1253 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I remember she was a desire abomination actually. Might be misremembering.

You are.  Gameplay says pride anyway.

-Polaris

Yea just saw the vid, you're right.

Why didn't she turn into an actual Pride Demon like Uldred?

[TEWR]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I find that (and by that I mean the cinematic of the RoA) to be just as absurd when Orsino clearly decided to gather up every mage of his for a last stand.

Well, not all of them... there's only a few mages in that sanctum. There's that cutscene beforehand that shows the mages getting mowed down in the main hall. Though come to think of it you have to wonder what their strategy was, putting the individuals most able to aid in the defense of the mages (Hawke and company, Orsino) at the farthest reach of their defenses, and letting the bulk of the mages get slaughtered on the front line...

Besides, it still doesn't make sense for him to do it. It's more understandable for what's going through his mind, but it doesn't make sense for him to do it. He knew people would die. He thinks that turning into a brainless flesh construct that will kill everything in its path is going to solve things?

It was supposed to be an "if I go down I'm taking you all down with me" sort of moment, I suppose. He gave up trying to beat the templars in a way that involved his survival, so he activated the nuke on his forearm and started laughing at Arnold Schwarzenegger, little did he know Arnold was a world class sprinter.

That sanctum could've been used against the Templars. It's a perfect funnel. And I'm sure there was a way for him to get some mages to the top of the tower to rain down glorious magical apocalyptica all over the Templars as they were crossing on their boats.

There would've still been boats for the mages to use because they had to have gotten to the Gallows somehow when Orsino says "Go! Get to the Gallows as fast as you can!" during the Last Straw.

But of course, NPCs have to be incompetent idiots.

And why would he want to take down everyone? Everyone consists of his charges and the person who sided with him, who believed that Meredith needed to be ousted from power either forcibly or diplomatically. There is no justification for writing something so absurd for a character that was described as putting his charges before his own desires.

Yeah that could have worked, only the templars had already cut their way through all the teenagers in the circle and were at Orsinos face in a matter of minutes.

It takes a good amount of time for those ships to cross the distance. And Meredith says "Go. Gather your people. My Templars will be crossing in a little while."

If she had enough people, she would've acted on the Annulment then and there, but she didn't. She had to wait and organize her own people.

Not to mention the fact that Hawke can have a conversation with all of his comrades.



Look at how tall the Gallows are. There's no way the Templars could've scaled that place in minutes.

He figured they were going to die too, so he'd just go ahead and kill them himself ('what difference does it make' line of thinking) and then kill Meredith and all the templars.

I'm referring to the climax of the movie "Predator."

Ah so Orsino gets to decide the fate of everyone of his people instead of calmly thinking of a way that they could actually survive, which consists of using the funnel. Brilliant plan there, First Enchanter!


And it's been some time since I've seen Predator. Get to da choppa!

[thats1evildude]

RE: Mages as drunk drivers

We require people to undergo testing and training before they allow them on the road, and even then they have to follow a strict set of rules to continue driving. And we don't allow people to drive drunk, which nets one of the harshest penalties one can receive. How is that comparable to letting mages freely practice magic? And besides, no one person with a vehicle can possibly wreak as much havoc and destruction as a single powerful mage, particularly if they're using blood magic.

AND EVEN THEN, no one can force me to get drunk and then get behind the wheel of a vehicle, not unless they were willing to hold a gun to my head the entire time and then get in the car beside me. (And why the hell would they?) Demons CAN forcibly possess mages against their will. There's no comparison between abominations and drunk drivers.

God, I think I'm dumber just for having listened to that nonsense.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 03:28 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Uldred was forcibly possessed when he summoned a Pride Demon, which resulted in him screaming in pain until he wasn't Uldred anymore.

He was very clear about already being possessed in the dialogue, laughing at being called Uldred and saying he's "so much more" and how mages are "a larval form of something much greater."

If Grace was possessed, she would've broken out of the Gallows long before Best Served Cold. She would've gone on a killing spree, or tried to take over the Gallows. I doubt any Pride Abomination would be so concerned with what Grace was feeling regarding Decimus or to be concerned about keeping people alive. Now if she was a Desire Abomination, I could perhaps believe she had been possessed during BSC. But I fail to see a connection between pride and love.

The higher end demons are smart enough to lay low when it suits their long term goals. Connor's desire demon would do the same thing. It offered the Warden a deal that she'd give him a bribe in exchange for pretending she was slain and she'd ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL on him in a few years.

In fact, I don't even see how she could become a Pride Abomination when all she talked about was Decimus!

Hmm. Yeah, that doesn't make sense. But then again, not much of BSC does.

thats1evildude wrote...

That's still a godawful analogy.

Oh hey, someone doesn't like an analogy that directly opposes their opinion. I'm shocked, truly. Usually people love analogies that disagree with them!

[Follow Me on Twitter]

They dont scale to the top. Atleast in my playthrough i remember heading right at the gates into some room not even a floor up. I could be wrong through i'd need to reply the ending to double check.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 30 août 2011 - 03:28 .

[thats1evildude]

Rifneno wrote...

Oh hey, someone doesn't like an analogy that directly opposes their opinion. I'm shocked, truly. Usually people love analogies that disagree with them!

It would help if you used an analogy that actually made ****ing sense.

But feel free to play the victim here. That's a common fallback position in a debate when one realizes their original point is untenable.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 03:31 .

[Xilizhra]

thats1evildude wrote...

RE: Mages as drunk drivers

We require people to undergo testing and training before they allow them on the road, and even then they have to follow a strict set of rules to continue driving. And we don't allow people to drive drunk, which nets one of the harshest penalties one can receive. How is that comparable to letting mages freely practice magic? And besides, no one person with a vehicle can possibly wreak as much havoc and destruction as a single powerful mage, particularly if they're using blood magic.

AND EVEN THEN, no one can force me to get drunk and then get behind the wheel of a vehicle, not unless they were willing to hold a gun to my head the entire time and then get in the car beside me. (And why the hell would they?) Demons CAN forcibly possess mages against their will. There's no comparison between abominations and drunk drivers.

God, I think I'm dumber just for having listened to that nonsense.

You're missing the point of the analogy. DEMONS are the drunk drivers who are hitting the innocent drivers, mages.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Uldred was forcibly possessed when he summoned a Pride Demon, which resulted in him screaming in pain until he wasn't Uldred anymore.

He was very clear about already being possessed in the dialogue, laughing at being called Uldred and saying he's "so much more" and how mages are "a larval form of something much greater."

If Grace was possessed, she would've broken out of the Gallows long before Best Served Cold. She would've gone on a killing spree, or tried to take over the Gallows. I doubt any Pride Abomination would be so concerned with what Grace was feeling regarding Decimus or to be concerned about keeping people alive. Now if she was a Desire Abomination, I could perhaps believe she had been possessed during BSC. But I fail to see a connection between pride and love.

The higher end demons are smart enough to lay low when it suits their long term goals. Connor's desire demon would do the same thing. It offered the Warden a deal that she'd give him a bribe in exchange for pretending she was slain and she'd ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL on him in a few years.

In fact, I don't even see how she could become a Pride Abomination when all she talked about was Decimus!

Hmm. Yeah, that doesn't make sense. But then again, not much of BSC does.

thats1evildude wrote...

That's still a godawful analogy.

Oh hey, someone doesn't like an analogy that directly opposes their opinion. I'm shocked, truly. Usually people love analogies that disagree with them!

Niall says that Uldred summoned a Pride Demon and it assumed direct control, and when Uldred stopped screaming he was simply.... gone.

Which makes me wonder.... what happens to the soul of the mage? Is it still there, trapped beneath layers of Abominationhood? Or has it died much like a person would if you killed them?

The Templars are a threat to her being an Abomination, and Anders points out that Abominations would defend themselves (he would know ). Merrill shows us that blood mages - something Kirkwall has in abundance due to a dictator plot thin Veil - can smell demons in a person's blood.

Which makes me wonder how Keran was bleeding when he had no wounds at all on his body.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah so Orsino gets to decide the fate of everyone of his people instead of calmly thinking of a way that they could actually survive, which consists of using the funnel. Brilliant plan there, First Enchanter!

The only people left were Hawke and his companions and Orsino and a handful of mages. Again, it's not a plan. It's giving up. He probably didn't even expect the abomination he would become to be able to defeat all the templars. He just figures what difference does it make, I may as well give them a hell of a time if I'm going to let them kill me.

Except the difference is vast.
Him turning into a suicidal monster would justify everything Meredith did, and would give pertinence to her argument that she is protecting mages from their own stupidity. So instead of going down like a martyr, he decides to go down like a lunatic.

I can understand trying to make sense of this in the game, but out-game we already know why this happened. Because they wanted a boss fight for the sake of it, nothing more and nothing less. Trying to come up with reasons is ultimately irrelevent, they did not care about any reason themselves.

[Shadow Fox]

IanPolaris wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Is the emancipation of the Circles of Magi going to mean more insane mage antagonists in DLC and Dragon Age 3? Will Hawke be denied meaningful choice in the narrative of the DLCs and forced down a linear progression to deal with insane and stupid mage antagonists? Will the mage antagonists continue to be depicted as insane and stupid characters?

Will the Divine ever apologize for oppressing all those poor, unjustifiably-portrayed insane mages? Will the writers ever admit to hating freedom as much as they clearly must? Will Anders ever get his cat back? Will the same three posters ever stop posting variations on the same topic over and over again?

These questions and MORE answered on the News @ 11!

Perhaps, just perhaps mind you, a choice that you think is morally grey really isn't?  Just saying.

-Polaris

Judgeing by how many arguments have been had about this I'd say most people do see it as a grey choice.

[thats1evildude]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're missing the point of the analogy. DEMONS are the drunk drivers who are hitting the innocent drivers, mages.

But that makes even less sense, as many drunk drivers only incur injury to themselves and not other drivers, passengers or pedestrians.

Even if demons incur harm while attempting (and failing) to possess mages, who cares?! THEY'RE DEMONS!

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah so Orsino gets to decide the fate of everyone of his people instead of calmly thinking of a way that they could actually survive, which consists of using the funnel. Brilliant plan there, First Enchanter!

The only people left were Hawke and his companions and Orsino and a handful of mages. Again, it's not a plan. It's giving up. He probably didn't even expect the abomination he would become to be able to defeat all the templars. He just figures what difference does it make, I may as well give them a hell of a time if I'm going to let them kill me.

Except the difference is vast.
Him turning into a suicidal monster would justify everything Meredith did, and would give pertinence to her argument that she is protecting mages from their own stupidity. So instead of going down like a martyr, he decides to go down like a lunatic.

I can understand trying to make sense of this in the game, but out-game we already know why this happened. Because they wanted a boss fight for the sake of it, nothing more and nothing less. Trying to come up with reasons is ultimately irrelevent, they did not care about any reason themselves.

Everything they were doing at that point was already "justified" at that point because of what Anders did.

Orsino made it clear after Anders confessed to what he did that he had doomed all the mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Everything they were doing at that point was already "justified" at that point because of what Anders did.

Orsino made it clear after Anders confessed to what he did that he had doomed all the mages.

No, because the Circle had nothing to do with what Anders did and the lunatic Meredith knows it.

Orsino said that because he knew Meredith was goign to do what she did.

[IanPolaris]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Judgeing by how many arguments have been had about this I'd say most people do see it as a grey choice.

Gotta disagree.  At best outside BSN, players regard the choice as black vs black or idiot vs idiot.

There is nothing morally grey about slaughtering a group of people down to the last child for a crime they obviously didn't commit, and especially not when you ignore the obviously (and confessed) guilty party.

-Polaris

[The Baconer]

thats1evildude wrote...

RE: Mages as drunk drivers

We require people to undergo testing and training before they allow them on the road, and even then they have to follow a strict set of rules to continue driving. And we don't allow people to drive drunk, which nets one of the harshest penalties one can receive. How is that comparable to letting mages freely practice magic? And besides, no one person with a vehicle can possibly wreak as much havoc and destruction as a single powerful mage, particularly if they're using blood magic.

AND EVEN THEN, no one can force me to get drunk and then get behind the wheel of a vehicle, not unless they were willing to hold a gun to my head the entire time and then get in the car beside me. (And why the hell would they?) Demons CAN forcibly possess mages against their will. There's no comparison between abominations and drunk drivers.

God, I think I'm dumber just for having listened to that nonsense.

Pff, I know. Maybe some of these mage 'supporters' should use simpler arguments that don't require such asinine stretches of logic.

All you need to say is: Tevinter got it right. We don't need any complicated solutions to the mage 'problem' because mages don't have to pay heed to the complaints of beings infinitely beneath them.

Bam. It's clean. It's simple. It's factual. No more debate required.

[Rifneno]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

They dont scale to the top. Atleast in my playthrough i remember heading right at the gates into some room not even a floor up. I could be wrong through i'd need to reply the ending to double check.

We don't see the whole place. Ferelden's tower was the same way. We only saw I think 4 floors, but from looking at the tower from the outside it's clearly got at LEAST ten times that. They can't really design an entire area that huge. It would cost a fortune and we'd just find it boring 20 minutes into the 10 hour quest. Which isn't to say the whole place is occupied... we've never had a decent idea how big Kirkwall's Circle is, or any other Circle, or even a ballpark of how rare mages are, That tower could be utterly packed and overflow into the dungeons below... or they could only be using two floors.

Xilizhra wrote...

You're missing the point of the analogy. DEMONS are the drunk drivers who are hitting the innocent drivers, mages.

Waste of time. I'm pretty sure he's just harping on the analogy so we'll focus on that instead of the actual issue. Either way, not worth the bother.

[TEWR]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

They dont scale to the top. Atleast in my playthrough i remember heading right at the gates into some room not even a floor up. I could be wrong through i'd need to reply the ending to double check.

IIRC, moving the camera around shows that there's a large abyss going down from the platform where Orsino and company are.

Filament wrote...

The only people left were Hawke and his companions and Orsino and a handful of mages (well, no mages since they all inexplicably die, except Bethany maybe ). Again, it's not a plan. It's giving up. He probably didn't even expect the abomination he would become to be able to defeat all the templars. He just figures what difference does it make, I may as well give them a hell of a time if I'm going to let them kill me.

Not true. Some mages (as well as Templars), flee when he decides to do his idiot magic trick, and there are even more mages in the other parts of the Gallows along with Templars who aren't killing people.

Varric states that because of Hawke's actions many mages escaped. And Orsino was told to gather his people. We find out that the Gallows housed hundreds of mages prior to the influx of Starkhaven's mages. He had no reason to think that all the mages were dead and that it was hopeless. At least not until a funnel tactic begun to fail. And it didn't.

Either way, it doesn't matter. It was shoddy writing for a poorly written character in the base game when he could've been a badass First Enchanter and at least a commander of some of the mage forces. Or at least the person who informs Irving/new FE of what happened, since he'd be given more respect than any other random mage of Kirkwall's Circle.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah so Orsino gets to decide the fate of everyone of his people instead of calmly thinking of a way that they could actually survive, which consists of using the funnel. Brilliant plan there, First Enchanter!

The only people left were Hawke and his companions and Orsino and a handful of mages. Again, it's not a plan. It's giving up. He probably didn't even expect the abomination he would become to be able to defeat all the templars. He just figures what difference does it make, I may as well give them a hell of a time if I'm going to let them kill me.

Except the difference is vast.
Him turning into a suicidal monster would justify everything Meredith did, and would give pertinence to her argument that she is protecting mages from their own stupidity. So instead of going down like a martyr, he decides to go down like a lunatic.

I can understand trying to make sense of this in the game, but out-game we already know why this happened. Because they wanted a boss fight for the sake of it, nothing more and nothing less. Trying to come up with reasons is ultimately irrelevent, they did not care about any reason themselves.

You took the words out of my mouth and typed them out. Thank you KoP. 

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

Will the Divine ever apologize for oppressing all those poor, unjustifiably-portrayed insane mages? Will the writers ever admit to hating freedom as much as they clearly must?

I don't find antagonists who are foolish and insane lunatics compelling. I paid money and received a story that I found severely lacking. Making antagonists insane and foolish doesn't compel me to get invested in this story. Decimus, Grace, Huon, Quentin, Endgame Orsino, Tahrone, the list goes on for subpar mage antagonists that are insane and boring. What's compelling about antagonists who act like idiots, who are insane for no reason?

David Gaider wrote...

Will Anders ever get his cat back?

Will Hawke actually be pro-active and intelligent for once? Will the protagonist stop letting dangerous people go (Sheparding Wolves, Legacy)? Will players be allowed to chose dialogue options that allow them to have the protagonist speak what's intended, instead of something completely different?

David Gaider wrote...

Will the same three posters ever post posting variations on the same topic over and over again?

I would like to see some complexity enter Dragon Age, I have no interest in boring, insane antagonists. I found Dragon Age 2 to be a game with recycled environments, repeated waves of enemies, a lazy protagonist who doesn't even bother to investigate the incriminating hand-written letter found in the lair of his mother's killer, and a "story" with a plethora of insane mages. All your post addresses is that nothing is going to change because you seem to be upset that people have an opinion.

Should I apologize for wanting antagonists to be engaging, to be multi-faceted? Fallout: New Vegas has a myraid of factions, with different goals and flaws. Even Cesar, who many would argue is the villain, isn't simply "insane" and "stupid." I have no interest in insane and stupid antagonists, and clearly some feel the same way. Since I paid money for Legacy, and I found the same problems still exist in the narrative of DLC for Dragon Age 2, I chose to address them. Legacy repeated the same mistakes: Hawke is still reactive, choice still doesn't matter, Hawke still allows the villain to walk away, so why shouldn't I wonder if mage antagonists are still going to be insane and stupid?

[Follow Me on Twitter]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Everything they were doing at that point was already "justified" at that point because of what Anders did.

Orsino made it clear after Anders confessed to what he did that he had doomed all the mages.

No, because the Circle had nothing to do with what Anders did and the lunatic Meredith knows it.

Orsino said that because he knew Meredith was goign to do what she did.

Exactly. But before that he was still heading to the grand cleric so she could finally settle it.It was clear to Hawke she was insane as well seeing as after finishing her last "investigation" turned up nothing he pretty much called her insane and told her to drop it. Hawke and Orsino could have convinced the grand cleric meredith was clearly insane and put in end to her control of the templers she knew this and thats  why she chased after him to try and stop him before he could reach her.

All Anders  did was kill the only person that could have actually stopped the situation from esculating to the point of war and set everything in motion.

There is only so much one insane person can do if the grand cleric had made her step down the rest of the templars would have followed.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 30 août 2011 - 03:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

Maybe none of that makes a difference to someone who's already dead.

So insane lunatic vs irresponsable imbecile who doesn't care past his own death (considering him researching about the harvester in the first place, endangering everyone in his charge for no reason, it's likely).
Either case, completely undevelopped and poorly written. And utterly uninteresting to me. Him and the entire conflict he was in.