1253 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

The Baconer wrote...

Pff, I know. Maybe some of these mage 'supporters' should use simpler arguments that don't require such asinine stretches of logic.

I outlined my reasons why the drunk driver analogy falls flat. Is it so much to ask for people to use arguments that don't compare apples to oranges and actually make sense? I mean, you don't hear me saying "Letting mages have their freedom is like promoting brother-sister incest, because even though your sister may be a hot piece of tail, it ultimately leads to problems down the road."

I DON'T SAY THAT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, MAN! IT'S NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL! 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2011 - 03:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...
All Anders  did was kill the only person that could have actually stopped the situation from esculating to the point of war and set everything in motion.

And that does not justify Meredith at all, the Circle had nothing to do with it. Which was my point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Filament wrote...

Maybe none of that makes a difference to someone who's already dead.

So insane lunatic vs irresponsable imbecile who doesn't care past his own death (considering him researching about the harvester in the first place, endangering everyone in his charge for no reason, it's likely).

Endangering everyone in his charge? They're already dead too.

Researching the Harvester in the first place, aka long before Act 3.
Why was he researching it?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Yeah, but it was justified in her screwed up mind. And hey who was going to stop her Anders had made sure there was no way for compromise.

And the op is complaining about insane mages? Sup Meredith leader of the insane brigade.

Only person to blame from both sides is Anders. I killed him on all my playthroughs his stupidity led everyone he was fighting for to be slaughtered.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 30 août 2011 - 04:02 .

[phaonica]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And the op is complaining about insane mages? Sup Meredith leader of the insane brigade.

No lie. Mages hardly had the monopoly on insane and stupid.

Modifié par phaonica, 30 août 2011 - 03:52 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah, but it was justified in her screwed up mind. And hey who was going to stop her Anders had made sure there was no way for compromise.

And the op is complaining about insane mages? Sup Meredith leader of the insane brigade.

Meredith has the excuse of the lyrium idols. Templars are given excuses for their zealotry, and sometimes even good intentions.

If a mage uses blood magic? BAM! Instant evil!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah, but it was justified in her screwed up mind. And hey who was going to stop her Anders had made sure there was no way for compromise.

Who cares about what goes on in Meredith's absent mind. Referring more to the Templars in her charge who have been doubting her since Act 2, and the people of Kirkwall. And other mages.

[Shadow Fox]

IanPolaris wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Judgeing by how many arguments have been had about this I'd say most people do see it as a grey choice.

Gotta disagree.  At best outside BSN, players regard the choice as black vs black or idiot vs idiot.

There is nothing morally grey about slaughtering a group of people down to the last child for a crime they obviously didn't commit, and especially not when you ignore the obviously (and confessed) guilty party.

-Polaris

Pfft that is grey by Bioware standards!

And Anders' bomb was a stupid justifacation but the reason I side with  the Templars was because these mages are turning into mindless monsters and summoning demons and my personal version of Hawke  was already planning on "taking care" of Meredith and becoming KC herself and cleaning out the Templars ranks...sadly I couldn't do that in game but there's always fanficton!

[TEWR]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah, but it was justified in her screwed up mind. And hey who was going to stop her Anders had made sure there was no way for compromise.

And the op is complaining about insane mages? Sup Meredith leader of the insane brigade.

Makes you wonder why Hawke didn't just kill Meredith and all of her cronies that were standing there.

And it doesn't matter how she rationalizes it. A monkey could see that she was overstepping her bounds and executing mages for a crime they did not commit. She's wanted to kill mages for so long because of her own personal sob story regarding her sister (which because it comes so late I choose not to believe it and say the idol made her make it up).

It's what she wanted, not what's justified.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Researching the Harvester in the first place, aka long before Act 3.
Why was he researching it?

...he wasn't researching it, he had an eidetic memory. Right TEWR?

I don't know. He's also another douchebag blood mage, yes. Hawke should have killed him for that alone (well, that and aiding Quentin, etc). I'm just judging from the way he acts for the rest of the game in contrast to the way he acts there in the sanctum and reconciling the two. Taking into account those other aspects of his character that were pretty poorly developed (his Harvester research), yeah maybe that was his secret motive all along and he's just another insane douchebag blood mage, full stop.

He is a poor mess of a character in a disaster of a final act and building up of a conflict.
That sounds like the most accurate way to describe him to me. And he's far from being the only one.

And with the reaching of an agreement somehwat, I am off to bed. Night

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 août 2011 - 03:56 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Do you know what DA3 needs?

Mage Rorschach.

[Rifneno]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah, but it was justified in her screwed up mind. And hey who was going to stop her Anders had made sure there was no way for compromise.

And the op is complaining about insane mages? Sup Meredith leader of the insane brigade.

She certainly is, but there was  a good backstory and reason for her.  The trauma from her sister going abomination and then of course the idol.  She was reasonably well developed and explained.  For mages like Grace, Idunna, or Huon all we have is a few obscure codexes explaining Kirkwall is made of insanity.  Which is never discussed between characters or really entered into the plot.  And is just nonsensical since there's no way it would go unnoticed beyond those few codex writers if it was really responsible for the difference between the mages in DAO and DA2.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah, but it was justified in her screwed up mind. And hey who was going to stop her Anders had made sure there was no way for compromise.

And the op is complaining about insane mages? Sup Meredith leader of the insane brigade.

Makes you wonder why Hawke didn't just kill Meredith and all of her cronies that were standing there.

And it doesn't matter how she rationalizes it. A monkey could see that she was overstepping her bounds and executing mages for a crime they did not commit. She's wanted to kill mages for so long because of her own personal sob story regarding her sister (which because it comes so late I choose not to believe it and say the idol made her make it up).

It's what she wanted, not what's justified.

The idol warped her mind but like i said if Hawke and Orsino would have been able to approach the cleric im pretty sure all the templars like Cullen would have stood against Meredith then it just would have been one insane woman vs a group of pissed off mages, hawke and templars that wanted her gone.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 30 août 2011 - 04:00 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Researching the Harvester in the first place, aka long before Act 3.
Why was he researching it?

...he wasn't researching it, he had an eidetic memory. Right TEWR?

I don't know. He's also another douchebag blood mage, yes. Hawke should have killed him for that alone (well, that and aiding Quentin, etc). I'm just judging from the way he acts for the rest of the game in contrast to the way he acts there in the sanctum and reconciling the two. Taking into account those other aspects of his character that were pretty poorly developed (his Harvester research), yeah maybe that was his secret motive all along and he's just another insane douchebag blood mage, full stop.

 yep he didn't want to know about something so horrific, but due to his eidetic memory and his rereading of something to make sure he was seeing it straight it was permanently embedded in his mind.

That's a piece of what I thought up so that I could give him some characterization everybody. Would've made him an interesting character, especially if he didn't go all Harvestino.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 août 2011 - 04:00 .

[phaonica]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

The idol warped her mind but like i said if Hawke and Orsino would have been able to approach the cleric im pretty sure all the templars like Cullen would have stood against Meredith then it just would have been one insane woman vs a group of pissed of mages, hawke and templars that wanted her gone.

He would at least have promised to look into it.

[Dragoonlordz]

"Will mages continue to be depicted as insane and stupid in DLC?"

I think the templars were shown to be far more retarded, mage Hawke, Anders, Merrill, Bethany in Kirkwall showed that to be true. As for Mage / Templar issue on grander scale it will come down to one of two things, either Bioware will show bias to one side or the other via writing the story from this point on or they will give the player the deciding factor in the games. Now as we all know history is written by the victors and any such truth attempted to be buried in the past.

As for Orsino and Meredith, Orsino was the better of the two as far as composure and intelligence goes, until ofcourse when they threw all that out the window right at the end for no apparent or valid imho reason. Meredith corrupted by the idol was a very silly thing to do much like the destruction of a great persona had already with Orsino, the writing about her (imho) should of been based on her own persona and personal conflicts without the use of the idol so not use some magical item to railroad the story.

It's a shame because I thought they were very well done up until the end where one had the silly breakdown prematurley and the other relied on some magical idol to force the progression of plot.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 août 2011 - 04:19 .

[David Gaider]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Of course, if the OP's questions were ever answered, instead of mocked, perhaps they would cease. Then again, if you deliberately answered the questions in a way that would anger those poor stupid pro-mage posters, and they react very, very, very badly, you'd have the necessary pretext to bring out the ban-hammer.

Then you'd never see these threads again.

Have you not been on these forums long?

I've attempted to engage certain posters in a conversation on this subject before, and considering half the "evidence" brought up is a mixture of conjecture and subjective opinion the argument can and clearly does go around in circles ad infinitum. So, no, I see no need to answer more leading questions on the subject-- particularly when actual answers aren't being sought.

But feel free to continue the debate, if you like, provided everyone keeps the spittle and gesticulations to a minimum.

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

David Gaider wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Of course, if the OP's questions were ever answered, instead of mocked, perhaps they would cease. Then again, if you deliberately answered the questions in a way that would anger those poor stupid pro-mage posters, and they react very, very, very badly, you'd have the necessary pretext to bring out the ban-hammer.

Then you'd never see these threads again.

Have you not been on these forums long?

I've attempted to engage certain posters in a conversation on this subject before, and considering half the "evidence" brought up is a mixture of conjecture and subjective opinion the argument can and clearly does go around in circles ad infinitum. So, no, I see no need to answer more leading questions on the subject-- particularly when actual answers aren't being sought.

But feel free to continue the debate, if you like, provided everyone keeps the spittle and gesticulations to a minimum.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter =( 

[Dave of Canada]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter =(

You could google them, though some discussions predate DA2 and it would be difficult to find them all. I'll try to find a few and post them when I do.

[LobselVith8]

I certainly wouldn't argue in favor of making any antagonist to be stupid and insane, Dragoonlordz. And why show bias? Why not simply have factions and allow players to chose a particular side? Certainly not every mage or templar needs to be depicted as an insipid fool. I still recall Hawke telling Cullen about Anders plot against the Chantry, with Anders standing right next to Hawke, while Cullen brushed off the conversation...

...but apparently, expecting characters to show some semblance of intelligence is "subjective." I guess Hawke letting Petrice walk away after she tried to start a religious war is another example of brilliance in Kirkwall, or Hawke standing idly by while Grace discusses murdering the hostage, or when she murders Thrask right in front of Hawke...

[AngryFrozenWater]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter =(

You could google them, though some discussions predate DA2 and it would be difficult to find them all. I'll try to find a few and post them when I do.

How hard is it for Mr Laidlaw it to simply answer them, instead of putting the same energy in avoiding them?

Edit: Changed for clarity.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[Dragoonlordz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I certainly wouldn't argue in favor of making any antagonist to be stupid and insane, Dragoonlordz. And why show bias? Why not simply have factions and allow players to chose a particular side? Certainly not every mage or templar needs to be depicted as an insipid fool. I still recall Hawke telling Cullen about Anders plot against the Chantry, with Anders standing right next to Hawke, while Cullen brushed off the conversation...

...but apparently, expecting characters to show some semblance of intelligence is "subjective." I guess Hawke letting Petrice walk away after she tried to start a religious war is another example of brilliance in Kirkwall, or Hawke standing idly by while Grace discusses murdering the hostage, or when she murders Thrask right in front of Hawke...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I think the templars were shown to be far more retarded, mage Hawke, Anders, Merrill, Bethany in Kirkwall showed that to be true. As for Mage / Templar issue on grander scale it will come down to one of two things, either Bioware will show bias to one side or the other via writing the story from this point on or they will give the player the deciding factor in the games. Now as we all know history is written by the victors and any such truth attempted to be buried in the past.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[Zanallen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

How hard is it to simply answer them, instead of putting the same energy in avoiding them?

I don't think he knows Gaider's thoughts, nor is he inclined or obligated to search out posts to satisfy someone else's curiosity.

[Dave of Canada]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter =(

You could google them, though some discussions predate DA2 and it would be difficult to find them all. I'll try to find a few and post them when I do.

Here's a few threads basically involving mage or people claiming the writers are anti-mage / liars / communists which Gaider responded in with the Templar point of view (not Gaider's own thoughts), though you're not getting the full picture. You'd have to read the full thread.
One, two, three, four.

Couldn't find the threads which claimed Gaider was trying to make racists and homophobes side with the Templar by making Alain black and Anders / Karl into men, though.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 août 2011 - 04:37 .