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[mr_afk]

For all you role-players and those who believe that something isn't really dead unless you've stabbed it with some good sharp steel, here's an idea I've been working on.

Videos
Prime Suspect
Gauntlet
Xebenkeck
Varnell


Concept
The general idea behind a fully melee party is to firstly avoid friendly fire and to retain high dps and survivability (because where's the fun otherwise?)
All-melee parties have the advantage of fighting as a unit - they will stay pretty close together, focus firing damage and protecting your weaker units naturally.

The combination of two warriors and two rogues works well for this.
Warrior CCCs and talents cause friendly-fire, making disorient CCCs less ideal - Thus the emphasis is for a DW hawke and isabela to take advantage of the staggers floating around to deal plenty of damage and spike damage where necessary. 

There isn't much need for a 'tank' with two warriors splitting the threat between them. This and the nature of their team-work style fighting means that your companions can be specced almost 100% into damage.


Specific Principles
The key ability this setup uses is lacerate. A relatively overpowered ability, this sustain doubles any damage against staggered enemies. This means that any spike damage will deal twice as much.
This allows both Hawke and Isabela to become absolutely damage beasts.
The spike abilities to consider are explosive strike (deals extra 4x damage on top of lacerate on staggers), twin fangs, vendetta (deals 3x damage on top of lacerate on staggers) and/or assassinate. 


In order for this to work you need free flowing staggers. This can come from shield bashes and pommel strikes which give guaranteed staggers, cleave, sunder (and tremor) which are a little more hit and miss.
As sunder is currently bugged I avoided it, but with fenris's high critical chance sunder could be quite useful.


The second idea is to use your warriors for buffing. I may work on an alternate setup for non-nightmare difficulties (i.e. no friendly fire) but when friendly fire is in the equation there isn't really much for the warrior to do but autoattack and stagger. So using their rallies to buff your party is quite useful.
I used Fenris for a rallied Might and Aveline for a rallied Control, Battle Synergy and Bodyguard (for Isabela).
Might gives +10% damage and +25% critical damage (a lot) while Aveline helps out Fenris and Isabela pump out criticals more often. Battle Synergy and Bodyguard make the team really durable, even with no pumped con (besides ~6 points into Aveline).

Getting them to self-buff is also useful- Cleave and sustains such as Bravery will help keep your warriors contributing heavy dps (although no spike damage).


The third idea is to keep your party mostly together. Your warriors benefit greatly from having clustered enemies as they can hit more enemies at once (as well as helping boost damage via Bravery should you have it on).
Additionally, Isabela can dish out the hurt with all hands on deck. Both Isabela and hawke also can sneakily get blindside bonuses while enemies futily attack the two warriors.

Staying together also serves to bring enemies to you. One of the disadvantages of melee companions is that they have to spend time in transit to attack an enemy. By keeping your party together enemies are forced to come to you, reducing any loss in damage potential.


Because sometimes a fight will call for some moving around it is somewhat beneficial for your team to be able to split in two. This is done through tactics, where Fenris is paired to Isabela and Aveline to Hawke.
What this means is that your party doesn't always have to be one tight group while your rogues will still be protected and be fed staggers. Everyone wins!

E x a m p l e    S e t u p

Level 17 

Hawke
Attributes: (mostly dex, some cun)
17 str           7 fortitude
77 dex        103% crit chance
15 mag       8% mag resist      
35 cun        180% crit dmg
16 will         150 stam
15 con        150 hp

93 base damage  (172 dps)
100/100/90 attack

Abilities (Shadow/Duelist): Click Here
Abiltiies (Duelist/Assassin): Click Here


The optimal build will probably be the duelist/assassin. There isn't much need for threat mangement and disorients while extra spike damage and debuff abilities come in very useful.
If you want to one-shot bosses try a Rallied Might, Mark of Death and a Vendetta CCC (Lacerate).

Also note that the ideal stat distribution changes according to whether you have devious harm or not. My (unoptimised-but-close-to) duelist/assassin has 66 dex and 52 cun at level 18.


Aveline
Attributes: (mostly str, some con)
55 str           49 fortitude
10 dex        22% crit chance
10 mag       15% mag resist      
10 cun        50% crit dmg
11 will         115 stam
20 con        247 hp

46 base damage (86 dps)
100/91/76 attack

Abilities: Click Here

Tactics
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Control
3. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Shield Bash
4. Enemy: Targetrank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Pommel Stike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Any - Activate Battle Synergy
11. Enemy: Attacking Hawke - Attack
12. Enemy: Target of Hawke - Attack
13. Enemy: At least one enemy is alive - Skip tactics
14. Self: Any - Deactivate: Battle Synergy


Fenris
Attributes: (full str)
66 str           59 fortitude
11 dex        55% crit chance
11 mag       11% mag resist      
10 cun        85% crit dmg
11 will         105 stam
12 con        177 hp

68 base damage  (112 dps)
100/85/70 attack

Abilities: Click Here

Tactics
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Might
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lyrium Ghost
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher: Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target is Elite or higher - Pommel Strike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Surrounded by no enemies - Deactivate: Bravery
11. Self: Surrounded by at least four enemies - Activate Bravery
12. Self: Mana or stamina <25% - Bolster
13. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Attack
14. Enemy: Target of Isabela - Attack


Isabela
Attributes:
11 str           4 fortitude
64 dex        90% crit chance
11 mag       3% mag resist      
13 cun        82% crit dmg
12 will         135 stam
11 con        145 hp

83 base damage  (154 dps)
100/100/100 attack

Abilities: Click Here

Tactics
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Precision (change to Speed once her crit chance is high enough)
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lacerate
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Explosive Strike
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Twin Fangs
8. Enemy: Clustered with at least four enemies - All Hands on Deck
9. Enemy: STAGGERED - Attack
10. Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Rush
11. Self: surrounded by at least three enemies - Rush
12 Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
13. Self: Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
14. Fenris: Any - Goad (upgrade to Corral for archers)
15. Enemy: Attacking Fenris - Attack
16. Enemy: Target of Fenris - Attack
17. Enemy: Attacking Aveline - Attack

Modifié par mr_afk, 20 octobre 2011 - 06:40 .

[thendcomes]

Looks like a faceroll. Nice idea and execution.

[Relix28]

This is defenitelly a nice change of pace from always (face)rolling with Merrill, Anders and Varric.

It's a bummer that Sunder is bugged though. Fenris was an absolute STAGGER machine before the patch, and he would still be pretty decent, if it weren't for the stupid bug. With the buff to Lacerate, the damage output would increase significantly for rogue Hawke and Isabela.

Still, I think it would be interesting to try out an all-melee NM party. Nice to see something different for a change. Although, I think Haste/dual Haste will be sorely missed.

[mr_afk]

Thanks!

And yeah, having bugged abilities is pretty lame - although the patch also nerfed sunder (from 50% chance on crit to 20% on crit). And yeah, dual haste will be missed.

Interestingly, from what I've seen so far the all-melee party seems to receive a lot less damage than ranged setups (with the exception of forcemages).
Still trying to figure out why, but I've come out of fights with almost no damage on anyone. Seems like the enemies that get into melee range die/get interrupted too much to do anything. Anyway, I'm thinking that xebenkeck will be my next stop. Haven't killed her in a while! hahaha

edit: might try a duelist assassin for a change. don't really need threat management/disorients atm

Modifié par mr_afk, 29 août 2011 - 06:36 .

[mr_afk]

for those who like clusterf**ks here's Xebenkeck with a fully melee party hahaha

[Relix28]

If I may help with the tactics a little.

Aveline:

1. self: health <25% - use health potion
2. self: any - activate control
3. enemy: elite or higher - shield bash
4. self: surrounded by 3+ enemies - use current condition for next tactic
5. enemy: normal or higher - shield bash
6. enemy: elite or higher - use current condition for next tactic
7. enemy: STAGGERED - jump to 10
8. enemy: elite or higher - pommel strike
9. enemy: elite or higher - rally <--- jump destiation
10. ally: mana or stamina <10% - rally
11. enemy: target at short range - cleave
12. Isabela: health <90% - activate bodyguard
13. self: any - activate battle synergy
14. enemy: attacking Isabela - attack
15. self: at least one enemy is still alive: skip tactics
16. self: any - deactivate bodyguard
17. self: any - deactivate battle synergy


Fenris:

1. self: health <25% - use health potion
2. self: any - activate might
3. enemy: elite or higher - use current condition for next tactic
4. enemy: STAGGERED - jump to 7
5. enemy: elite or higher - pommel strike
6. enemy: STAGGERED - rally <--- jump destination
7. ally: mana or stamina <10% - rally
8. enemy: target at short range - cleave
9. self: surrounded by no enemies - deactivate bravery
10. self: surrounded by 3 (or 4)+ enemies: activate bravery
11. self: any - activate lyrium ghost
12. self: mana or stamina <25% - bolster
13. enemy: attacking Isabela - attack


Isabela:

1. self: health <25% - use health potion
2. self: any - activate lacerate
3. enemy: STAGGERED - use current condition for next tactic
4. enemy: elite or higher - explosive strike
5. enemy: STAGGERED - use current condition for next tactic
6. enemy: elite or higher - twin fangs
7. enemy: STAGGERED - attack
8. self: being attacked by melee - armistice
9. self: being attacked by melee - use current condition for next tactic
10. Fenris: any - goad
11. self: any - activate speed
12. enemy: attacking Fenris - attack
13. enemy: attacking Aveline - attack


Basically, this should keep Aveline and Fenris from wasting pommel strike on an already staggered elite+ enemies.
Cleave will activate once an enemy is in melee range, also preventing random wasted activations in situations where enemy is at long range for instance.
Rally will activate for extra crit damage/chance once an elite+ enemy is staggered and/or when ally's stamina is low.
Aveline will deactivate battle synergy and bodyguard everytime the fight is over, saving you a nice amount of mana.
Fenris will automatically deactivate bravery, if no enemies are around, also saving you a hefty amount of mana.
Personally, I would keep other sustains active at all times. They cosume less mana and they are more cruical than battle synergy, bravery and bodyguard.

Most of the tactics are borrowed for SuicidalBaby's tactics thread, so most of the credit should probably go to him. I just slightly modified them for what I think would work well for this particular party setup.
I hope this helps and once again props for coming up with this guide.
 

Modifié par Relix28, 30 août 2011 - 10:33 .

[mr_afk]

Nice! Thanks - tactics was never really my thing.
I'll look through it and implement it into the guide. But for now I'm going to sleep. Hmm.. I wonder how unhealthy only getting 3hrs of sleep will be.

[Tainan7509]

ohh i never though about this full melee team on NM level ouch!!

Modifié par Tainan7509, 29 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[thendcomes]

mr_afk wrote...

for those who like clusterf**ks here's Xebenkeck with a fully melee party hahaha

Aweomse

[frustratemyself]

When I first saw this thread I though 'nah you'd get torn to shreds trying that.' Good on you afk for trying something different and making it look bloody awesome. Especially that Xeb run, very nice.

[Relix28]

mr_afk wrote...

Nice! Thanks - tactics was never really my thing.
I'll look through it and implement it into the guide. But for now I'm going to sleep. Hmm.. I wonder how unhealthy only getting 3hrs of sleep will be.

No problem dude. Let me know, if there are any hiccups with companion behavior, or, if you perhaps envisioned something different for your companions, and I will try to make it work, as best as I can.

EDIT: I added an AoE Shield Bash tactic for Aveline. AoE STAGGER will proc occasionaly, and even, if it doesn't, it will still work as a minor crowd control ability. I think it's worth it, since you will still have two pommel strikes ready to go, if any elites show up. 

Modifié par Relix28, 30 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[mr_afk]

@everyone- thanks, glad you like it 


@Relix-

Hmm.. I've experimented with the tactics using some of your suggestions and it seems to be working quite nicely. The only thing that i'm having issues with is bodyguard.

So far I can't figure out a way to get that to work as intended. Setting it to trigger when Isabela's health is <90% or even using Isabela: any doesn't seem to link Isabela to it- Aveline just casts bodyguard on herself (one of the most useless ways to waste stamina haha).
I'm thinking that I'll just have to to do it manually, and probably before fights since I don't really micro that much.

Anyway, i'll post my new tactics here first for you to have a look at before moving it to the OP. I've done some adjustments that hopefully will tailor it a little more to what I'm aiming at. Tell me what you think 

Also, here's Varnell with the all-melee party:
I had thought archers would be a problem with a melee party but it seems like it isn't too bad.

edit: I'm not so sure regarding the aoe shield bash.. I don't really need crowd control and staggers are actually pretty hard to come by given the reasonably short duration and/or disappearing after CCCs. As in, after an elite gets staggered and CCC'd, if you didn't one-shot it you probably will want a follow up crowd-control+stagger. So I think that setting it to trigger on groups will be liable to waste it on critters.



Updated Tactics:

Aveline
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Control
3. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Shield Bash
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Pommel Stike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Any - Activate Battle Synergy
11. Enemy: Attacking Hawke - Attack
12. Enemy: Target of Hawke - Attack
13. Enemy: Target of Isabela - Attack
14. Enemy: At least one enemy is alive - Skip tactics
15. Self: Any - Deactivate: Battle Synergy

Fenris
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Might
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lyrium Ghost
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher: Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target is Elite or higher - Pommel Strike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Surrounded by no enemies - Deactivate: Bravery
11. Self: Surrounded by at least four enemies - Activate Bravery
12. Self: Mana or stamina <25% - Bolster
13. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Attack
14. Enemy: Target of Isabela - Attack

Isabela
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Precision
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lacerate
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Explosive Strike
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Twin Fangs
8. Enemy: Clustered with at least four enemies - All Hands on Deck
9. Enemy: STAGGERED - Attack
10. Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Rush
11. Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
12. Self: Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
13. Fenris: Any - Goad
14. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Attack
15. Enemy: Attacking Fenris - Attack

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[Relix28]

Hm, I will look into bodyguard and try to figure out the problem.

I will review your new tactics setups once you post it, and we will see, if we can optimize your melee squad of doom even more.

Btw, awesome vids. That STAGGER ---> Rally ---> Lacerate + Vendetta combo you used on Varnel and Xeb is plain nasty. hehe

[Relix28]

mr_afk wrote...

edit: I'm not so sure regarding the aoe shield bash.. I don't really need crowd control and staggers are actually pretty hard to come by given the reasonably short duration and/or disappearing after CCCs. As in, after an elite gets staggered and CCC'd, if you didn't one-shot it you probably will want a follow up crowd-control+stagger. So I think that setting it to trigger on groups will just liable to waste it on critters.



Updated Tactics:

Aveline
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Control
3. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Shield Bash
4. Enemy: Targetrank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Pommel Stike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Any - Activate Battle Synergy
11. Enemy: Attacking Hawke - Attack
12. Enemy: Target of Hawke - Attack
13. Enemy: Target of Isabela - Attack - I would scrap this one. It's better she folows Hawke's targets only, and Fenris tries to manage the same for Izzy. Less switching targets and mindless running around that way IMO.
14. Enemy: At least one enemy is alive - Skip tactics
15. Self: Any - Deactivate: Battle Synergy

-Manual activation for Bodyguard

Fenris
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Might
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lyrium Ghost
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher: Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target is Elite or higher - Pommel Strike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Surrounded by no enemies - Deactivate: Bravery
11. Self: Surrounded by at least four enemies - Activate Bravery
12. Self: Mana or stamina <25% - Bolster
13. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Attack
14. Enemy: Target of Isabela - Attack

Isabela
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Precision - I would change it to speed, once her crit chance is at 80%+
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lacerate
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Explosive Strike
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Twin Fangs
8. Enemy: Clustered with at least four enemies - All Hands on Deck
9. Enemy: STAGGERED - Attack
10. Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Rush
11. Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
12. Self: Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
13. Fenris: Any - Goad - I would suggest upgrading Goad for archers
14. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Attack - No need for this one, Armistice, Goad and Fenris should keep threat off Isabela
15. Enemy: Attacking Fenris - Attack - Blindside bonus
16. Enemy: Target of Fenris - Attack - Staying close to Fenris, double teaming and occasional Blindside bonus
17. Enemy: Attacking Aveline - Attack - Another Blindside bonus

Updated Tactics:

Aveline
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Control
3. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Shield Bash
4. Enemy: Targetrank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Pommel Stike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Any - Activate Battle Synergy
11. Enemy: Attacking Hawke - Attack
12. Enemy: Target of Hawke - Attack
13. Enemy: At least one enemy is alive - Skip tactics
14. Self: Any - Deactivate: Battle Synergy

Fenris
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Might
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lyrium Ghost
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher: Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target is Elite or higher - Pommel Strike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Surrounded by no enemies - Deactivate: Bravery
11. Self: Surrounded by at least four enemies - Activate Bravery
12. Self: Mana or stamina <25% - Bolster
13. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Attack
14. Enemy: Target of Isabela - Attack

Isabela
1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Precision (change to Speed once her crit chance is high enough)
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lacerate
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Explosive Strike
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Twin Fangs
8. Enemy: Clustered with at least four enemies - All Hands on Deck
9. Enemy: STAGGERED - Attack
10. Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Rush
11. Self: surrounded by at least three enemies - Rush
12 Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
13. Self: Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
14. Fenris: Any - Goad (upgrade to Corral for archers)
15. Enemy: Attacking Fenris - Attack
16. Enemy: Target of Fenris - Attack
17. Enemy: Attacking Aveline - Attack


Here you go. Somewhat streamlined your Attack tactics and added some suggestions. Also, added a secondary Rush tactic for some Isabela bowling time lol.
Everything else looks in order and it should be working fine.

And I agree with you on Shield Bash AoE. If you intend on perma-Staggering elites, you should definitelly ignore it then.

If you have any other ideas, let me know. 


EDIT: I will look into Bodyguard sometime today. Will post later.
EDIT #2: There is no possible way to set up Bodyguard via tactics (most likely bugged). Aveline seems to be casting it on herself, although it is impossible to do so manually. lol
Manual activation is working properly though, and I guess it will have to do.

Modifié par Relix28, 30 août 2011 - 01:45 .

[Linkforlife]

You know, I may actually try this for my first Nightmare playthrough. I have been playing on Hard since I am worried about Fenris/Carver 1 shotting party members, but thanks to your guide Mr.afk, I may be able to get around that.

I just have one question: which party member do you remove for when a companion is required for their quest(s)?

[mr_afk]

Hmm I don't know whether this will be ideal for a first nightmare playthrough...
Generally speaking using a more balanced setup with two mages will be indefinitely superior and 'fun' unless you happen to have a thing for melee parties haha
Because we're talking about the difference between dual haste, extra crowd control and CCCs. and you don't even need to sacrifice staggers if you keep a warrior in your party.

But i suppose that if you've already been there and done that (on other difficulties) it may be time to try something different, and fully melee parties are different to say the least.

I would probably switch out either Isabela or Fenris, replacing them with another dps build.
Aveline has more stagger abilities (as sunder is bugged) and will provide the best innate 'tanking' ability even if you haven't given her much constitution. Elemental weapons on elemental weaknesses allows her dps to be pretty solid.

Fenris gives pretty decent damage, minor tanking/threat management and staggers. Nothing too necessary though.
Isabela provides a decent amount of damage output in this setup, but without Fenris she may prove to be too fragile (even with Aveline's bodyguard). Also without free-flowing staggers her spike damage potential is severely limited.

If you're using Anders (in no particular order) who you might setup to be mainly primal/arcane, you could swap him with isabela to have a similar role to deal heavy dps and stagger CCCs.
Same sorta deal for merrill and bethany (although bethany will have to skip primal and go more into another tree like elemental or spirit).
The important thing that they bring is heroic aura and haste- those alone will increase your damage output but leaps and bounds. Crowd-control via petrify/crushing prison (and winter's grasp if you don't mind risking friendly fire) will also be useful in reducing the pressure on your warriors to deal stuns etc. Outside that, mages can provide decent dps, healing, and some debuffing via hexing

For your archers I would probably focus on getting their dps really high (varric's personal tree, specialist) and using them to drop fatiguing fogs etc on groups of enemies more to protect your companions than to setup disorients. Brand + threatmangement will be also useful. I would probably switch out Isabela here too. Here's an example setup for Varric (in no particular order)


Well, if you decide to give this setup a go tell me if you encounter any difficulties/hard fights. It'll give me an idea of any strategies which need to be further developed as well as an idea of which fights to record



@Relix- thanks again! I'll add it to the OP

Modifié par mr_afk, 31 août 2011 - 03:21 .

[Linkforlife]

I think the main reason I wanted to try this build is because I want to go through the game without relying on a mage, So far every playthrough I have done revolved around a mage (mostly Merrill's insane damage with CCCs).

Another concern I have is has to do with Isabela's friendship bug since she is a main party member, Would you just need to get her rivalry bonus instead?

The only fight I am really concerned with would be the Ancient Rock Wraith since how hard it hits and how low of health you have at that point in the game. Well, the ARW and the High Dragon, the HD concerns me because after the stagger CCCs, the dragon may turn towards Hawke or Isabela and kill them. Arcane Horrors could be a problem if not killed quickly, since they have that nasty melee range aoe attack, though I suppose that is what stagger + vendetta is for.

[mr_afk]

The isabela bug was fixed in one of the patches. It works even retrospectively I think.
I would prefer her friendship bonus than her rivalry one.

Theoretically speaking, with the latest item pack (which I haven't got yet) you could potentially do one of the fastest speed runs of the ARW provided it works the way i imagine.
With a spirit dagger (Bard's Honour) a DW hawke will deal one of the highest spike damages possible against the ARW and may even hit the cap. Aveline with the edge of night or that other new spirit dlc weapon will deal pretty solid damage as well (though no way near as much as a reaver hawke).
How it could work is you have a shadow hawke with disorienting criticals providing disorient CCCs for aveline while she provides staggers for you to double your spike damage (lacerate). The only potential issue is not enough spike damage abilities such that maybe forgoing Aveline's CCCs and going into duelist for vendetta could work out better. Obviously having someone like bethany along for haste, heroic aura, extra CCCs and debuffs will be better than Fenris or Isabela but you shouldn't have too many problems with a fully melee setup provided you deal enough dps.

The high dragon will be fun. Until it flies off and spits fireballs at you. Then it gets boring as none of your party members will be able to return anything back. With enough fire resistance its flaming breathes/fireballs shouldn't be too much of an issue while its basic attacks can be avoided with some fancy footwork. Your party members will probably get smacked around quite a lot though. I may give it a go tonight and see what happens.

If I can muster the motivation I'll put up an ability order for hawke and co.
Anyway, let me know how it goes. Good luck! haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 31 août 2011 - 12:21 .

[thendcomes]

How would you take the ARW down to 90%? Your melee would be knocked all over the place and take heavy damage.

[mr_afk]

You mean in the very beginning?
I'm thinking that a decoy should hold its attention while Aveline pommel strikes it (automatic stagger?) + allowing a fully loaded explosive strike CCC to top it off fast. If that's not enough a maybe I could just start with a pinning shot (disorient) + assault from Aveline. I'll need to figure out roughly the time frame it'll take such that I can work out if cooldowns will be an issue. If it takes ~40seconds or so I could just unload all my spike damage into it at the very start. But if I get close to the 20second mark (highly unlikely) I may have to conserve spike damage for later (e.g. Aveline's assault and scatter only when it's branded).

If I take Isabela along (less optimal than bethany) I can unload her spike damage + lacerate at the beginning as Aveline's staggers should recharge pretty fast. In any case, i'll give it a shot later once I get the dlc. I still need to buy some microsoft points or whatever (i'm like 100 points short) unless someone wants to buy it for me? hahaha

[Roadkill888]

You have to take Varric to the deep roads. He could bring it down to 90%.

[thendcomes]

Again I forget that I'm restricted to having certain companions in my party. On PC I take who I want! haha

With Varric it would be doable, but fastest? Maybe I'm underestimating how quickly you can take away 10% of his HP. I guess a quick decoy behind ARW would open up a large enough window for the melee.

As for double damage phase, I don't see how an Isabela/Aveline combo would out-DPS two Cold staff mages with double haste. Plus you can't really optimize health loss for Aveline to take advantage of Blood Frenzy. Overall I don't think 20 seconds is in reach by any stretch of the imagination. It would be interesting to see how it turns out though.

Modifié par thendcomes, 31 août 2011 - 03:10 .

[mr_afk]

Okay if you watch Arelex's video () you'll notice that most of the crazy damage is dealt by that assault and scatter. Although the winter's grasps and hexes help too, most of the damage isn't been done by auto-attacks.

This means that (if I can be bothered) the optimal setup for the ARW fight with the new item pack will probably be two S&S warriors (both with spirit weapons), varric (for brand and disorient), and bethany (for hexes, heroic aura and haste).

Also notice that Arelex didn't utilise a disorient CCC. Unless he hit the cap with the assault/scatter (which i'm sure he didn't) you can potentially quadruple that damage (so definitely hit the 20% cap with each hit). This also means that aveline with cleave (missing out on +100% damage from sacrificial frenzy) will still deal more damage than Arelex's hawke (assuming strength isn't too different).

Anyway, on the basis of a 20% cap and all spike damage abilities hitting it, if we only consider the spirit weapons what we potentially have with an Aveline + DW hawke setup is:
- 2 to 3 spike damage abilities (twin fangs, explosive strike, vendetta/assassinate) from hawke doubled by lacerate (=2*40%=80% or up to 120%)
- 5 hits (assault and scatter) = (5*20%=100%)

Add them together and you have more than enough spike damage to kill the ARW in record time. Also, this is only looking at the spirit weapons - we still have hawke's other dagger doing double spike damage and Varric's auto-attack damage (and god knows what the last party member is doing).

This all depends whether you can deal enough damage to hit the cap though- and that's why I'm tempted to take along bethany as the fourth companion for any speed runs I do. her +10% damage (heroic aura) and -25% enemy damage resistance (hex of torment) will be very useful.

But basically, what I'm getting at is that the emphasis shouldn't be so much on autoattacks (and thus dual haste) but on dishing out massive spike damage (since it's probably possible to spike it to death and thus get sub-20 seconds). Using a DW hawke is probably not that optimal as you need to get staggers in order for it to be completely effective, but as I may have mentioned in another thread, I don't have any pre-ARW warrior saves. Quite annoying really. I don't suppose it's possible to send xbox saves around?

Anyway, all this is pure theory until I get that item pack. So unless someone want's to buy it for me (hint hint) you'll have to wait until I can be bothered going down to the city to buy some points. haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 31 août 2011 - 04:01 .

[thendcomes]

I see. At first I thought you meant with all melee would be the fastest, but it's hard to conceive... with Bethany it could be possible. You need that haste to take him down to 90%. You'd make short work of him in the double damage phase.

Can't you buy points online? That's where I buy mine.

[mr_afk]

I don't have a credit card atm so I just buy pre-paid voucher thingys. I'll consider getting it tmr. All this talk about killing ARWs is just too exciting haha

And I think it may be possible to do the first phase really fast via pinning shot + assault. Assault should cooldown during the break. I'll probably save haste for the main part (so I can juice more damage out of Varric)