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Appreciating DA2 On a Social Level


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#1
Masako52

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Though I wish more time had been spent on DA2 to make it a stronger game in several areas, I think it's pretty brilliant as it is - and in its approach to, shall we call, "social issues", the game is is pretty daring and interesting, and in a few ways almost landmark in the video game industry.
  • Non-White primary female love interest - Isabela is dark-skinned, which may not seem like a big deal but it is (just look at the "Make Isabela white!" mod). I call her the primary female love interest just because she was the one featured in the trailers kissing Garrett Hawke. Non-White female love interests are rare in all forms of Western media, unless the man involved is also non-White. Hell, I call it variety when the love interest isn't blonde (and I say this as a blonde white girl).
  • Female guard captain/tank character - Aveline is also amazing just because she's a woman. As a female gamer, I am acutely aware of how sadly unoften women are in positions of military authority AND tank characters, while additionally being NOT sexualized. I'm not against sexy female characters in general, but it is so nice to have a mature and both physically and psychologically strong person in an authority position who just happens to be a woman. Even during her awkward romance quest in Act 2, she's bumbling and non-sexualized and maintains her traditionally masculine characteristics in "courting" one of her crew.
  • Sexually independent and strong Isabela - Isabela is also a captain, it's worth mentioning. And yeah, even if I did think her lack of pants was a bit overkill, Isabela is still a strong person who happens to enjoy sex, no strings attached. Criticism of her character is often essentially ****-shaming, but the truth is Isabela's free and independent attitude toward sex is a characteristic associated with masculinity (and men are rarely if ever shamed for enjoying sex). It's not the fact that Isabela likes having sex that is really telling to me, it's that Isabela is completely content with having sex for fun and has no desire to settle down with a singificant other. I'm not saying this attitude is good or bad, but it's nice to see female characters with that approach, when it goes against the female stereotype.
  • And with Isabela and Aveline having characteristics that are usually given to male characters, the male characters aren't particularly "macho man" either in appearance or personality. Anders is a mage and a healer (a traditionally female role in video games), Fenris - though a warrior and has no hesitation to rip out hearts, is an elf with a rather sleek and "pretty boy" appearance. Varric perhaps might look the most "manly" but is the writer and storyteller, and frankly the most classy and collected of the characters. And Sebastian? Celibate.
  • The -isms exploration - We certainly saw a lot of in-game racism in DAO, but it came back in DA2 with vigor in the case of the qunari. Racism, of course, is in reference to "fantasy races" and not skin color. It's interesting how the DA world has a whole established system of humans subjugating elves, complete with offensive slang ("knife-ears") and prejudice. In DA2, though, it takes an interesting approach in the landing of the qunari/kossith in Kirkwall. It's easy to compare Kirkwall to the West, and the qunari to unwanted immigrants who are seen as dangerous and unrelatable to the Kirkwall lifestyle. Additionally, we get to see the frustrations of the "immigrants" and how they in turn view Kirkwall as morally corrupt. On the note of immigration, it's interesting how when Hawke and the Fereldans try to come to Kirkwall, there's literally a wall stopping them, saying Kirkwall is "full"... immigrant paranoia? Hm, that sounds familiar!
  • Related to the above racism issue, the role of religion plays a role that can also be seen in a modern day equivalent. I personally loved the dynamics of the Chantry vs. the Qun, with the heat not actually being about religious philosophy as much as clergy nuking it out "just because they're wrong." For example, Mother Petrice's religious paranoia and trying to stir up crowds against the qunari is classic. And though the Dalish culture is played up less than I would have liked, Merill has some interesting comments in banter about her own religion as opposed to the Andrastian faith.
  • Mages vs. Templars is also a social conflict as opposed to a "good vs evil" or "defeat the darkness!" usual fantasy plot. Though I also think the implementation could have been stronger, it's all extremely political and you don't see that often in fantasy games. Again, relatable to modern Western society if you don't take the conflict too literally - almost Liberal vs Conservative party mayhem without any real compromise between the two. And interestingly, when the people in power - the lame duck Viscount and Grand Cleric Elthina - try not to take sides, they end up being useless and not solving anything. The issue, of course, made personal with Hawke's siblings each favoring a side. And though neither side is inherently good or bad, we see both their justifications and the atrocities they both cause.
  • This isn't exactly applicable social commentary, but I also find it interesting that the warrior!dwarf and rogue!elf dichotomy that existed probably since before Tolkien was switched around in the case of Fenris and Varric. It's not that this has never been done before, but I guess the portrayal is kind of interesting because both Varric and Fenris arguably have a disconnect from their race's original cultures - Orzammar and the Dalish.
  • A female antagonist - Meredith. Similar to Aveline, she's also in a position of military authority and non-sexualized. Generally female antagonists tend to be tight leather and huge boobs, assuming they're the lead antagonist at all and not just the sidekick to a man or beast.
  • Finally - the addition of every LI being romanceable by either gender. As a gaymer myself, I appreciated this element more than anything in DA2. Of course, DAO was cool for Leliana and Zevran's bisexuality - and they were great characters! But I was still left with the feeling that Morrigan and Alistair were the more "canon" love interests, and players who wanted to play gay Wardens were denied that, for whatever reason. The implementation is hardly difficult - take away gender barriers and tweak a few lines to be more appropriate for the other gender, and the appreciation I have for it is extraordinary. No matter what your head!canon is - all the characters are bi, or they're only bi/gay if you approach those romances, or they're just Hawke!sexual, it gives more possibilities to those to like gaming gay. And on a social level, I can tell you how rarely LGBT characters are recognized in video games, and it's not often at all. Thank you Bioware for braving the occasional obnoxious "OMG Anders hit on me and it made me uncomfortable, curse you DA2!11" gamers and hopefully setting a precedent for future romance options in video games.
Just some random thoughts... could probably make it more eloquent and coherent, but I was just trying to quickly put down into words how DA2 felt unique from other games I've played, and in a positive way. Despite any of its flaws, I think there really was a lot of thought put into the game and that's made it pretty addictive to me.

Modifié par Masako52, 29 août 2011 - 08:49 .


#2
RinpocheSchnozberry

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OP is overthinking it.

#3
Masako52

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

OP is overthinking it.


Because social conventions affecting media/literature is only something I thought up by myself, just now.

And really, if you spent any time participating on Bioware or any other video game forums, you're by default "overthinking" it, too.

#4
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Masako52 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

OP is overthinking it.


Because social conventions affecting media/literature is only something I thought up by myself, just now.

And really, if you spent any time participating on Bioware or any other video game forums, you're by default "overthinking" it, too.


Not really.  I'm here for stories about saving the world and hot chicks.  Also, mage pants.  It's a video game.

#5
thats1evildude

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All good points.

#6
Atakuma

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Modifié par Atakuma, 29 août 2011 - 09:10 .


#7
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Atakuma wrote...

I know Isabela was intended to be a strong independent type, but instead she comes across as someone with the emotional maturity of a teenager. She talks about sex constantly and even states that she has very low standards. Not to mention the fact that she is also a liar, a thief and a murderer. I don't feel like bioware deserves any props for creating a crude caricature.


There are women like that in real life.

#8
Masako52

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

OP is overthinking it.


Because social conventions affecting media/literature is only something I thought up by myself, just now.

And really, if you spent any time participating on Bioware or any other video game forums, you're by default "overthinking" it, too.


Not really.  I'm here for stories about saving the world and hot chicks.  Also, mage pants.  It's a video game.


Oh, please. If you're just here for the video games, you would just play DA2 and move on. Surprise - most gamers don't go to the forums. You only sign up here if you have something to say or are interested in what other people are saying. If you're trying to troll here and claim you're not interested, you have more time on your hands than I do. Anyway, if you want to game with the intelligence of "lol saving the world and women, haha boobs" go for it. There's more to video games than that and no reason they can't be analyzed the same as movies and books. You get what you take from it - clearly. Did you want applause...?

#9
Atakuma

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Modifié par Atakuma, 29 août 2011 - 09:10 .


#10
Reno_Tarshil

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These are all very well thought out views on the game and while I didn't see them myself at first I can agree with all of them.

#11
whykikyouwhy

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Atakuma wrote...

I know Isabela was intended to be a strong independent type, but instead she comes across as someone with the emotional maturity of a teenager. She talks about sex constantly and even states that she has very low standards. Not to mention the fact that she is also a liar, a thief and a murderer. I don't feel like bioware deserves any props for creating a crude caricature.

Did you by chance run through the full romance with her? Or max out her friendship level? By act 3, you get a more well-rounded sense of who she is. The sex talk is just part of the veneer. The low standards aren't really low at all.
As for a thief...well, Hawke and company can pilfer a lot of valuables and random loot from the barracks, the Viscount's Keep, and even the Chantry. Posted Image

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 29 août 2011 - 07:23 .


#12
thats1evildude

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Atakuma, I want you do me, the forum, the entire WORLD a favour: for the love of God, start locking the doors to your house.

If you would just put a little effort into home security, you could stop that burglar from breaking into your house each night to ****** in your corn flakes.

:P

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2011 - 07:24 .


#13
JerHopp

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Masako52 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

OP is overthinking it.


Because social conventions affecting media/literature is only something I thought up by myself, just now.

And really, if you spent any time participating on Bioware or any other video game forums, you're by default "overthinking" it, too.


Not really.  I'm here for stories about saving the world and hot chicks.  Also, mage pants.  It's a video game.


Oh, please. If you're just here for the video games, you would just play DA2 and move on. Surprise - most gamers don't go to the forums. You only sign up here if you have something to say or are interested in what other people are saying. If you're trying to troll here and claim you're not interested, you have more time on your hands than I do. Anyway, if you want to game with the intelligence of "lol saving the world and women, haha boobs" go for it. There's more to video games than that and no reason they can't be analyzed the same as movies and books. You get what you take from it - clearly. Did you want applause...?


Don't let it bother you Masako52, it was just his opinion, nothing more, and nothing less...

I think you have written a well thought out, detailed and interesting view on the different things that happened in DA2.

Kudos!B)

#14
FieryDove

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

Did you by chance run through the full romance with her? Or max out her friendship level? By act 3,


I did she didn't change much except having a person (Hawke) she could trust.

As for a thief...well, Hawke and company can pilfer a lot of valuables and random loot from the barracks, the Viscount's Keep, and even the Chantry. Posted Image


Some Hawke's might, mine don't. Random street barrels are fair game though. Posted Image

Also I think Izzy was spray painted. If you watch closely in cutscenes she is really snow white under the...garments she wears.

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Not really.  I'm here for stories about saving the world and hot chicks.  Also, mage pants.  It's a video game.


Just because your race is short-lived you don't have to be so...Posted ImagePosted Image

Modifié par FieryDove, 29 août 2011 - 07:33 .


#15
jlb524

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Masako52 wrote...
Just some random thoughts... could probably make it more eloquent and coherent, but I was just trying to quickly put down into words how DA2 felt unique from other games I've played, and in a positive way. Despite any of its flaws, I think there really was a lot of thought put into the game and that's made it pretty addictive to me.


Good post...I agree with your feelings completely.

There was a pretty interesting article that came out right after DA2 was released that touched on some of the things you've mentioned...perhaps I can find it...

Edit:  It was this one.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 août 2011 - 07:59 .


#16
SirOccam

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Great post. It's a shame that huge strengths like this get overshadowed by complaints about waves or lack of maps or whatever.

#17
filetemo

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

OP is overthinking it.


no, she is not.

I wanted a white female primary LI and a male giant armored tank. I didn't get it so it took away from my experience.By getting away of stereotypes, Bioware seduced people like her, and alienated people like me. But she and I can agree to disagree.

companions in DA2 felt like a quirky goofy band to me. She liked it.It was a conscious design choice, and we can discuss about it. OPs initial posts has much meat in it.

#18
Reno_Tarshil

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FieryDove wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Did you by chance run through the full romance with her? Or max out her friendship level? By act 3,


I did she didn't change much except having a person (Hawke) she could trust.

As for a thief...well, Hawke and company can pilfer a lot of valuables and random loot from the barracks, the Viscount's Keep, and even the Chantry. Posted Image


Some Hawke's might, mine don't. Random street barrels are fair game though. Posted Image

Also I think Izzy was spray painted. If you watch closely in cutscenes she is really snow white under the...garments she wears.


Are you suggesting Izzy uses spray tan? As for the stealing things, hey if it sparkles it's fair game.

#19
jlb524

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Atakuma wrote...
She talks about sex constantly


That's a bit of a hyperbole.

Atakuma wrote...
and even states that she has very low standards.


It seemed to me that she tried to convey the opposite...that she does have standards and hasn't slept with as many people as most think she has.

Atakuma wrote...
Not to mention the fact that she is also a liar, a thief and a murderer. I don't feel like bioware deserves any props for creating a crude caricature.


Yeah, she lies and steals (she's a pirate afterall)...I don't recall her murdering someone.  But what does that make her a crude caricature of?

#20
esper

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Great and well thought post OP. And I agree with many things in it which is why I love da2 so much. It is much more interesting than a save the world story because of the social aspect. Thedas has some realistic and very dire social conflicts that hopefully can't be solved by an acient evil swooping down and uniting all. At least that uniting fell to pieces after the blight in Fereldan.

#21
whykikyouwhy

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FieryDove wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Did you by chance run through the full romance with her? Or max out her friendship level? By act 3,


I did she didn't change much except having a person (Hawke) she could trust.

And that's the key point. Once she realizes that there is someone she can trust - someone who trusts her and doesn't ask for anything in return, she becomes more introspective. She doesn't put up the same defenses as she did when you first encounter her.

So too, her relationships with the companions become solid and quite loving. Her affection for Merrill is clear, and by Act 3, you get the sense that she has a lot of respect for Aveline, who, by face-value characteristics, would be someone in opposition to her. Yet, they are close. Those are all tell-tale to character growth.

But I already know that you don't care for her much. Posted Image

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 29 août 2011 - 07:38 .


#22
whykikyouwhy

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@OP - I neglected to comment on your post - apologies. You make some excellent points. Well done.

#23
Atakuma

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Modifié par Atakuma, 29 août 2011 - 09:10 .


#24
Masako52

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JerHopp wrote...

Don't let it bother you Masako52, it was just his opinion, nothing more, and nothing less...

I think you have written a well thought out, detailed and interesting view on the different things that happened in DA2.

Kudos!B)


Oh, thanks, though I think I may have sound more "bothered" than I was (read: not at all). I think it's obvious that, whether you approve of them or not, Bioware made some specific stereotype-breaking choices in DA2 and to ignore that on the basis of "lol videogames" is ignoring the process of creating modern and unique video games. I doubt Bioware was like "derp buttsex!" when they added the gay romances, for example, I think it's pretty clear that some thought into reaching out toward groups underrepresented in video games. So I just think the "you're overthinking it" comments in response to video game analysis are just... like, you're underthinking it if you think it's all about killing dragons and hot girls.

#25
Follow Me on Twitter

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Atakuma wrote...

I know Isabela was intended to be a strong independent type, but instead she comes across as someone with the emotional maturity of a teenager. She talks about sex constantly and even states that she has very low standards. Not to mention the fact that she is also a liar, a thief and a murderer. I don't feel like bioware deserves any props for creating a crude caricature.

 
I kind of agreed from my first playthrough but once i actually did a playthrough with her in my party she kinda grew on me. She knows how she comes off and she knows shes not "pretty" but she does not seem to mind. She also looks out for Merril like she is her younger sister and after you prove that shes actually able to have a friend in you she actually "has your back" and sticks with you throughout the rest of the game no matter the end choice.

In short shes a pretty cool character she has low standards because she feels like thats she doesn't deserve anyone better. If you listen to the banter she has with Merril when she says she wants to be just like Isabela.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 29 août 2011 - 07:44 .