212 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
With clamp downs and a mage resistance we never saw.
The conflict could have errupted without any use of desperate plot devices. They don't even have to be intelligent to write something better than this.

We never saw the clamp down, but heard about it (via Varric) or saw some repurcussions of it (the creation of the mage underground and Anders getting involved with it,

I'm not sure how they could have shown this best...Hawke doesn't have access to what goes on in the Circle.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't know what they were aiming for, but if they were aiming to portray the building up of a conflict, they failed utterly from a political perspective. Unless they were aiming to make a political satire. 

Minus the idol, I think they did a good job.  I think they didn't need the idol at all but felt they needed to re-introduce the thing for some reason (I wonder if it will be important in the future?) 

Even so, I think they should have re-introduced the idol by some other means besides Meredith and let her stand on her own, focusing more on her personal story with her sister.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 août 2011 - 09:40 .

[esper]

jlb524 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...
Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

You don't understand why they did it, then.

Also, you should realize all romantic content can be considered 'pandering' as a minority of players are interested in that content.

Also, I still want someone to explain to me why Zevran and Leliana are 'natural' bisexuals...

Because sweet innocenct Merrill would never go for the other team. Only the character with doubius past play for both - sarcasm by the way.

When they first announced the all bi-thing I was against it because I feared that gender-specific conversation would disappear. My fears was put to shame.

I liked. I am straight and only play female, but I am definitly going to do a Merrillmance sometimes. I am never going to touch Isabella and am still angry that I was cheated out from the story-relevant Morrigan in da:o.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...
We never saw the clamp down, but heard about it (via Varric) or saw some repurcussions of it (the creation of the mage underground and Anders getting involved with it,

I'm not sure how they could have shown this best...Hawke doesn't have access to what goes on in the Circle.

The resistance is not developped in the circle. We never explore the underground.
One line of dialogue and just telling us and not showing at all is not nearly enough for something that crucial.

Hawke should have been able to interact with the resistance on a much more direct level should he / she wish it. The other alternative is interacting with the Chantry and Templars on a closer level. Actually see why the Chantry is completely paralyzed and not doing anything, via microcosms (a mini debate that shows the inner divisions of the Chantry).

Minus the idol, I think they did a good job.  I think they didn't need the idol at all but felt they needed to re-introduce the thing for some reason (I wonder if it will be important in the future?) 

On a political level, they did not. It's not a question of opinion.
You could have found it interesting, not boring and enjoyable. You could have found the story good in general. Those are valid opinions. But on a political level, saying that it was good or decent is inaccurate. I stand by it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 09:46 .

[kingjezza]

jlb524 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...
Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

You don't understand why they did it, then.

Also, you should realize all romantic content can be considered 'pandering' as a minority of players are interested in that content.

Also, I still want someone to explain to me why Zevran and Leliana are 'natural' bisexuals...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

[Masako52]

kingjezza wrote...

Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

As for some of the other stuff, I don't think having a darker skinned girl as a love interest was all that ground breaking personally, she's not even that dark. As for Aveline, pathetic character, yeah great she can use a sword, she can't even ask somebody out on a simple date, when she started sending me on love errands I would have had her head on a stick if I had that option, it wasn't cute, she is a grown woman for christ sake, having the guard captain running around acting like a 14 year old is beyond idiotic.

Actually, studies show that people are more likely to be situationally bisexual (as in, able to fall in love with the right person no matter the gender under the right circumstances) than completely 100% straight or gay. And Fenris, Anders, Isabela and Merrill aren't gay - they're bisexual. At least, they are able to love Hawke regardless of gender. I hate this argument that it's "pandering" - because the mechanics in the bi love system really only exist if you seek it out. And furthermore, it's hardly only gay people that enjoy same-sex romances in Dragon Age. I'm a lesbian but I prefer playing male!Hawke and Fenris. My brother, who is straight, played as a female Warden and romanced Isabela. And I'm also confused why Zevran and Leliana seemed like they would be "bisexual" and Morrigan and Alistair seemed like they wouldn't. Personality has nothing to do with sexual orientation, you know...

To me, this is an issue of player immersion. Frankly, having bisexual love interests doesn't affect players who want to play straight at all, and players who want to play gay have the option to enjoy that. It gives more options to everyone all around. So I just don't get why people complain about it.

As for having a darker skinned girl as a love interest... can I guess that you're white? Because again, it might not seem like a big deal to you - but to people of color who rarely ever see people who look like them in video games it CAN mean a lot to finally see yourself represented. And Isabela was the second darkest skin tone possible in Dragon Age, so yeah, she's pretty relatively dark. The role that non-White people usually have in video games is RARELY any kind of romantic interest at all. Especially not the sexy leading love interest lady.

Your criticism of Aveline too is just... strange. You don't have to like her, but you have to realize that courting someone/having the guts to ask someone out on a date is completely different than having the guts to risk your life to defend people. The former makes you vulnerable, and Aveline also had her position of authority to worry about when usually bosses dating employees is unprofessional and can be grounds for scandel. I mean, yeah, she was a little pathetic, but that made her seem realistic to me - it gave us a side of her that isn't strong and fearless.

And as for the idol thing... no, I don't think it was the sole reason Meredith was crazy, or it was the reason hell eventually broke lose between the Templars and Mages. I think it was obvious there was a lot of tension in Act 1, and it was only an amount of time before things became vicious. The idol/demons just gave it an excuse to happen faster. Maybe compromise could have been reached - maybe - but with the circumstances that Kirkwall was in it would be hard for that to happen.

And omg, I would love a thread to exist on these boards without mentioning TW. This is about Dragon Age, not TW...

[Range Rover]

@Kingjezza

I can totally agree with you on that. Bioware really need to remove relationship options in their games, these people take them waaaay to far.

Modifié par Range Rover, 29 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[whykikyouwhy]

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Is "Pervy Elf" a thing? And is it something synonymous with bisexuality? Maybe I need to get out of my house more.

I really don't think Bioware is pandering or has pandered to anyone, nor do I feel that they failed in any way to create solid gay/bi characters. (I'm a bit at a loss as to what a "proper" gay/bi character should be. Perhaps you could elaborate.) Bioware provided options. You play through the game, you make some selections, you carry on with your story.

I don't see any of the companions as having stamps on their foreheads that declare them bi. Maybe I missed that. Maybe it's a hi-res thing...I don't know. I do know that none of them have made any broad declarations of how they identify themselves. Some talk about previous lovers, others do not. It's up to the player to fill in the gaps.

I also missed where I was able to "screw almost every NPC" - there are 4 LI options, and a brothel. I mean, if screwing everyone was possible, more people would be happy with the Cullen-as-a-romance capability.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 29 août 2011 - 09:52 .

[filetemo]

kingjezza wrote...
I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

To be honest, when DAO hadn't launched yet, I read some previews and I assumed every character was bi, at that moment I was fine with it. That's why I spent many hours trying to bang Morrigan with my female warden, to the point I thought the game had a bug because I couldn't get her to bed.

For me, it's tricky: I'm fine with all characters being bi, unless a same sex character initiates the flirting by hmself. I then see that character as gay and subsequent playthroughs with a different gender character can't get me out of the head the impression that that character is actually gay.
But that's just me I guess

[Mr.House]

kingjezza wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...
Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

You don't understand why they did it, then.

Also, you should realize all romantic content can be considered 'pandering' as a minority of players are interested in that content.

Also, I still want someone to explain to me why Zevran and Leliana are 'natural' bisexuals...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Are you bi/gay? Do you have bi/gay friends? Have you ever met bi/gay people outside the typical streotypes that are made? Do you know that alot of people you pass durting your day are probaly gay or bi? Do you also relise that sexuality in Thedas is viewed diffrent then in our world, yes?

This "natrual" bogus is a very poor complaint.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Masako52 wrote...
And as for the idol thing... no, I don't think it was the sole reason Meredith was crazy, or it was the reason hell eventually broke lose between the Templars and Mages. I think it was obvious there was a lot of tension in Act 1, and it was only an amount of time before things became vicious. The idol/demons just gave it an excuse to happen faster. Maybe compromise could have been reached - maybe - but with the circumstances that Kirkwall was in it would be hard for that to happen.

An excuse to make it simpler, because building up an actual conflict intelligently or even decently actually requires effort. That, or they expect players not to grasp it, which would fit entirely with the mentality of *spoilers* being made a boss fight just for the sake of it.

I know the conflict could have happened without the idol. It just makes using it and all the other desperate plot devices in lieu of exploring the factors and characters that were crucial, that much more inexcusable.

And omg, I would love a thread to exist on these boards without mentioning TW. This is about Dragon Age, not TW...

When politics are mentionned, comparision with the TW is unavoidable. I will continue to use it as an example on how a game does actual politics.

[esper]

kingjezza wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...
Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

You don't understand why they did it, then.

Also, you should realize all romantic content can be considered 'pandering' as a minority of players are interested in that content.

Also, I still want someone to explain to me why Zevran and Leliana are 'natural' bisexuals...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

You can't screw everyone- just four - and honestly I can't see why the the homosexual people should always get stuck with the people who has a 'loose' past.

[Gunderic]

Something being appreciated on a social level would usually be the result of having the creators take a risk ( in presenting a social issue ), and an effort to create a lasting impression on their audience. In this case, BioWare just knows its market.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Wheres your god now?

[Mr.House]

esper wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...
Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

You don't understand why they did it, then.

Also, you should realize all romantic content can be considered 'pandering' as a minority of players are interested in that content.

Also, I still want someone to explain to me why Zevran and Leliana are 'natural' bisexuals...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

You can't screw everyone- just four - and honestly I can't see why the the homosexual people should always get stuck with the people who has a 'loose' past.

Because that's the sterotype and most hetro people think that's natrual.

[Masako52]

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there...

There's no reason they CAN'T all be "bi". Sexual orientation is a scale, you know. Let the gameplay experience determine sexuality. You're trying to put in unnecessary restrictions into the game.

I wouldn't mind if some characters were INCLINED one way or the other - like say, one LI is mostly straight but if you romance him/her just right he/she will be open to same-sex romance. But I'll be severely disappointed if Bioware puts gender restrictions on romance again.

[Mr.House]

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there...

There's no reason they CAN'T all be "bi". Sexual orientation is a scale, you know. Let the gameplay experience determine sexuality. You're trying to put in unnecessary restrictions into the game.

I wouldn't mind if some characters were INCLINED one way or the other - like say, one LI is mostly straight but if you romance him/her just right he/she will be open to same-sex romance. But I'll be severely disappointed if Bioware puts gender restrictions on romance again.

[esper]

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there...

There's no reason they CAN'T all be "bi". Sexual orientation is a scale, you know. Let the gameplay experience determine sexuality. You're trying to put in unnecessary restrictions into the game.

I wouldn't mind if some characters were INCLINED one way or the other - like say, one LI is mostly straight but if you romance him/her just right he/she will be open to same-sex romance. But I'll be severely disappointed if Bioware puts gender restrictions on romance again.

This! They blew it wide open with da2, I expect the same trend from now on.

[Mr.House]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

When politics are mentionned, comparision with the TW is unavoidable. I will continue to use it as an example on how a game does actual politics.

Pretty much this. The poltics in DA2 where not handled that great, so comparing it to a game that does it well is not a problem, simply deal with it people.

[Mr.House]

esper wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there...

There's no reason they CAN'T all be "bi". Sexual orientation is a scale, you know. Let the gameplay experience determine sexuality. You're trying to put in unnecessary restrictions into the game.

I wouldn't mind if some characters were INCLINED one way or the other - like say, one LI is mostly straight but if you romance him/her just right he/she will be open to same-sex romance. But I'll be severely disappointed if Bioware puts gender restrictions on romance again.

This! They blew it wide open with da2, I expect the same trend from now on.

Can we have threesoms again?

[filetemo]

esper wrote...

and honestly I can't see why the the homosexual people should always get stuck with the people who has a 'loose' past.

maybe because for the writers is easier to write a character that lets you know he or she will screw everything that breathes. That makes easier for people wo do not enter the forums or do not follow the game reviews (the vast majority) that the game allows you for a same sex romance option with that character.

Gay people has prejudices too. Many of them will not assume at first sight that your chivalrous two handed knight in shiny armor can actually be romanced in a videogame by your male PC if you do not get hints about it.

If they purchase DA3 without knowing much about bioware's past games they will not know there's romances, much less s/s romances

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Yeah being straight should not even be considered in this game it makes no sense. /Sarcasm

Why is it so difficult to cope with the concept that not everyone goes both ways?

[filetemo]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...



Wheres your god now?

This solves the problem of unique appearance for companions. Everybody is naked now.
I don't even want to know what the "DLC item packs" would consist of.

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there..

But saying that all men have no problem acting like Isabela is acceptable... 

[kingjezza]

Masako52 wrote.

Snip...

Ok I'm going to take back the pandering stance I had, even discussing it here makes me think it's down to sheer laziness rather than pandering to the gay community, why create proper gay/bi characters when everybody can just be made bi, I don't want it to sound like I'm against the inclusion of gay characters in games, I'm not, I just want it to feel natual, the whole everybody being bi in DA2 feels totally out of place to me.


Different strokes for different folks I guess when it comes to liking characters etc, I absolutely loathed Aveline, horrible character. Yeah I'm white but I'm not sure why that matters, I'm kind of used to living in a World where the colour of somebodys skin has little importance, it really doesn't seem like some huge taboo, if others want to attach some sort of importance to it then fair play, more power to them.

As for the Witcher, it gets mentioned because it highlights how a game can handle race/political issues, it puts DA2 to utter shame in all honesty.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Romance novels that are readable ingame like a codex.