1253 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

Zanallen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think that's what he wanted.

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion? We gotta tell the Anders thread people. They will want to know.

They do.

They think it's impressively canny on his part.

[Zanallen]

Quething wrote...

They do.

They think it's impressively canny on his part.

Oh it is. It is also impressively bastardly.

[Dave of Canada]

Zanallen wrote...

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion?

Basically, yes? Like he himself states, he's removing the chance of compromise. Unless removing compromise means mages are going to continue living in their current state and not do anything?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[esper]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion?

Basically, yes? Like he himself states, he's removing the chance of compromise. Unless removing compromise means mages are going to continue living in their current state and not do anything?

Yes that is what he wanted. To force every mage to fight for their rights... It is brutal, but effective.

[Zanallen]

esper wrote...

Yes that is what he wanted. To force every mage to fight for their rights... It is brutal, but effective.

This makes me wish the mages ultimately lose even more.

[Urzon]

This makes me wish the mages ultimately lose even more.

Yes, because all the mages voted on if Anders should blow up the Chantry or not, thus throwing alot of innocents into a war that could cost them their lives. /sarcasm

Modifié par Urzon, 12 septembre 2011 - 11:32 .

[Zanallen]

Urzon wrote...

Yes, because all the mages voted on if Anders should blow up the Chantry or not, thus throwing alot of innocents into a war that could cost them their lives. /sarcasm

Oh, I thought it was generally established that I don't like mages and feel they need regulation in order for the majority population to retain a modicum of safety. But lets give the mages of Kirkwall a pass and say they were forced into it. Life or death and all that. What about the other mages? Overthrowing their circles, even those that are no where near as harsh as Kirkwall's, and people being killed in the fighting. They had a choice and they chose war.

[Maconbar]

Zanallen wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Yes, because all the mages voted on if Anders should blow up the Chantry or not, thus throwing alot of innocents into a war that could cost them their lives. /sarcasm

Oh, I thought it was generally established that I don't like mages and feel they need regulation in order for the majority population to retain a modicum of safety. But lets give the mages of Kirkwall a pass and say they were forced into it. Life or death and all that. What about the other mages? Overthrowing their circles, even those that are no where near as harsh as Kirkwall's, and people being killed in the fighting. They had a choice and they chose war.

But do we know how events proceeded at these other Circles?

[Zanallen]

Maconbar wrote...

But do we know how events proceeded at these other Circles?

I suppose some could have been bloodless with the templars just letting their mage charges walk free to join the growing army, but somehow I doubt it.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

And thus Anders put the fate of the mages in Meredith's hands when he killed Elthina. What a stupid, stupid man.

I think that's what he wanted.

indeed. He knew that if Meredith became a sort of acting Grand Cleric, she would immediately call for an Annulment on the mages for an act they didn't commit because she's that insane and hates mages that much. Thus the mages would see how far the Templars could go if they wanted and that the mages would have to fight to survive. She played right into his hands.

Got to hand it to him really. It's really smart thinking.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

But do we know how events proceeded at these other Circles?

I suppose some could have been bloodless with the templars just letting their mage charges walk free to join the growing army, but somehow I doubt it.

I imagine at some Circles the First Enchanter of each Circle along with the Senior Enchanters held meetings and discussed it privately and then decided to start joining the war effort. Perhaps they began to sabotage the Templars from within the Templars secretly. I dunno.

I also think that the First Enchanter of some Circles and the Knight Commander (or other high ranking Templars within the Circle) may have talked privately and agreed that it was time for war because the system has fallen apart from within and needs to change.

Thus it was of their own volition. Anders didn't force the actual war. He just showed the mages how far the Templars could go if they wanted, and it's the mages themselves who decided that they should fight. There are bound to be Templars supporting the Mages, and perhaps Mages supporting the Rogue Templars. Though I doubt the latter because I wouldn't trust a man going through withdrawal to not run a random sword of mercy through my heart.

But anything's possible. Since Mages don't actually need lyrium, I highly doubt the former would run the risk of the latter.

Also, Asunder is going to give us more insight into how the war began. All we really know is that something is killing Templars left and right in the White Spire in Orlais.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zanallen wrote...

Quething wrote...

They do.

They think it's impressively canny on his part.

Oh it is. It is also impressively bastardly.

Indeed it is. A bastardly deed I can respect , even if it was not well thought out and generally a bad idea. But it worked regardless.

[Maconbar]

Zanallen wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

But do we know how events proceeded at these other Circles?

I suppose some could have been bloodless with the templars just letting their mage charges walk free to join the growing army, but somehow I doubt it.

Could the Templars trigger events at the other Circles by radically clamping down on the mages in response to the events in Kirkwall?

[TEWR]

Maconbar wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

But do we know how events proceeded at these other Circles?

I suppose some could have been bloodless with the templars just letting their mage charges walk free to join the growing army, but somehow I doubt it.

Could the Templars trigger events at the other Circles by radically clamping down on the mages in response to the events in Kirkwall?

I imagine Orlais' Circle did radically squeeze the mages after what happened in Kirkwall, given that it's the seat of Chantry power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, it's the decision of only the Grand Cleric of the region (or the Divine, as she's akin to a nationwide Grand Cleric).

Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the grand clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable. This Right of Annulment has been performed 17 times in the last 700 years.

From the codex entry on the RoA. The Knight Commander cannot decide when a Circle is irredeemable unless there is no Grand Cleric, at which point the Knight Commander assumes the role of something like a Grand Cleric substitute (which is kinda weird for male Knight Commanders outside of Tevinter)

Since a Grand Cleric is not present in the Circles, it is still the Knight-Commander who must send the needed information to a Grand Cleric. needless to say then (but I'm still gonna), if a Knight-Commander doens't find a Circle irredeemable, an annulment won't be called for.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Zanallen wrote...

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion? We gotta tell the Anders thread people. They will want to know.

As Meredith herself says, the people of Kirkwall would have demanded blood for the destruction of Chantry, killing of the Grand Cleric, etc.; and the templars being the "law" there, especially under trigger-happy Meredith, would be almost certain to do it. That's what Anders was more or less certain about. Templars are allegedly the protectors of the people of Kirkwall.

Zanallen wrote...

But lets give the mages of Kirkwall a pass and say they were forced into it. Life or death and all that. What about the other mages? Overthrowing their circles, even those that are no where near as harsh as Kirkwall's, and people being killed in the fighting. They had a choice and they chose war.

Provoking mages in other Circles was also part of Ander's plan - in fact, it was his grander plan, for which he considered the risking of invoking of RoA at Kirkwall as collateral damage. He knew if mages of one Circle could show others that they could defy the templars and the Chantry, others would find courage to do it also. And, apparently, it worked.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

indeed. He knew that if Meredith became a sort of acting Grand Cleric, she would immediately call for an Annulment on the mages for an act they didn't commit because she's that insane and hates mages that much. Thus the mages would see how far the Templars could go if they wanted and that the mages would have to fight to survive. She played right into his hands.

Got to hand it to him really. It's really smart thinking.

I think you're counting your chicken before they hatch.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Since a Grand Cleric is not present in the Circles, it is still the Knight-Commander who must send the needed information to a Grand Cleric. needless to say then (but I'm still gonna), if a Knight-Commander doens't find a Circle irredeemable, an annulment won't be called for.

The issue is it is left to the word of one person (Grand Cleric or Knight-Commander), who must somehow deem a Circle unsalvageable. And as far as I've seen both the Knight-Commanders (in Ferelden and Kirkwall) were in the wrong. Doesn't Knight-Commander Greagoir himself say: "The situation is dire. There is no alternative - everything in the tower must be destroyed so it can be made safe again." Without the Warden, what would have happened? Would the Grand Cleric have taken it upon herself the responsibility to make sure all mages were indeed lost? I somehow doubt it.

As one notes with the exchange between Meredith and Cullen in sparing some mages in the Gallows, the RoA is only a measure of last resort, when every mage is deemed beyond salvation, as he puts it. The unwritten moral rule is what Cullen observes - being a templar means knowing for sure when a mage has employed blood magic for harm, not assuming beforehand that it will be used, and taking responsibility for it. Meredith clearly violates that rule - invoking RoA over the actions of one mage, under the pretext of saying that people would have demanded blood - which I'm sure they'd have. That is not justice by any yardstick one chooses to measure it with.

EDIT: Formatting...

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[TEWR]

I think you're counting your chicken before they hatch

I'm not talking about the war itself and how it would go. I'm talking about the situation in Kirkwall. It was smart thinking for that specific area.

What happened throughout the rest of the world is unknown, and to some is not smart thinking. Whereas others do see it as smart thinking on Anders' part.

[DKJaigen]

Zanallen wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Yes, because all the mages voted on if Anders should blow up the Chantry or not, thus throwing alot of innocents into a war that could cost them their lives. /sarcasm

Oh, I thought it was generally established that I don't like mages and feel they need regulation in order for the majority population to retain a modicum of safety. But lets give the mages of Kirkwall a pass and say they were forced into it. Life or death and all that. What about the other mages? Overthrowing their circles, even those that are no where near as harsh as Kirkwall's, and people being killed in the fighting. They had a choice and they chose war.

Most pro-mage supporter are for regulation but not by the corrupt ineffecient and incompetent templars. after a 1000 year stagnation i believe this need to change for the benefit for all . If war is the catalyst so be it. 

[OldMan91]

DKJaigen wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Yes, because all the mages voted on if Anders should blow up the Chantry or not, thus throwing alot of innocents into a war that could cost them their lives. /sarcasm

Oh, I thought it was generally established that I don't like mages and feel they need regulation in order for the majority population to retain a modicum of safety. But lets give the mages of Kirkwall a pass and say they were forced into it. Life or death and all that. What about the other mages? Overthrowing their circles, even those that are no where near as harsh as Kirkwall's, and people being killed in the fighting. They had a choice and they chose war.

Most pro-mage supporter are for regulation but not by the corrupt ineffecient and incompetent templars. after a 1000 year stagnation i believe this need to change for the benefit for all . If war is the catalyst so be it. 

Quite. In truth everyone would benefit, not just the mages, if the Chantry were to be separated from the political realm.

"Any institution which does not suppose the people good, and the magistrate corruptible, is evil." 

[Shadow Fox]

Zanallen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think that's what he wanted.

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion? We gotta tell the Anders thread people. They will want to know.

...Oh how I wish that there was a soul harvesting weapon in this game and I could kill Anders,Meredith,Quentin,Grace,Alrik and Orsino with it death's too good for those ****s...

[Maconbar]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think that's what he wanted.

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion? We gotta tell the Anders thread people. They will want to know.

...Oh how I wish that there was a soul harvesting weapon in this game and I could kill Anders,Meredith,Quentin,Grace,Alrik and Orsino with it death's too good for those ****s...

There is. It's the murder knife.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Maconbar wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think that's what he wanted.

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion? We gotta tell the Anders thread people. They will want to know.

...Oh how I wish that there was a soul harvesting weapon in this game and I could kill Anders,Meredith,Quentin,Grace,Alrik and Orsino with it death's too good for those ****s...

There is. It's the murder knife.

It was wasted on Javaris. One hint that Hawke is invariably a moron. He considers him more worthy of it than anyone of the others.

[Shadow Fox]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think that's what he wanted.

He wanted to cause the right of annulment? He wanted Meredith to start killing innocent mages in order to force them into a fight or die situation, basically removing their choice and forcing the mages into rebellion? We gotta tell the Anders thread people. They will want to know.

...Oh how I wish that there was a soul harvesting weapon in this game and I could kill Anders,Meredith,Quentin,Grace,Alrik and Orsino with it death's too good for those ****s...

There is. It's the murder knife.

It was wasted on Javaris. One hint that Hawke is invariably a moron. He considers him more worthy of it than anyone of the others.

Hawke wasn't being moronic but a ****/dick when s/he killed Jarvis.

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Anders didn't force the actual war. He just showed the mages how far the Templars could go if they wanted,

 
Don't you mean if pushed?  It would have been if they wanted if the Meredith/Orsino argument had lead to Annulment without Anders' intervention, and Anders had merely related events to other mages, but his actions forced Meredith's as surely as Meredith's forced the mages.

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Anders didn't force the actual war. He just showed the mages how far the Templars could go if they wanted,

 
Don't you mean if pushed?  It would have been if they wanted if the Meredith/Orsino argument had lead to Annulment without Anders' intervention, and Anders had merely related events to other mages, but his actions forced Meredith's as surely as Meredith's forced the mages.

Meredith wasn't forced to call for an Annulment against the Circle. They were innocent of the crime that was committed and the Circle wasn't irredeemable. She had been itching to annul the Circle for a long time (Kerras in Act 3) and had her own issues from her childhood that she uses to unfairly paint all mages with the same brush.

Meredith would've probably slain Elthina eventually and called it a "mercy killing for her friend" using the reasoning of maleficarum controlling her, along with any other Chantry sisters that assumed the role of Grand cleric. She would probably use the same reasoning. Eventually, they'd either side with Meredith out of fear or agreement.