212 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

Atakuma wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Did you by chance run through the full romance with her? Or max out her friendship level? By act 3, you get a more well-rounded sense of who she is.

I did and all I got from was that she is afraid of commitment because she doesn't want to get hurt, which is a cliche right out of a bad romance novel.

I don't know that avoiding committment and not wanting to get hurt is cliche. Unless a person is really into melodrama in their live, they most likely feel that fear to some degree.

I didn't find her cliche, but that's my take. I found her to the epitomy of "don't judge a book by its cover" - she has a lot of depth. A lot of what people get distracted by is the veneer, the defenses. But then, that's just my take on it.

[Masako52]

filetemo wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

OP is overthinking it.

no, she is not.

I wanted a white female primary LI and a male giant armored tank. I didn't get it so it took away from my experience.By getting away of stereotypes, Bioware seduced people like her, and alienated people like me. But she and I can agree to disagree.

companions in DA2 felt like a quirky goofy band to me. She liked it.It was a conscious design choice, and we can discuss about it. OPs initial posts has much meat in it.

Thank you for that honesty. LOL I should've disclaimed in the post that I'm aware that a lot of gamers were probably alienated by Bioware's character choices in DA2. I think that's usually the case when any group tries to produce something different - they'll get new fans and disenchant old ones.

But I do think, if you want a video game with a traditional white female LI and a male giant armored tank... you have a lot more video games to choose from than those of us who are more interested in something different. And note, it's not that I dislike video games that have white LIs (or light-skinned is maybe more accurate, in regards to Japanese games too where the LI might be "Asian" but is still white-skinned) or macho man protagonists, I only dislike that that's pretty much all there is out there.

[Atakuma]

deleted

Modifié par Atakuma, 29 août 2011 - 09:10 .

[TEWR]

she killed Hayder and his men, along with Velasco, but that was more self-defense than cold-blooded murder.

as for her talking about sex and having sex, it's not all the time, and it's really more of her defense mechanism because she doesn't want to fall in love again for fear of hurting someone.

[LiquidGrape]

Atakuma wrote...

I know Isabela was intended to be a strong independent type, but instead she comes across as someone with the emotional maturity of a teenager. She talks about sex constantly and even states that she has very low standards. Not to mention the fact that she is also a liar, a thief and a murderer. I don't feel like bioware deserves any props for creating a crude caricature.

• Merrill: You've had many lovers, haven't you?
  
• Isabela: Fewer than some think.
  
  
• Aveline: How are you so successful with men? You’re not that pretty.
• Isabela: Cast a wide enough net, and you’re bound to catch something.
• Aveline: [Laughs] At least you’re willing to admit it.
• Isabela: Trust me. I’ve heard ‘Get away from me, you pirate hag!’ more times than I would care to count.
• Aveline: Doesn’t that bother you?
• Isabela: Why should it? They don’t know me. I know me.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 29 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Atakuma wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Did you by chance run through the full romance with her? Or max out her friendship level? By act 3, you get a more well-rounded sense of who she is.

I did and all I got from was that she is afraid of commitment because she doesn't want to get hurt, which is a cliche right out of a bad romance novel.

The reason I like Isabela isn't because of the originality of the story (I didn't think any of the stories are particularly original), but because of the effectiveness of their implementation. Here's something I wrote a few months back explaining why I like her as a character.

Isabela's an adult. She's not clingy. She's not fixated. She's had some emotional trauma in the past so she keeps everyone emotionally at arm's length, but she doesn't let it continue to dominate her life. She doesn't continue to dwell on it. She just wants to have fun and be free, and her love for sailing the world is representative of that. She's essentially a complete, functional person. She likes sex, but she's totally confident in who she is and refuses to be shamed for it. She doesn't let other peoples' attitudes bother her, because (in her own words) "They don't know me. I know me." She knows what she wants, and goes after it.

Her romance with Hawke stems from her realizing that Hawke is someone who she can genuinely be with and enjoy, without having to worry so much about being hurt or hurting. Even more than that, her confession of love is tentative... she's not sure about it, and she's even scared of it a little. Those rare flashes of vulnerability combined with her ultraconfident normal demeanor are what do it for me.

You don't really get a full picture of Isabela from just her scenes with Hawke. The other aspects of Isabela really come through during her banters with Aveline and Merrill.

There's a several small details about how it works out, like how she never uses the word "love", and how she differentiates how she feels in her words, like when Merrill asks her in a banter during Act 3 if Isabela will leave. If she's romanced by Hawke, she will say that she will if she can convince a certain someone to come away with her, but if she isn't, then she'll say she'll leave as soon as she can get a ship. Hawke is the only person even worth a mention in this case, despite how close she is with Merrill and Varric. She won't mention Hawke by name, but she's got a banter with Merrill where she says that she's just happy. It's subtle, but it's there if you look for it. That's what got me interested... she's got facets to her character that she doesn't readily present to the player, but are there if you spend the time to look for them. That's what turned me on to her character.

Edit:

Atakuma wrote...

I'm sorry for being so abrasive in my original post. My real issue here is that Isabela is not a strong woman in charge of her sexuality, but someone who sleeps around because she has trust issues due to a lousy parental figure. She's not a bad person, just a cliched character with little in the way of substance.

That's not it at all. She sleeps around because she likes sex. She doesn't get emotionally involved, because she's had emotional damage. These are two completely separate aspects of her, and it's made abundantly clear over the course of the game and her interactions that she doesn't relate sex to emotions like most people. She doesn't sleep with people because she's looking for that emotional support that she's been missing all her life, she sleeps with them because it feels good, and she likes doing it.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 29 août 2011 - 08:09 .

[Apollo Starflare]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I know Isabela was intended to be a strong independent type, but instead she comes across as someone with the emotional maturity of a teenager. She talks about sex constantly and even states that she has very low standards. Not to mention the fact that she is also a liar, a thief and a murderer. I don't feel like bioware deserves any props for creating a crude caricature.

Did you by chance run through the full romance with her? Or max out her friendship level? By act 3, you get a more well-rounded sense of who she is. The sex talk is just part of the veneer. The low standards aren't really low at all.
As for a thief...well, Hawke and company can pilfer a lot of valuables and random loot from the barracks, the Viscount's Keep, and even the Chantry.

Not to mention I found Isabela to be the sort of character who would usually be written as male previously, right down to the 'manizing' (the womanizing rogue type who is so often male).

Good post OP, some interesting points well made and a nice change to the typical posts seen around here.

[jlb524]

Atakuma wrote...

I'm sorry for being so abrasive in my original post. My real issue here is that Isabela is not a strong woman in charge of her sexuality, but someone who sleeps around because she has trust issues due to a lousy parental figure. She's not a bad person, just a cliched character with little in the way of substance.

I was under the impression she had sex b/c...she likes sex.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Her trust issues affect her on a romantic level.

I wouldn't call what she does 'sleeping around' either...implying that she'll sleep with anyone and lacks standards.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

-Spoiler Banter-






Merrill: (Sighs) Why do you even like me? I must seem so dull.
Isabela: What brought this on?
Merrill: Your life has been... so exciting. The adventures, the duels, the passionate love affairs.
Merrill: Compared to that, my life is a stale, dry biscuit. (Sighs) I wish I had your life.
Isabela: No. You don't want my life.
Merrill: Why?
Isabela: Because you have a good heart, and you deserve better.

Made me look at her in a different light.

[TheChris92]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

-Spoiler Banter-






Merrill: (Sighs) Why do you even like me? I must seem so dull.
Isabela: What brought this on?
Merrill: Your life has been... so exciting. The adventures, the duels, the passionate love affairs.
Merrill: Compared to that, my life is a stale, dry biscuit. (Sighs) I wish I had your life.
Isabela: No. You don't want my life.
Merrill: Why?
Isabela: Because you have a good heart, and you deserve better.

Made me look at her in a different light.

 
I thought this particular banter was sweet, and heartwarming. 
Isabela is Isabela, but beneath the surface there is a caring and loving person. Her openminded nature adds to who she is. She's a great character overall.

Modifié par TheChris92, 29 août 2011 - 08:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Masako52 wrote...

[*]Mages vs. Templars is also a social conflict as opposed to a "good vs evil" or "defeat the darkness!" usual fantasy plot. Though I also think the implementation could have been stronger, it's all extremely political and you don't see that often in fantasy games.

[*]

The concept is political, the execution however was laughable and barely political, when compared to other games that handle politics ten times better.

At the end, it turned out to be about a thin veil that turns people nuts, an ancient evil idol, and overblown demons. Which is precisely "defeat the darkness!".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 08:12 .

[filetemo]

Masako52 wrote...

[*]Mages vs. Templars is also a social conflict as opposed to a "good vs evil" or "defeat the darkness!" usual fantasy plot. Though I also think the implementation could have been stronger, it's all extremely political and you don't see that often in fantasy games.

[*]I think the templar vs mages discussion on these boards is so intense because people take sides based on their views on real life.
[*]Think of templars as your local police and of mages as your teenager full of angst who smokes joints and listens to punk. if in real life you are a right winged whealty person with conservative views who is fully integrated in the upper class you'll see mages as a source of chaos who wants to break the establishment who must be put down in the name of order, understanding freedom has to be sacrificed for security and that a policial state is needed to ensure safety of the peaceful citizens.If in real life you are ananarchist antysystem or just angry with the society, you'll have this attitude of "**** the police" and inmediately side with the mages who want change because the society they live is flawed and rotten and want a revolution no matter what the consecuences.
[*]And both types of persons play bioware games.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Anders radical views are not the entire mage communities views.

Some of them were fine the way things were and now the templars are going on a "witch hunt" killing the innocent ones because of it.

[FieryDove]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So too, her relationships with the companions become solid and quite loving. Her affection for Merrill is clear, and by Act 3, you get the sense that she has a lot of respect for Aveline, who, by face-value characteristics, would be someone in opposition to her. Yet, they are close. Those are all tell-tale to character growth.

She always liked Merrill so I don't see that point. Yes, she comes to respect Aveline. It might also have to do with not wanting to be locked up anymore. She isn't stupid.

But I already know that you don't care for her much.

Right, next.

As far as the OP, Varric and Aveline were great. I was really surprised the blank didn't have a fit when a woman in authority challenged him. And if playing a female Hawke...two. lol

Aveline could have been a great romance for those that liked her. She was mid-way between the two female extremes I think. Innocent - Worldly.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

she killed Hayder and his men, along with Velasco, but that was more self-defense than cold-blooded murder.

Exactly. She was being defensive, she is not a cold blooded killer.

[esper]

@Woah filetemo. Now you are generalising a bit too much. I am the farthest for a anarchist you would find. I didn't even go to parties or go anywhere near alchohol, joints or weird hairs cuts. I am not even really unsatisfied with the current system in my country even if it is not my political party that are currently in power. Generally it works. It could be better, but those are all matters which can be solved by the politicans if the right are voted in.
I am a very vocal pro-mage, though. I see the mages robbed of their basic rights. When you have no legal options of securing your rights, you have to revolt - the mages situation is just that bad.

[filetemo]

esper wrote...

@Woah filetemo. Now you are generalising a bit too much.

haha, I just brought up two extreme sides to make my point, but I think the more conservative or the more left-winged some one is, it will influence his/her stance on the templar mage conflict.

I myself, sided with the mages, but only because my sister was in the circle and since I just cared about her and planed to GTFO of kirkwall because I saw both sides were insane, all I wanted was to protect Bethany.

If I was a whealty Kirkwall noble or a lowly peasant, I may have sided with templars. What do I know about their motives? all I know is my neighbors son burned my crops when she was 3 with a fireball. Let all those monsters rot in a prison.I prefer to be opressed by templars than eaten by a demon.At least I am alive.

extreme conservatism and totalitarism comes from fear, fear of change, fear of different things, instinct of conservation.And fear comes from ignorance. What does a farmer know about magic?

[Atakuma]

I think the way DA2 dealt with it's themes was rather hamfisted. They abandoned all subtlety and painted everything with such broad strokes. Nothing really resonated with me because it never seemed like there was anything going on beneath the surface.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

It would be really hard to romance Aveline atleast it would for me.

She was more like a mother to Hawke after you know what happend. The way she would always make sure he/she was trying to make sure they always did the right thing and the way she was always keeping an eye on hawke making sure he/she was okay.

And i agree i love Aveline alot because of the fact she looks out for Hawke and the rest of her companions. Just more as a older sister or a mother rather then a romance.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 29 août 2011 - 08:47 .

[Masako52]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

[*]Mages vs. Templars is also a social conflict as opposed to a "good vs evil" or "defeat the darkness!" usual fantasy plot. Though I also think the implementation could have been stronger, it's all extremely political and you don't see that often in fantasy games.

The concept is political, the execution however was laughable and barely political, when compared to other games that handle politics ten times better.

At the end, it turned out to be about a thin veil that turns people nuts, an ancient evil idol, and overblown demons. Which is precisely "defeat the darkness!".

While I agree that the execution of various DA2 plot points could have been better, I have to disagree. The ancient idol and demons served at best as a catalyst for events that were already put in place. I don't think it's "barely political", it's far more blatant than that. To the point where the ending left me uneasy because it's a lot EASIER to "defeat the darkness" and feel good about your choices as a character, rather than failing at compromising between two sides that aren't evil but aren't innocent either, and neither are giving in. That was a lot more realistic of a conflict. In any warfare or even political issue, people tend to resonate with two extremes and if you want anything accomplished, you have to pick one. The idol subplot was kinda lame, in my opinion, but I think Meredith was already a bit detached from reality and any sympathy she might have had toward the mages.
 

[filetemo]

Atakuma wrote...

I think the way DA2 dealt with it's themes was rather hamfisted. They abandoned all subtlety and painted everything with such broad strokes. Nothing really resonated with me because it never seemed like there was anything going on beneath the surface.

I agree. I sided with templars if Carver was alive, sided with mages if it was Bethany. All selfish motives, I did not care who was right in their claims, mages or templars.

[esper]

filetemo wrote...

esper wrote...

@Woah filetemo. Now you are generalising a bit too much.

haha, I just brought up two extreme sides to make my point, but I think the more conservative or the more left-winged some one is, it will influence his/her stance on the templar mage conflict.

I myself, sided with the mages, but only because my sister was in the circle and since I just cared about her and planed to GTFO of kirkwall because I saw both sides were insane, all I wanted was to protect Bethany.

If I was a whealty Kirkwall noble or a lowly peasant, I may have sided with templars. What do I know about their motives? all I know is my neighbors son burned my crops when she was 3 with a fireball. Let all those monsters rot in a prison.I prefer to be opressed by templars than eaten by a demon.At least I am alive.

extreme conservatism and totalitarism comes from fear, fear of change, fear of different things, instinct of conservation.And fear comes from ignorance. What does a farmer know about magic?

True fear comes from ignorance and people will always fear those who are different which often lead to violent reactions in those who are different and so confirms the fears in the first place - and sorry to take your hyperbole seriously.
In game my Hawke is a mage so the choice is clear cut for her.

[Masako52]

I added Meredith to my original list. She's a female antagonist, which is uncommon enough, but is also completely unsexualized and in a position of military power. Insofar as she basically runs Kirkwall. She's also warrior class and not the stereotypical female mage.

[filetemo]

Masako52 wrote... The ancient idol and demons served at best as a catalyst for events that were already put in place.
[*] 

[*]this I do not agree. The whole point of the game for me was to see if my actions could influence the outcome or at least stop the war.I strongly believe that without the idol they could have reached an agreement, at least with my help, that shows they are reasonable and that I can be useful and influent.
[*]The idol was a deus ex machina to say "DA3 is about a war, and in DA2 we'll tell you how it started, not that you can do anything about it anyway, just watch."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Masako52 wrote... While I agree that the execution of various DA2
plot points could have been better, I have to disagree. The ancient
idol and demons served at best as a catalyst for events that were
already put in place. I don't think it's "barely political", it's far
more blatant than that. To the point where the ending left me uneasy
because it's a lot EASIER to "defeat the darkness" and feel good about
your choices as a character, rather than failing at compromising between
two sides that aren't evil but aren't innocent either, and neither are
giving in. That was a lot more realistic of a conflict. In any warfare
or even political issue, people tend to resonate with two extremes and
if you want anything accomplished, you have to pick one. The idol
subplot was kinda lame, in my opinion, but I think Meredith was already a
bit detached from reality and any sympathy she might have had toward
the mages.

[*]The idol and demons go beyond just a catalyst. Meredith has been corrupted by it for years. And the fact that writers have to use nonhuman elements to move what is supposedely a political plot, shows inability to make an actual real political plot. They have to hamfist it and use idiotic plot devices to get it going. The idol and the overblowing of demons were entirely unnecessary.
[*]Both sides turned out to be lunatic idiots, and I was left completely indifferent to both. They did not show either side to be even remotely reasonable. Meredith refused to give in because of an idiotic idol. 
[*]There is nothing realistic about it. The extremists were never developped. The fact that Resolutionists only show up in a DLC is ming boggling. The fact that the mage resistance and inner-mage differences were never explored is mind boggling. The fact that inner-Chantry dynamics were never explored is mind-boggling. There is no intelligent or even decent exploration of the rise of extremism. They just pop up because of idol and demons. The mage extremists we saw were motivationless and just there for us to kill, while behaving like utter morons. Alrik is a rapist na-zi caricature with no depth...etc etc.
[*]It's laughable, and there is very little political that was shown.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 08:57 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

filetemo wrote...

Masako52 wrote... The ancient idol and demons served at best as a catalyst for events that were already put in place.
[*] 

[*]this I do not agree. The whole point of the game for me was to see if my actions could influence the outcome or at least stop the war.I strongly believe that without the idol they could have reached an agreement, at least with my help, that shows they are reasonable and that I can be useful and influent.
[*]The idol was a deus ex machina to say "DA3 is about a war, and in DA2 we'll tell you how it started, not that you can do anything about it anyway, just watch."

[*]I really did try my best to get the two to work together, but both Orsino and Meredith were already corrupted beyond control. Meredith with the Idol and Orsino with Necromancy from Quentin.