33 réponses à ce sujet

[Nimrodell]

Erm, now I'm even more confused with taint, Grey Wardens and killing first Archdemon.
I'm replaying DAO again (ofc tis like 20th playthrough) and when I met Riordan he told me (as he always does) that tis not just blood of darkspawn required for Grey Warden induction, but also small portion of Archdemon's blood. Then I met him at Eamon's house and asked him again about how Grey Wardens came to be and during that story he said that group of Anders soldiers abandoned the king, vowed to fight the Blight, went straight to Tevinter and slayed Dumat, and none of them survived, but in years after followers appeared... but as we know, one of the Grey Wardens needs to sacrifice himself or the archdemon's soul will possess darkspawn body and survive... and tis logical to have archdemon's blood after slaying Dumat, but what about them, first ones? How did they obtain the blood and if they didn't, that means that Dumat wasn't really slain... Is it a plot hole or in the light of Legacy, something that actually transpired?

I know that Riordan states that little is known on Grey Wardens, but still, something is amiss there. Corypheus is awakened and it seems very much free now. Servant of Dumat. What if Dumat was never slain?

[Fallstar]

The codex entry mentions that the first Wardens drank 'potent darkspawn blood'. Although it does say that the blood of an archdemon is needed in Origins. Perhaps the first Wardens killed a corrupted magister and drank its blood?

[Rifneno]

They killed Dumat on several occasions, I believe. But since a Gray Warden didn't do the slaying, the nearest genlock sprouted wings and started breathing eternal damnation on the would-be victors. The Gray Wardens were said to be founded almost 100 years before Dumat was finally slain.

Oh, and then some chick shows up 26 years later with all kinds of divine awesomeness. Maker's bride my fat ass...

[whykikyouwhy]

I'm not sure any of the Old Gods were slain. We "know" that the old gods are supposed to turn into archdemons when corrupted by the taint, but what if what is actually corrupted is just an aspect or avatar of the old god? A mortal vessel (assuming that old gods can be in multiple places at once, like Flemeth). So a piece of the whole is tainted, but not the majority of the whole. But perhaps, so broken, the old god is considered "dormant."

I think with regard to the first archdemon slain, it's never been said who did the killing blow. The Warden who made the Ultimate Sacrifice is not named, therefore leading to the possibility of the Dark Ritual being in place. (And Rifneno's assertion that Dumar = Andraste.)

If OGBs don't age in the same manner as standard mortals do, I wonder if Morrigan is an OGB. Hmm...gods begetting gods...

Back to Twinkies and cheese for me.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

Erm, now I'm even more confused with taint, Grey Wardens and killing first Archdemon.
I'm replaying DAO again (ofc tis like 20th playthrough) and when I met Riordan he told me (as he always does) that tis not just blood of darkspawn required for Grey Warden induction, but also small portion of Archdemon's blood. Then I met him at Eamon's house and asked him again about how Grey Wardens came to be and during that story he said that group of Anders soldiers abandoned the king, vowed to fight the Blight, went straight to Tevinter and slayed Dumat, and none of them survived, but in years after followers appeared... but as we know, one of the Grey Wardens needs to sacrifice himself or the archdemon's soul will possess darkspawn body and survive... and tis logical to have archdemon's blood after slaying Dumat, but what about them, first ones? How did they obtain the blood and if they didn't, that means that Dumat wasn't really slain... Is it a plot hole or in the light of Legacy, something that actually transpired?

I know that Riordan states that little is known on Grey Wardens, but still, something is amiss there. Corypheus is awakened and it seems very much free now. Servant of Dumat. What if Dumat was never slain?

This topic was discussed recently. Darius Vir pointed out the reasoning given by David Gaider. And here's where I responded with the link to Gaider's explanation.

As DuskWarden mentioned, what is required is "potent darkspawn blood." The requirement is actually for the corruption to immediately affect someone; if it affects slowly then one'd most likely get a ghoul instead of a Grey Warden. Archdemon blood has that potency, otherwise the blood of darkspawn can also be magically treated.

The other guess I have is when the Grey Warden order was formed, it was without the knowledge of how to defeat the Archdemon. I think they took almost 100 years to figure this one out. And, so, yes, it took the Grey Wardens a hundred years to slay Dumat, which I suppose Riorden doesn't mention.

DuskWarden wrote...

The codex entry mentions that the first Wardens drank 'potent darkspawn blood'. Although it does say that the blood of an archdemon is needed in Origins. Perhaps the first Wardens killed a corrupted magister and drank its blood?

And which codex entry is this?

Rifneno wrote...

They killed Dumat on several occasions, I believe. But since a Gray Warden didn't do the slaying, the nearest genlock sprouted wings and started breathing eternal damnation on the would-be victors. The Gray Wardens were said to be founded almost 100 years before Dumat was finally slain.

I think it unlikely that Dumat was slain more than once. Riorden also mentions that, if the corrupted soul of the Old God hops to another darkspawn, the resulting Archdemon (another dragon form) would almost become immortal. I didn't get the reasoning behind that, but that is what he believed. So, I suppose either Riorden is wrong or it never happened more than once. (EDIT 2: Riorden perhaps just referred to the power of the Archdemon becoming multiplied several times - not necessarily its becoming immortal. So perhaps they did slay Dumat more than once. Otherwise it would be very hard to explain the figuring out the "hopping" of bodies; and how the Grey Wardens eventually figured out that they could take the soul within themselves and so destroy the Old God's soul.) (EDIT 3: God! I cannot read. The immortality IS a reference to body hopping and respawning anew. So it is very much likely that Dumat was slain more than once.)

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 29 août 2011 - 08:20 .

[Nimrodell]

Ah, thank you, Michael, I remember Duncan clearly stating that the mages of Circle are preparing blood for new recruits. But then question remains - why Riordan discourages the Warden then with mention that archdemon blood is required? There's Wynne, there's Circle of Magi if Warden saved them and I didn't get the impression in Ostagar that magic treatment of darkspawn blood lasts for days or weeks... now I'm even more confused. But thank you .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, thank you, Michael, I remember Duncan clearly stating that the mages of Circle are preparing blood for new recruits. But then question remains - why Riordan discourages the Warden then with mention that archdemon blood is required? There's Wynne, there's Circle of Magi if Warden saved them and I didn't get the impression in Ostagar that magic treatment of darkspawn blood lasts for days or weeks... now I'm even more confused. But thank you .

You're most welcome.

What does Riorden say exactly though, and in what context? My own guess now is that either of these might be sufficient:
1. any darkspawn blood "enriched" with a drop of archdemon blood OR
2. any darkspawn blood magically treated for increasing potency

(Not sure if lyrium is required in either or both cases.)

It may be possible, but I suppose unlikely, that Riorden didn't know about the second one. It's been several months since I last played DAO and my memory's faded. I sometimes get these things wrong when I refer to the Wiki directly.

[Nimrodell]

Ah, he doesn't say either - he just says that beside darkspawn blood you need archdemon's too. He's not putting it like either/or - he simply states that Warden's vault was robbed and for the moment they can't do any joinings since archdemon's blood is required too. Since he went through joining with Duncan, I assume that he actually knows about those things. Maybe tis just plot hole, I don't know and yet, maybe it'll be good ground for future story since we already have Legacy.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, he doesn't say either - he just says that beside darkspawn blood you need archdemon's too. He's not putting it like either/or - he simply states that Warden's vault was robbed and for the moment they can't do any joinings since archdemon's blood is required too. Since he went through joining with Duncan, I assume that he actually knows about those things. Maybe tis just plot hole, I don't know and yet, maybe it'll be good ground for future story since we already have Legacy.

Actually, "I" was deriving that either-or from the 2 or 3 sources that explain the Joining potion. Although, I think you're right about Riorden's comments. It does appear to be an oversight. Unless, he had some ulterior motive not to let any more Grey Wardens be made - which I heavily doubt. What could have happened is all these story elements could have been at various stages of development and deployment when making the game, and one of the elements may simply have contradicted with the final "canon" version.

[Nimrodell]

To be honest, I wish it wasn't just another hole in the story. I think that that development would be actually very interesting, especially with the thing that Morrigan dropped in during Ritual explanation to Warden - when Warden asks if the child will be a darkspawn, Morrigan answers that she looks for the ancient being that once existed and not dark powers that corrupted it... That would be actually awesome development. Meaning, old gods are not what they seem - thus even giving plausibility to elven beliefs too.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty sure Morrigan was talking about Urthemial's power prior to being tainted and corrupted by the darkspawn.The Archdemon Codex eventually says that the Tevinter armies threw themselves at Dumat but he'd always return until the Grey Wardens discovered why and slew him for the last time. That implies he was killed many timest, it makes sense too because while Archdemons are formidable they aren't invincible so it's likley the Imperium's armies killed his dragon form at least once during his 200 year assault on humanity.

[dsl08002]

But it is still carrying the essence of the old god so if the darkspawn find the child another blight will begun. Or the child could be a tool to control the darkspawn and then you would get the biggest and deadliest army in the world of thedas

[Nimrodell]

dsl08002 wrote...

But it is still carrying the essence of the old god so if the darkspawn find the child another blight will begun. Or the child could be a tool to control the darkspawn and then you would get the biggest and deadliest army in the world of thedas

But how darkspawn corrupt old god in the first place? Ok, they have compulsion to seek them and then what, by mere presence, touching, spilling blood? But as I understood the Architect and the things we discovered in Awakening is that their slumber enforced by the Maker himself was prior their turning into Archdemon, and yet, darkspawn hear their call and are compelled to seek them out... So, are the slumbering old gods already corrupted or the corruption begins with darkspawn finding them? That's what I don't get, especially when I consider Morrigan's words to Warden.

I read DAWiki article, but so far I haven't find this explanation in the game itself:

In Dragon Age: Awakening, it is revealed that there is a particular relation between darkspawn and the slumbering Old Gods. The darkspawn taint is linked with the ancient dragons, all darkspawn constantly hearing the call of the Old Gods. It is presumed that as the fall of the magisters occurred—and they were transformed into the first darkspawn—the link between them and the Old Gods who had ordered them to sin against the Maker remained. Hearing their call, the darkspawn search for the Old Gods continuously. When they find one, they corrupt it and it becomes an archdemon, proceeding to command them into a horde and unleash a new Blight.

Morrigan states 'that some things are worth preserving in this world' and it seems that child with a soul of an old god won't remember who it was... she states that she'll teach it to respect from what it came from... I can see it maybe as a sort of purifying or making sort of hybrid that'll actually posses mortal point of view on what happened and what needs to be done in order to correct things. Perhaps another chance... but still, really, how is it possible that darkspawn won't sense it?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The nature and motives of the Old Gods are one of the major unanswered questions so far.

We do know that Old Gods aren't corrupted beforehand, they only turn into Archdemons when the darkspawn find and infect them with the taint. Why darkspawn are compelled to do this is not yet known.

The Chant of Light and the Codex Entry on Urthemiel and Morrigan's comments on the Dark Ritual all seem to indicate that the Old Gods do not want to become Archdemons. However, the research of the Architect clearly shows there is some connection between the darkspawn taint and the call of the Old Gods.

[Fallstar]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Erm, now I'm even more confused with taint, Grey Wardens and killing first Archdemon.
I'm replaying DAO again (ofc tis like 20th playthrough) and when I met Riordan he told me (as he always does) that tis not just blood of darkspawn required for Grey Warden induction, but also small portion of Archdemon's blood. Then I met him at Eamon's house and asked him again about how Grey Wardens came to be and during that story he said that group of Anders soldiers abandoned the king, vowed to fight the Blight, went straight to Tevinter and slayed Dumat, and none of them survived, but in years after followers appeared... but as we know, one of the Grey Wardens needs to sacrifice himself or the archdemon's soul will possess darkspawn body and survive... and tis logical to have archdemon's blood after slaying Dumat, but what about them, first ones? How did they obtain the blood and if they didn't, that means that Dumat wasn't really slain... Is it a plot hole or in the light of Legacy, something that actually transpired?

I know that Riordan states that little is known on Grey Wardens, but still, something is amiss there. Corypheus is awakened and it seems very much free now. Servant of Dumat. What if Dumat was never slain?

This topic was discussed recently. Darius Vir pointed out the reasoning given by David Gaider. And here's where I responded with the link to Gaider's explanation.

As DuskWarden mentioned, what is required is "potent darkspawn blood." The requirement is actually for the corruption to immediately affect someone; if it affects slowly then one'd most likely get a ghoul instead of a Grey Warden. Archdemon blood has that potency, otherwise the blood of darkspawn can also be magically treated.

The other guess I have is when the Grey Warden order was formed, it was without the knowledge of how to defeat the Archdemon. I think they took almost 100 years to figure this one out. And, so, yes, it took the Grey Wardens a hundred years to slay Dumat, which I suppose Riorden doesn't mention.

DuskWarden wrote...

The codex entry mentions that the first Wardens drank 'potent darkspawn blood'. Although it does say that the blood of an archdemon is needed in Origins. Perhaps the first Wardens killed a corrupted magister and drank its blood?

And which codex entry is this?

Rifneno wrote...

They killed Dumat on several occasions, I believe. But since a Gray Warden didn't do the slaying, the nearest genlock sprouted wings and started breathing eternal damnation on the would-be victors. The Gray Wardens were said to be founded almost 100 years before Dumat was finally slain.

I think it unlikely that Dumat was slain more than once. Riorden also mentions that, if the corrupted soul of the Old God hops to another darkspawn, the resulting Archdemon (another dragon form) would almost become immortal. I didn't get the reasoning behind that, but that is what he believed. So, I suppose either Riorden is wrong or it never happened more than once. (EDIT 2: Riorden perhaps just referred to the power of the Archdemon becoming multiplied several times - not necessarily its becoming immortal. So perhaps they did slay Dumat more than once. Otherwise it would be very hard to explain the figuring out the "hopping" of bodies; and how the Grey Wardens eventually figured out that they could take the soul within themselves and so destroy the Old God's soul.) (EDIT 3: God! I cannot read. The immortality IS a reference to body hopping and respawning anew. So it is very much likely that Dumat was slain more than once.)

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

The codex entry that mentions requiring 'potent darkspawn blood' is the Joining codex entry, Duncan says you need archdemon blood, as does Alistair later in the game. The thing about the magister was pure speculation.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

But how darkspawn corrupt old god in the first place? Ok, they have compulsion to seek them and then what, by mere presence, touching, spilling blood? But as I understood the Architect and the things we discovered in Awakening is that their slumber enforced by the Maker himself was prior their turning into Archdemon, and yet, darkspawn hear their call and are compelled to seek them out... So, are the slumbering old gods already corrupted or the corruption begins with darkspawn finding them? That's what I don't get, especially when I consider Morrigan's words to Warden.

I read DAWiki article, but so far I haven't find this explanation in the game itself:

In Dragon Age: Awakening, it is revealed that there is a particular relation between darkspawn and the slumbering Old Gods. The darkspawn taint is linked with the ancient dragons, all darkspawn constantly hearing the call of the Old Gods. It is presumed that as the fall of the magisters occurred—and they were transformed into the first darkspawn—the link between them and the Old Gods who had ordered them to sin against the Maker remained. Hearing their call, the darkspawn search for the Old Gods continuously. When they find one, they corrupt it and it becomes an archdemon, proceeding to command them into a horde and unleash a new Blight.

Here's what I think about the way the awakening of any Archdemon works. And some further thoughts here. My guess, to be sure, but they're simpler and less obstruse than some of the other explanations I've encoutered.

The souls may be of the Old Gods, to be sure, because of the power they possesses in taking charge of the darkspawn army, and the corruption of the soul may also be real. These don't take away anything from what I said in the links.

Morrigan states 'that some things are worth preserving in this world' and it seems that child with a soul of an old god won't remember who it was... she states that she'll teach it to respect from what it came from... I can see it maybe as a sort of purifying or making sort of hybrid that'll actually posses mortal point of view on what happened and what needs to be done in order to correct things. Perhaps another chance... but still, really, how is it possible that darkspawn won't sense it?

The explanation begins to get simpler if one looks at the Old God's call differently. If the soul of an Old God is trapped within lyrium, then it is quite possible that the "song" could be originating in the lyrium itself, and not from the soul. Look at the Architect's notes: "What happens if the Old Gods perish? Does the song die with them?" He is pondering the same thing. And I think it is a valid and rational inquiry into the matter.

The darkspawn are artificially engineered beings to seek out the song primarily I think, not necessarily the Old God's souls. The souls they find by accident, and the taking over of the horde, again is unique to the soul, not the lyrium.

Regarding Morrigan. I think you put too much trust in what she knows or says. Her source of knowledge is obscure, and it is not even certain whether she really knows anything for sure. Flemeth's words: "She is a girl who thinks she knows what is what better than I or anyone." Perhaps hinting at Morrigan's conceit. One could do the opposite mistake and consider Flemeth to be all-knowing. But the issue remains the same - we need to tread carefully with what Morrigan knows or does.

[MichaelFinnegan]

DuskWarden wrote...


The codex entry that mentions requiring 'potent darkspawn blood' is the Joining codex entry, Duncan says you need archdemon blood, as does Alistair later in the game. The thing about the magister was pure speculation.

Ser, I'm unable to find this codex entry. There doesn't seem to be one regarding the Joining itself.

EDIT: Wait, do you mean the journal entry for some in-game quest? Then it is quite possible. I'll need to confirm this by playing the game, viz. going to take awhile.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 31 août 2011 - 08:41 .

[Nimrodell]

@MichaelFinnegan: Ah, I read those posts as soon as u posted them . Still, I have problem with entire soul encased in lyrium thing 'cause of two reasons (didn't want to post there and sidetrack the discussion further and somehow, the thing I'm going to say here is going along with your theories but also it is expanding the problem itself). After getting 'The Chantry believes it to be the "Waters of the Fade" mentioned in the Canticle of Threnodies, the very stuff of creation itself, from whence the Maker fashioned the world. Then knowing that for beings from this world it is lethal in raw form (and for dwarves after longer exposure it 'causes dementia and memory loss - like with that merchant in Orzammar) and addictive in its refined form and yet Justice can carry it in its pure form being the spirit from the Fade (he states it is the most precious, beautiful thing from our plane and that lyrium in the Fade is different - not the same as mortal plane one).

But then, we have Tevinter strange magic described in Mage Origin start, Witch Hunt dlc and of course Awakening. We encounter souls trapped in the stone as statues - Eleni Zinovia and those two Avvar warriors in Wending Woods. Eleni doesn't describe how she got turned into stone (the very process), but Avvarian warrior does, saying that Tevinter Mage struck them with 'liquid fire' - meaning that beside dwarves (Anvil of the Void), humans also possess knowledge on how to do it - as Shayle and Wynne confirm with their assumptions on Minrathous Circle, and there's Fade part, where we encounter golems in Mage Asunder.

Now, if Justice's observation on 'material world' lyrium nature is correct one, it may hint that the lyrium itself is altered somehow, maybe corrupted or showing different nature here, echoing its true nature that is in the Fade thus being in conflict with beings from material world... Yes, Justice can hear its song clearly but also Justice himself is becoming altered 'cause of presence in material world (and that's before Anders). Now, why this long, chaotic explanation? What if the Fade and its 'waters' are original, unspoiled design - like with Plato and his world of ideas - and mortal plane is actually spoiled or altered copy of original design. I read so many times Maker's First Children codex entry and 'the soul' part there is actually something that makes me miffed about it. Senior Enchanter Bader states that soul is 'spark of divine', but if it is so - how can old gods have 'soul' to be trapped inside lyrium then? That's just too much supposition for me there - either current knowledge on souls in DA world is false one, or old gods are actually younger than the Maker himself... or they are actually opposite faction, like in elven pantheon, like titans and gods in Greek pantheon. And tis too unclear then - if the lyrium is 'waters of Fade', stuff of creation itself, and if it compels darkspawn with its song to taint slumbering gods, then the creation itself is marred, flawed - 'cause regular mortals, living ones can't hear the song and darkspawn can - tis compulsion for them (as Architect states) - but then we have Corypheus...

Corypheus is imprisoned in lyrium prison as we know, but we also know that Carta dwarves there, Grey Wardens, Anders actually hear Corypheus himself, not just the song. They actually hear him. So, I'm not sure it's lyrium song - lyrium may be sort of amplifier since it stretches like veins through earth, but I really think you need someone's thoughts, cries even, in order to be compelled to follow - and I'm serious on this one since lyrium is both in mortal plane and Fade plane. It echoes, but I think that thought behind that echo is required in order to be heard as compulsion. And as we seen so far, souls can be entrapped in stone form, but they retain their own ability to speak and think and even go mad 'cause of stone form.

And no, I don't trust Morrigan, I was merely repeating her thoughts on that matter, but I'm not saying tis true, that's why I'm questioning it . So far, I didn't take any source for granted. I'm grateful for your taking time to read my posts , just always remember that most of sources I use, I'm not taking them for granted - just adding pieces of a puzzle . Oh dear god, I wrote yet another longer, confusing post lol.

[Nimrodell]

Ah damn it, it just hit as addition - in order to control golems, one needs to fashion the control rod - Shayle got freed and Caridin was never under control - he retained his mind. So, not just those statues, we have even golems with free thought and mind - imprisoned souls. Though, for all those imprisonments blood magic was required, even in Corypheus case. And if it's true that blood magic was brought to mortals by Dumat, then tis hardly that old gods were imprisoned in that fashion by Maker himself... and yet, Morrigan and Merril do not treat blood magic as something inherently evil. Bah... The point is, to simplify all my blabbering, so far I've seen imprisoned souls with a help of lyrium, and also blood magic - but without something further to control them, they retain their ability to think or in Corypheus case to dream, roam the Fade.

[Fallstar]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...


The codex entry that mentions requiring 'potent darkspawn blood' is the Joining codex entry, Duncan says you need archdemon blood, as does Alistair later in the game. The thing about the magister was pure speculation.

Ser, I'm unable to find this codex entry. There doesn't seem to be one regarding the Joining itself.

EDIT: Wait, do you mean the journal entry for some in-game quest? Then it is quite possible. I'll need to confirm this by playing the game, viz. going to take awhile.

My apologies. Turns out that quote is actually from the wiki: http://dragonage.wik...ens#The_Joining

Now I've just got to find where the wiki people got it from.

[Last Darkness]

Dont know if its been mentioned yet but according to some apocryphal parts of the Lore they never knew what Archdemon was the first one actualy. They assumed and labeled it Dumat, but the recent info from Legacy/Corphyues makes one wonder.

But its pretty sound guess that the Grey Wardens how they are now are quite differant to how they were during the first blight. I have no idea where you would think this? or do you think lets say people had their current rights and innovations a thousand years ago that are unchanged today is basicaly what your saying.
dont mean to be rude but it seems rather silly to me.

[Nimrodell]

Last Darkness wrote...

But its pretty sound guess that the Grey Wardens how they are now are quite differant to how they were during the first blight. I have no idea where you would think this? or do you think lets say people had their current rights and innovations a thousand years ago that are unchanged today is basicaly what your saying.
dont mean to be rude but it seems rather silly to me.

I don't know if you're addressing me or someone else and not sure I quite follow what you're saying in this passage. But the thing you said in blue marked part of your text has nothing to do with what's been said and written so far. To be honest, if I understood you correctly, I really don't understand how you even managed to get such interpretation. I don't see rudeness in your comment, but also, I don't see any connection with previous posts. And you're right, that what you think that has been said, sounds rather silly.

[Last Darkness]

Nimrodell wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

But its pretty sound guess that the Grey Wardens how they are now are quite differant to how they were during the first blight. I have no idea where you would think this? or do you think lets say people had their current rights and innovations a thousand years ago that are unchanged today is basicaly what your saying.
dont mean to be rude but it seems rather silly to me.

I don't know if you're addressing me or someone else and not sure I quite follow what you're saying in this passage. But the thing you said in blue marked part of your text has nothing to do with what's been said and written so far. To be honest, if I understood you correctly, I really don't understand how you even managed to get such interpretation. I don't see rudeness in your comment, but also, I don't see any connection with previous posts. And you're right, that what you think that has been said, sounds rather silly.

To clarify reading this thread and many others like it. Theres a large amount of people who belive the Grey Wardens existed as they are now during the first Blight. I was attempting to make a general analogy to something most people could relate to.  Though I do know my fair share of people who think Anicient Romans had hydro-electric plants. Thats what a Aquduct is right of course. Lol  

Though I think the first part of my statement is more worthy of discussion.
They still dont actualy know what Old God the first Archdemon was.

[Nimrodell]

Yup and I agree with u on that one - but there lies a problem too - Grey Wardens did change, but the basic thing should be the same. After Gaider's explanation on very potent darkspawn blood and killing Archdemon is making things more clear - meaning, even tho Riordan is saying that Archdemon's blood is required also... but tis same as baking bread - basically you need flour, yeast, water a bit of salt and then you can make variations if you want different kinds of pastries ... but in the essence, those are components you need. But killing the Archdemon is not something anyone would do on whim - and still there's a change now, its blood is required too. Why would it change? And is that simple plot hole? Or was 'potent darkspawn blood' explanation convenient retcon - preparation ground for explanations that are yet to come? So no , it is clear that many things have changed, but this change or lets say, addition to what we've seen already, is still without an explanation. Bottom line is - I didn't assume that nothing has changed, it's quite the opposite.

[MichaelFinnegan]

[quote]Nimrodell wrote...

@MichaelFinnegan: Ah, I read those posts as soon as u posted them . Still, I have problem with entire soul encased in lyrium thing 'cause of two reasons[/quote]
Ok.

[quote]
(didn't want to post there and sidetrack the discussion further[/quote]
Oh, I generally don't worry about leading discussion astray. At such an early stage in DA, it appears the more it gets sidetracked the more POVs get discussed, without getting held back by one or two views. Anyway, that is just me.

[quote]
and somehow, the thing I'm going to say here is going along with your theories but also it is expanding the problem itself). After getting 'The Chantry believes it to be the "Waters of the Fade" mentioned in the Canticle of Threnodies, the very stuff of creation itself, from whence the Maker fashioned the world.[/quote]
But, really, how does one understand that quote - the so-called Chantry's belief? I think the "waters" is kind of a reference to the creation on our own world - the earliest life forms were supposed to have been born in water, where the climate was supposedly milder. But, in the game, it's still a belief only, and only that of the Chantry - that that world, of which Thedas is a part, is formed of the matter from the Fade.

[quote]
Then knowing that for beings from this world it is lethal in raw form (and for dwarves after longer exposure it 'causes dementia and memory loss - like with that merchant in Orzammar) and addictive in its refined form[/quote]
I had once conceptualized lyrium as the "field-generator," powering and holding the Veil in place. Anyway, wild speculation aside, what you say is true.

[quote]
and yet Justice can carry it in its pure form being the spirit from the Fade (he states it is the most precious, beautiful thing from our plane and that lyrium in the Fade is different - not the same as mortal plane one).[/quote]
Just a little while ago I found out Justice's quote on the subject. He doesn't say that lyrium exists in the Fade. He merely says that the version of lyrium that mortals dream of in the Fade, which spirits can sense, doesn't sing. Meaning just like anything in the mortal world, the spirits can sense it through dreams - lyrium is no different, apparently. And it's simple to come to the conclusion that Justice didn't hear the "dream version" of lyrium sing because those who are capable of going to the Fade while dreaming, meaning anyone other than dwarves, ghouls, darkspawn, etc. don't hear lyrium sing in the mortal world. But it was interesting for me to learn that spirits in the mortal world (like Justice) can hear pure lyrim sing - and it kind of evokes an ache for that singing, as he describes it. Just something else/more to think about.

[quote]
But then, we have Tevinter strange magic described in Mage Origin start, Witch Hunt dlc and of course Awakening. We encounter souls trapped in the stone as statues - Eleni Zinovia and those two Avvar warriors in Wending Woods. Eleni doesn't describe how she got turned into stone (the very process), but Avvarian warrior does, saying that Tevinter Mage struck them with 'liquid fire' - meaning that beside dwarves (Anvil of the Void), humans also possess knowledge on how to do it - as Shayle and Wynne confirm with their assumptions on Minrathous Circle, and there's Fade part, where we encounter golems in Mage Asunder.[/quote]
Yes, I quite agree. There is evidence among all races, apparently, of binding spirits to something or the other - stones, rocks (golems - bound by dwarves), flesh (harvester - bound by dwarf and magister), idols (the demon that Marethari freed - bound by either elves or magisters) using lyrium, some form of magic or the other. And the Juggernaught armor set you mentioned the other day - binding spirits/demons to parts of armor by a magister again.

And the golem in the Fade, that part is probably taken out of someone's dream - apparently read and formed by some demon. I forgot which one it was.

[quote]
Now, if Justice's observation on 'material world' lyrium nature is correct one, it may hint that the lyrium itself is altered somehow, maybe corrupted or showing different nature here, echoing its true nature that is in the Fade thus being in conflict with beings from material world...[/quote]
You're assuming here, ser, that lyrium exists also in the Fade. All that Justice says is that spirits sense it just as they sense any other material object, via dreams of mortals. All the lyrium there is - whether pure or corrupted - exist right here, in the mortal world. What Justice craves for is the song from the "actual" lyrium in the mortal realm.

[quote]
Yes, Justice can hear its song clearly but also Justice himself is becoming altered 'cause of presence in material world (and that's before Anders). Now, why this long, chaotic explanation? What if the Fade and its 'waters' are original, unspoiled design - like with Plato and his world of ideas - and mortal plane is actually spoiled or altered copy of original design.[/quote]
I do not know what that "ether" stuff is, which the Fade is apparently made of. But, as of yet, there is no evidence that it is some form of lyrium. The Chantry believes lyrium to be the waters of the Fade - but that is another matter.

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I read so many times Maker's First Children codex entry and 'the soul' part there is actually something that makes me miffed about it. Senior Enchanter Bader states that soul is 'spark of divine', but if it is so - how can old gods have 'soul' to be trapped inside lyrium then?[/quote]
Wait. The "Old Gods" are not the same as the Maker's First Children, at least as the Chantry preaches such things. They were not of the Creator's plan, but outside of it. It is a confusing concept, but one has to look at the evolution of the belief systems to understand this. Which Gaider has helpfully elaborated upon. Particularly, let me quote this:
"The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic.According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent."

Whether the Old Gods had souls, or even what they are, or not is not talked of by the Chantry - all the Chantry says is what they did. So relying on Senior Enchanter Bader's words is not the right counsel here, at least for what you seek.

[quote]
That's just too much supposition for me there - either current knowledge on souls in DA world is false one, or old gods are actually younger than the Maker himself... or they are actually opposite faction, like in elven pantheon, like titans and gods in Greek pantheon. And tis too unclear then - if the lyrium is 'waters of Fade', stuff of creation itself, and if it compels darkspawn with its song to taint slumbering gods, then the creation itself is marred, flawed - 'cause regular mortals, living ones can't hear the song and darkspawn can - tis compulsion for them (as Architect states) - but then we have Corypheus...[/quote]
I think you're thinking right here. It is not that the concept of "soul" is set in stone. At least going purely by Chantry's beliefs on the Old Gods - who just regard them as false gods or whatever you might wish to call them. That Archdemons supposedly have souls that can hop to darkspawn is rather telling - one way or the other, depending on whether you personally believe Old Gods to/should have or not to have souls.

I firmly believe darkspawn have been engineered to hear the song, and be compelled to seek it out. It kind of explains the Architect's fears - what if I kill all the Old Gods somehow and still the darkspawn keep hearing the song? What do I do then? That's how I read it.

[quote]
Corypheus is imprisoned in lyrium prison as we know, but we also know that Carta dwarves there, Grey Wardens, Anders actually hear Corypheus himself, not just the song. They actually hear him. So, I'm not sure it's lyrium song - lyrium may be sort of amplifier since it stretches like veins through earth, but I really think you need someone's thoughts, cries even, in order to be compelled to follow - and I'm serious on this one since lyrium is both in mortal plane and Fade plane. It echoes, but I think that thought behind that echo is required in order to be heard as compulsion. And as we seen so far, souls can be entrapped in stone form, but they retain their own ability to speak and think and even go mad 'cause of stone form.[/quote]
From what I've seen thus far, I think of it this way: (pure?) lyrium sings; and lyrium can trap souls, spirits, whatever. These are two different things, and as far as I can understand it, there is no strict relation between them. The only way apparently to make sense out of it is by thinking that the souls/spirits that lyrium traps can cry out to those who can hear it (Grey Wardens and dwarves - Anders is also a Grey Warden). There is no evidence to suggest that lyrium amplifies something- all the evidence points to pure lyrium singing and binding spirits; whether that binding requires some magic/technique or not is a different matter.

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And no, I don't trust Morrigan, I was merely repeating her thoughts on that matter, but I'm not saying tis true, that's why I'm questioning it . So far, I didn't take any source for granted. I'm grateful for your taking time to read my posts , just always remember that most of sources I use, I'm not taking them for granted - just adding pieces of a puzzle .[/quote]
Ok, then. I just thought I should mention it because it is easy to fall for Morrigan's words. I think my Warden would fall for her and follow her to the depths of hell itself. But that's just my Warden.

[quote]
Oh dear god, I wrote yet another longer, confusing post lol. [/quote]
You and me both. Somehow I can't seem to keep posts short.

EDIT: One misplaced quote and that ever-present formatting issue.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 31 août 2011 - 04:26 .