mage antagonists in DLC and Dragon Age 3? Will Hawke be denied meaningful choice in the narrative of the DLCs and forced down a linear progression to deal with insane and stupid mage antagonists? Will the mage antagonists continue to be depicted as insane and stupid characters?

Will the Divine ever apologize for oppressing all those poor, unjustifiably-portrayed insane mages? Will the writers ever admit to hating freedom as much as they clearly must? Will Anders ever get his cat back? Will the same three posters ever stop posting variations on the same topic over and over again?

These questions and MORE answered on the News @ 11!

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...
  Yes demons tend to seek out mages to possess, but can possess anyone when the veil is that thin.

Solution.  Treat areas of the veil that are that thin like toxic waste dumps.  Don't blame mages everywhere for the side effects of a thin veil in a handfull of places.

-Polaris

This is part of the reason I don't like this concept of a "thin veil." It removes the responsiblity of the danger posed by a person from the person. Maybe mages thin the veil whereever they go, like the darkspawn spread the taint. That might be more interesting, imo. Oh well. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that isn't the way it is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

This is not going to go well.

[thats1evildude]

David Gaider wrote...

Will the Divine ever apologize for oppressing all those poor, unjustifiably-portrayed insane mages? Will the writers ever admit to hating freedom as much as they clearly must?

Oh, David, you delightful cad. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 02:37 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is not going to go well.

Agreed.

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is not going to go well.

We'll have a few of the same people saying Gaider has an anti-mage agenda, the post will be quoted out of context a few times and then the pro-mage cycle repeats. Don't worry, it's marked on my calendar.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 août 2011 - 02:37 .

[IanPolaris]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Is the emancipation of the Circles of Magi going to mean more insane mage antagonists in DLC and Dragon Age 3? Will Hawke be denied meaningful choice in the narrative of the DLCs and forced down a linear progression to deal with insane and stupid mage antagonists? Will the mage antagonists continue to be depicted as insane and stupid characters?

Will the Divine ever apologize for oppressing all those poor, unjustifiably-portrayed insane mages? Will the writers ever admit to hating freedom as much as they clearly must? Will Anders ever get his cat back? Will the same three posters ever stop posting variations on the same topic over and over again?

These questions and MORE answered on the News @ 11!

Perhaps, just perhaps mind you, a choice that you think is morally grey really isn't?  Just saying.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is not going to go well.

We'll have a few of the same people saying Gaider has an anti-mage agenda, the post will be quoted out of context a few times and then the pro-mage cycle repeats. Don't worry, it's marked on my calendar.

There is a simple solution to that, you realize.

-Polaris