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[Last Darkness]

Nimrodell wrote...

Yup and I agree with u on that one - but there lies a problem too - Grey Wardens did change, but the basic thing should be the same. After Gaider's explanation on very potent darkspawn blood and killing Archdemon is making things more clear - meaning, even tho Riordan is saying that Archdemon's blood is required also... but tis same as baking bread - basically you need flour, yeast, water a bit of salt and then you can make variations if you want different kinds of pastries ... but in the essence, those are components you need. But killing the Archdemon is not something anyone would do on whim - and still there's a change now, its blood is required too. Why would it change? And is that simple plot hole? Or was 'potent darkspawn blood' explanation convenient retcon - preparation ground for explanations that are yet to come? So no , it is clear that many things have changed, but this change or lets say, addition to what we've seen already, is still without an explanation. Bottom line is - I didn't assume that nothing has changed, it's quite the opposite.

I think its not exactly a retcon, more of a practicaly.
You need a source of the taint to subject yourself too, of course the stronger the better. Until they had a little Archdemon blood to work with the oldest and strongest darkspawn blood must have been used.

Think of it like baking a cake. The better ingredients you use the better the end result is.

As noted as well, it took a long time to figure out methods to even kill one so the first Grey Wardens probably didnt even do the joining Ritual or anything and then as time progressed this method was discovered.

I think the Old God baby ritual is likly a result of one of the likly many researches into ways to defeat a Archdemon.
Since this cleanses the Old Gods Spirit/Soul of Taint to reborn anew the question of course is who would develope this in such a Pro-chantry world as even cleansed the Tevinter Old Gods are Anethema to the Chantry.

My personal theory, is more based on how I would do it. I think Dumat or Fen'harel are playing everybody aginst each other. I think the Chantrys "The Maker" is either Dumat or Fen'Harel, betraying and tricking the other gods to seise power for themselves. Its all a big Con job. Which seems more plausable with what happens in Legacy about Dumat tricking the Tevinter Magisters into going to the Black city and how it was already dark and tainted when they got there.

[MichaelFinnegan]

DuskWarden wrote...

My apologies. Turns out that quote is actually from the wiki: http://dragonage.wik...ens#The_Joining

No issues, mate.

Now I've just got to find where the wiki people got it from.

They got it from Gaider.

[Nimrodell]

@MichaelFinnegan

Just a little while ago I found out Justice's quote on the subject. He doesn't say that lyrium exists in the Fade. He merely says that the version of lyrium that mortals dream of in the Fade, which spirits can sense, doesn't sing. Meaning just like anything in the mortal world, the spirits can sense it through dreams - lyrium is no different, apparently. And it's simple to come to the conclusion that Justice didn't hear the "dream version" of lyrium sing because those who are capable of going to the Fade while dreaming, meaning anyone other than dwarves, ghouls, darkspawn, etc. don't hear lyrium sing in the mortal world. But it was interesting for me to learn that spirits in the mortal world (like Justice) can hear pure lyrim sing - and it kind of evokes an ache for that singing, as he describes it. Just something else/more to think about.

Yes, you're probably right in this one - I considered lyrium we get in Fade itself through the game... wasn't considering that it could be the version spirits got from dreaming mind. And as for following Morrigan, hehe, well, I could say the same about Alistair since I'm a woman - female characters can't use that sort of a charm on me , tho as I said, Alistair or Anders are different matter . But on serious note... definitely, we need better explanation on Fade - on what is the inherent part of that realm and what is just emulated by spirits.

@Last Darkness

I think its not exactly a retcon, more of a practicaly.
You need a source of the taint to subject yourself too, of course the stronger the better. Until they had a little Archdemon blood to work with the oldest and strongest darkspawn blood must have been used.

Think of it like baking a cake. The better ingredients you use the better the end result is.

Ah tis a perfect valid explanation, and I would go for it if there weren't for Riordan and what he says in Howe's dungeon in the first place... that was the reason why I made this topic. With DA:O and Riordan's explanation on why at the moment they can't induct more Wardens - it became issue for me, that's why I was wondering whether this is a plot hole or Dumat was never actually slain. As I said - Riordan has gone through the Joining with Duncan and I suppose he knows enough about the ritual itself and how to induct a Grey Warden. If only potent darkspawn blood is required, then why he states this? What are his motives? Perhaps political scheme, yes, he's Ferelden 'born and bred' in Highever, but he's Orlesian Grey Warden... remotely it can be interpreted as Orlesian/Grey Warden scheme to make Ferelden weaker, but not likely, it would be forced, and bad plot device... considering his character development further and his desperate attepmts to sacrifice himself. That's the beef I have with this whole situation. Simplest explanation is maybe the best one - simple plot hole and a bit of retcon, but if that's not the case... both of us actually have the same theory - Dumat never died. Or Riordan doesn't know enough about the Joining itself.

[Nimrodell]

@MichaelFinnegan:
Oh w8, ah you managed to confuse me, when it comes to Fade, but I just remembered - what about The First and Mother and Children in the Fade? Definitely you should finally go through Awakening - you almost got me there - but I forgot about the Mother, her 'message' to Warden and The First being trapped in the Fade and being familiar with it... it's not that simple when it comes to Fade and darkspawn, no it's not. It's not just Corypheus as one of the Magisters being able to manipulate the Fade and send messages... tis about all freed darkspawn being able to actually step into it and even tear the Veil (as The First does it, instructed by the Mother). Play Awakening .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

Yes, you're probably right in this one - I considered lyrium we get in Fade itself through the game... wasn't considering that it could be the version spirits got from dreaming mind.

I guess we just need to remember that when in the Fade, everything is shifting and changing, and circumstances and images are being feigned from mortals' dreams. Perhaps this doesn't apply to the sprits and demons there, since they're the ones manipulating the Fade.

And as for following Morrigan, hehe, well, I could say the same about Alistair since I'm a woman - female characters can't use that sort of a charm on me , tho as I said, Alistair or Anders are different matter .

It'd be Morrigan, and to a lesser degree Merrill to me.

But on serious note... definitely, we need better explanation on Fade - on what is the inherent part of that realm and what is just emulated by spirits.

I recently commented somewhere that the particular thing I'm having difficulty with is actually the Fade. It is kind of always slipping through my grasp. Perhaps we can look to what the developers have said about it, whether by intention or otherwise. For instance, the other day, this was said. And I pondered about it here. Nothing great, but it is something. Perhaps.

Oh w8, ah you managed to confuse me, when it comes to Fade,

I did?

but I just remembered - what about The First and Mother and Children in the Fade? Definitely you should finally go through Awakening - you almost got me there -

I try to be careful to indicate what I think and to let someone know what I know about. For instance, I did anticipate what you're telling me, here. It's buried in a wall of text, so let me restate the part I meant:
"We however have an example of creatures that lack free will in DA setting. And these are actually the darkspawn. These are soulless beings who are compelled to act the way they do, and they have no control over it. They utterly lack free will; they are programmed beings that go about their lives. And the corruption/taint is what directs them, the song, and ultimately the Archdemon gives them direction. It is nothing inherent within them that allows for them to decide anything. Which is why I think what was introduced in Awakening is somewhat crucial to understanding them - it is the "sentience" or "consciousness" or "soul" (re?)introduced (a-la Matrix) that changes them; that gives them reason to exist beyond their programming - to think, to choose, to act for themselves."

I've held the thought that awakened darkspawn ought to be different from the regular, run-of-the-mill variety - although I have no understanding what difference that might entail; I mean, questions such as whether or not they still carry the taint is outside my grasp. So necessarily what I talked about earlier was the DAO variety of darkspawn, not the awakened ones, which I believe you're referring to now.

The issue actually is I'm working within the limitations of what I know. And you ought to know more, having played Awakening and perhaps the other DLCs. So, I ought to concede the argument, but by doing that I might end up falling into some traps like interpretations about things - like the Justice case we discussed. In a nutshell I'm agreeing with you - I should play Awakening.

but I forgot about the Mother, her 'message' to Warden and The First being trapped in the Fade and being familiar with it... it's not that simple when it comes to Fade and darkspawn, no it's not. It's not just Corypheus as one of the Magisters being able to manipulate the Fade and send messages... tis about all freed darkspawn being able to actually step into it and even tear the Veil (as The First does it, instructed by the Mother). Play Awakening .

I have very little understanding of the above, but let me say one thing. I did not think of Corypheus as manipulating the Fade to send messages. Although, yes, I see where you might be drawing that theory from. Maybe Corypheus was a dreamer and thus was able to manipulate others' minds via the Fade - although I do not know why he was not able to send messages to everyone; but we do not know for certain if a somniari is what Corypheus was.

I really am late for someting now. Gotta go.

EDIT: The formatting edit, as usual. Maybe I should simply change the security settings of my browser.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 31 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[Nimrodell]

@MichaelFinnegan:

Just for you, I replayed the Blackmarsh part now, in order to get full Justice dialogues again (bah, I'm getting old since I forgot this part - don't like it lol) - and yes, Justice confirmed the thing about 'mortal' lyrium and Fade lyrium - he clearly stated, the version that mortals are dreaming about... but yet again, he confirmed one more very important thing - spirits and demons actually don't know a squat about those two planes of existence or how the world works - for them, Maker can but also might not exist (like with ser Otto quest where rage demon is actually very offensive about the Maker and yet, he manifests).
But, Mother and the First are different... and The Lost doesn't even know about Grey Wardens... ah just play The Awakening (I'll tell you one lil secret, you don't know the horror I had to pass in order to get all DLCs but tis was worth it, don't hesitate, just play it - you are not person of simple 'pew pew' and then bragging about it - you know the story, and tis only right for you to go through it all - and honestly, I think you'll enjoy it... Justice, oh, he'll touch your soul, then you'll regret for seeing him in DA2 and understanding what happened to him, his voice acting, and all... just too tragic in DA2... he is pure example of catarsis as Aristotle described it in his Poetics. I still play Awakening just 'cause of Justice after DA2, wish, I just wish there can be done something for him.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

@MichaelFinnegan:

Just for you, I replayed the Blackmarsh part now, in order to get full Justice dialogues again (bah, I'm getting old since I forgot this part - don't like it lol) - and yes, Justice confirmed the thing about 'mortal' lyrium and Fade lyrium - he clearly stated, the version that mortals are dreaming about...

Oh, didn't realize. I'd have given a link to you. My recent discovery.

but yet again, he confirmed one more very important thing - spirits and demons actually don't know a squat about those two planes of existence or how the world works - for them, Maker can but also might not exist (like with ser Otto quest where rage demon is actually very offensive about the Maker and yet, he manifests).

The spirits not knowing has made me pause and think before. If these spirits were all the same ones that have exised since eternity or their creation (whichever came first ), and if they were all indeed cast out of the Golden City, as the Chant would have us believe, then why is it that they don't remember it? And if these are not the original ones, then where did they come from and what happend to those who were cast out? And of course one could question the Maker's story itself.

But, Mother and the First are different... and The Lost doesn't even know about Grey Wardens...

Just one quick observation. We have all sort of things, if we broaden our perspective. We have the darkspawn, then we have the Grey Wardens to combat them, then the awakened darkspawn - who seek freedom from compulsion, and some of those awakened darkspawn who want to go back - who want that compulsion back, all to hear the song again.

It just shows, I guess, how over time things morph - and how contrary to some original or intermediate intentions, things evolve and change, in ways unexpected. And isn't this what the Maker himself supposedly visualized or even wanted? So in a way things have worked out precisely according to plan...

ah just play The Awakening (I'll tell you one lil secret, you don't know the horror I had to pass in order to get all DLCs but tis was worth it, don't hesitate, just play it -

The one DLC I've played is Witch Hunt and that too because of Morrigan. You see - my Warden had to follow her to the depths of hell...

The only reason I haven't played the other DLCs (except Stone Prisoner and Soldier's Peak - which are somewhat tied into the DAO story) is because the original cast of characters whom I absolutely loved - Morrigan, Alistair, Leliana, and others - were not present in them. It never occured to me that I might like those DLCs for the other cast of characters and for the stories by themselves. It was a mental error, I suppose.

you are not person of simple 'pew pew' and then bragging about it - you know the story, and tis only right for you to go through it all

Here's my very first debate with someone on DA story (which I only did because I was tired of seeing all those other hate threads at that time), on the general "non spoiler" forums. This one is full of spoilers but, because of all the hatred in the other threads a little time after the launch of DA2, the moderators perhaps decided to ignore something relatively harmless like a "spoiler rich" debate - by contrast. I hadn't enjoyed anything else like it till then. It was absolutely refreshing to discover that I loved to debate story, and loved the story in general.

On a side note, here's where I for the first time linked the two "songs,", and here I am roughly 3-4 months later doing the same thing. Funny how that worked.

- and honestly, I think you'll enjoy it...

Yes, Vigil's Keep here I come!

Justice, oh, he'll touch your soul,

His voice was enough to do that in that YouTube video I saw.

then you'll regret for seeing him in DA2 and understanding what happened to him, his voice acting, and all... just too tragic in DA2... he is pure example of catarsis as Aristotle described it in his Poetics. I still play Awakening just 'cause of Justice after DA2, wish, I just wish there can be done something for him.

But whose catharsis was it, though? It appears to me that Anders corrupted Justice - into vengeance, from what Anders says at the end in DA2. I let Anders go in the end, though - so perhaps Justice can still find his peace. (NOTE: Not sure exactly what you mean, though, since I haven't read Poetics.)

EDIT: One misplaced quote...

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:44 .

[Nimrodell]

Catharsis as Aristotle used that term is something like 'cleansing or purifying of emotions'. But you don't need to follow that link, I'll explain it simpler - as I usually explain it to my students (not that I'm teaching here, just saving time). Tis something you experience while reading or watching or listening tragic story - when you're so moved by tragedy, so deeply touched and you can feel the essence of your emotions, they are finally free, not repressed anymore. Catharsis happens to characters themselves but also to anyone who's reading or watching that particular piece.
Catharsis is inspiring often and it makes people wanting to be better, to reach those ideals. If you ever did 'Ultimate Sacrifice' as a true hero Warden - the feeling you had during that scene of dying with the Archdemon can be catharsis. So it was the case of my catharsis while I was watching and following Justice .
I always leave Anders alive - I don't believe in executions in real life and that's for selfish reasons, not 'cause I'm better person . But with Anders, I leave him and ask him to join me 'cause I didn't forget all good he did for all those years, he saved much more than he killed... and I know what happened to him anyway, both to him and to Justice - 'cause in DA, we are friends . As I always say to Ella - he's just tormented man, not a demon - and I might add, not a villain.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

Catharsis as Aristotle used that term is something like 'cleansing or purifying of emotions'. But you don't need to follow that link, I'll explain it simpler - as I usually explain it to my students (not that I'm teaching here, just saving time). Tis something you experience while reading or watching or listening tragic story - when you're so moved by tragedy, so deeply touched and you can feel the essence of your emotions, they are finally free, not repressed anymore. Catharsis happens to characters themselves but also to anyone who's reading or watching that particular piece.
Catharsis is inspiring often and it makes people wanting to be better, to reach those ideals. If you ever did 'Ultimate Sacrifice' as a true hero Warden - the feeling you had during that scene of dying with the Archdemon can be catharsis. So it was the case of my catharsis while I was watching and following Justice .

Ah, ok. Thanks for elaborating.

I always leave Anders alive - I don't believe in executions in real life and that's for selfish reasons, not 'cause I'm better person . But with Anders, I leave him and ask him to join me 'cause I didn't forget all good he did for all those years, he saved much more than he killed... and I know what happened to him anyway, both to him and to Justice - 'cause in DA, we are friends . As I always say to Ella - he's just tormented man, not a demon - and I might add, not a villain.

If I remember correctly, that is also what I said to Ella. What Anders does at the end is a somewhat conflicting situation for me, though. By taking matters into his own hands - and, by matters, I mean that which doesn't only concern him, but also a broader faction of mages throughout Thedas - he wasn't entirely in the right. Revolutions are born this way, I suppose, but I somewhat get the feeling that it could have been done better - for the lack of a better word. It is like somewhat lowering of one's morals - and setting an example not just for those who sympathize but also those who stand as enemies. I debated this with someone on this forum a while back - it was a good debate.

Anyway, I released him thinking that deciding his fate wasn't up to me. It wasn't I alone who was affected. And, yes, having become friends with him at that point also had something to do with it - I'd be lying if I said it didn't.