212 réponses à ce sujet

[element eater]

interesting points op although i agree with others Mage vs Templar conflict was very undeveloped dao really did it a lot better in almost every respect.

One point i take issue with is the female antagonist Bioware have featured a number of female antagonists in there games so i don't really think Meredith is all that special tbh and the fact the game falls back on her going mad to justify her position in the plot is really week. Maybe its just me but if i see some one like that i almost feel guilty I kind of just feel like im killing a sick person rather then an enemy.

also isabella is good in that she's an empowered women but really she just comes across as vulgar imo that detracts alot from her being empowered it almost seems like she has to flaunt her sexuality in order to get attention or be recognised rather then really gaining recognition through her actions

Modifié par element eater, 29 août 2011 - 10:05 .

[Masako52]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah being straight should not even be considered in this game it makes no sense. /Sarcasm

Why is it so difficult to cope with the concept that not everyone goes both ways?

lol because DA3 is totally going to eliminate straight romances. How is this even an argument? There are 4 straight romances in DA2. Did anyone say that straight romance should be eliminated?

Not everyone may go both ways - but a lot of people are capable of it. And Anders, Fenris, Isabela and Merrill are.

I love when straight people turn bi romances into an attack on their heterosexuality. Yes, poor straight people, so underrepresented in video games... OH WAIT.

[esper]

filetemo wrote...

esper wrote...

and honestly I can't see why the the homosexual people should always get stuck with the people who has a 'loose' past.

maybe because for the writers is easier to write a character that lets you know he or she will screw everything that breathes. That makes easier for people wo do not enter the forums or do not follow the game reviews (the vast majority) that the game allows you for a same sex romance option with that character.

Gay people has prejudices too. Many of them will not assume at first sight that your chivalrous two handed knight in shiny armor can actually be romanced in a videogame by your male PC if you do not get hints about it.

If they purchase DA3 without knowing much about bioware's past games they will not know there's romances, much less s/s romances

So what? The option is there, and it is hinted and the little heart icons too. You can find it  in game if you try - easily.

And none says that you can't be straight. My canon Hawke is straight and would never even think about a woman in a romantic way. I don't think her LI ever told her that he goes both way so the thought has never crossed her mind, and if she found out she would properly just shrug as most in Thedas seems to do. 

[Atakuma]

ninja'd again

Modifié par Atakuma, 29 août 2011 - 10:05 .

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

As for some of the other stuff, I don't think having a darker skinned girl as a love interest was all that ground breaking personally, she's not even that dark. As for Aveline, pathetic character, yeah great she can use a sword, she can't even ask somebody out on a simple date, when she started sending me on love errands I would have had her head on a stick if I had that option, it wasn't cute, she is a grown woman for christ sake, having the guard captain running around acting like a 14 year old is beyond idiotic.

Actually, studies show that people are more likely to be situationally bisexual (as in, able to fall in love with the right person no matter the gender under the right circumstances) than completely 100% straight or gay. And Fenris, Anders, Isabela and Merrill aren't gay - they're bisexual. At least, they are able to love Hawke regardless of gender. I hate this argument that it's "pandering" - because the mechanics in the bi love system really only exist if you seek it out. And furthermore, it's hardly only gay people that enjoy same-sex romances in Dragon Age. I'm a lesbian but I prefer playing male!Hawke and Fenris. My brother, who is straight, played as a female Warden and romanced Isabela. And I'm also confused why Zevran and Leliana seemed like they would be "bisexual" and Morrigan and Alistair seemed like they wouldn't. Personality has nothing to do with sexual orientation, you know...

To me, this is an issue of player immersion. Frankly, having bisexual love interests doesn't affect players who want to play straight at all, and players who want to play gay have the option to enjoy that. It gives more options to everyone all around. So I just don't get why people complain about it.

As for having a darker skinned girl as a love interest... can I guess that you're white? Because again, it might not seem like a big deal to you - but to people of color who rarely ever see people who look like them in video games it CAN mean a lot to finally see yourself represented. And Isabela was the second darkest skin tone possible in Dragon Age, so yeah, she's pretty relatively dark. The role that non-White people usually have in video games is RARELY any kind of romantic interest at all. Especially not the sexy leading love interest lady.

Your criticism of Aveline too is just... strange. You don't have to like her, but you have to realize that courting someone/having the guts to ask someone out on a date is completely different than having the guts to risk your life to defend people. The former makes you vulnerable, and Aveline also had her position of authority to worry about when usually bosses dating employees is unprofessional and can be grounds for scandel. I mean, yeah, she was a little pathetic, but that made her seem realistic to me - it gave us a side of her that isn't strong and fearless.

And as for the idol thing... no, I don't think it was the sole reason Meredith was crazy, or it was the reason hell eventually broke lose between the Templars and Mages. I think it was obvious there was a lot of tension in Act 1, and it was only an amount of time before things became vicious. The idol/demons just gave it an excuse to happen faster. Maybe compromise could have been reached - maybe - but with the circumstances that Kirkwall was in it would be hard for that to happen.

And omg, I would love a thread to exist on these boards without mentioning TW. This is about Dragon Age, not TW...

Isabela is white. She looks like a dark-skinned Caucasian woman by all accounts.

Modifié par Gunderic, 29 août 2011 - 10:06 .

[kingjezza]

Masako52 wrote

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there...

Nope I'm saying I would expect pervy elves and cloistered sisters to be good candiates for bisexualness, not bisexuals being good candiates to be pervy elves or cloistered sisters, there's a difference.

Modifié par kingjezza, 29 août 2011 - 10:12 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah being straight should not even be considered in this game it makes no sense. /Sarcasm

Why is it so difficult to cope with the concept that not everyone goes both ways?

The thing is, the romance options in the game are open to however you want to play them. If you want Hawke to have a heterosexual romance, you flirt with the designated opposite sex LI of your choice. If you want Hawke to have a homosexual romance, you flirt with the designated s/s LI of you choice. It's not so much that there is any difficulty in understanding that there are straight people in the world (Maker help them). What becomes an issue is when having options in a game is seen as pandering.

For me, playing Hawke, I don't make assumptions about how the characters identify themselves. As the player, I know who the available LIs are but that didn't stop me from having Hawke flirt with Aveline. But as Hawke, I just followed my little gamer's heart - and romanced the character that I thought was most appealing.

While I can see how it would be nice to have strictly straight or strictly gay or strictly bi characters, that does restrict things. So too, Bioware could have implemented rejection dialogue from the companions (instead, they gave Hawke some "no thanks" dialogue). So while some improvements or enhancements could be made to the overall romance engine, for lack of a better word, I just see it as inclusive. I can play Hawke however I want to.

[filetemo]

maybe is a fixation for those type of characters by the writers. David Gaider was questioned a few months ago about why all bi/gay males in DA are rogues with loose pasts.The forumites assumed bi characters are rogues because of the common conception that bi/gay characters are weaklings and not capable of fighting face to face so they have to sneak, and accused Gaider of falling into this stereotype.

Gaider claimed it was just a coincidence.

[Masako52]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there..

But saying that all men have no problem acting like Isabela is acceptable... 

I didn't say that, if you're referring to my original post. I said that often times IF a man is sexually open, he isn't called a sl*t and shamed for being a bad person like women are - and on the case of these forums, I always hear Isabela called a dirty sl*t and I think that's a double standard. Sure, occasionally men are reprimanded if they sleep around, but Isabela's lifestyle is just more often criticized when a woman does it, whereas when men do it they're awesome or called "ladies' man".

The sexually independent woman still faces a lot more crap in the real world than the man does. I'm not trying to bring feminist issues into this board, but it's just something to think about. Same with Aveline being "manly" - why is she a "man" because she's a warrior and not sexualized? Why can't a woman be a guard captain without flaunting her boobs? It's double standard.

But you're misreading if you think I said anything about "all men".

[Eudaemonium]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Yeah being straight should not even be considered in this game it makes no sense. /Sarcasm

Why is it so difficult to cope with the concept that not everyone goes both ways?

Why is it so difficult to cope with the concept that four people who are romancible in DA2 do?

[BroBear Berbil]

Breaking gender/race stereotypes in regards to character class still didn't make most of the characters interesting to me in the slightest. Talking to the companions in DA2 was like listening to their character summary over and over again. I get it, Fenris, you're angry at mages; tell me about it again in 3 years.

None of the romance options are very complex either. You just tell them what they want to hear and empathize with their constant whining (nobody can complain about Alistair after Anders or Fenris) and in a few years you'll finally score. The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

The bi-sexual LIs is certainly a statement but I'm not sure it's really a good one or as "progressive" as it's supporters believe it to be. If a bisexual LI in DA:O didn't feel canon I'd say that it's probably the player's hangup and not the game's. Leliana was apparently so important in the world of Thedas that not even decapitation could stop her. As for everyone just happening to be bisexual or having separate backgrounds to suit the player's choices it just leaves me feeling like the LIs are watered down and lack a real personage compared to the non-LI companions.

I understand of course why BioWare chose to go this route in DA2 and now ME3 I guess. It's simply safer for them. Yes, safer. Safer in the sense that they can kind of get behind a piece of social commentary they want to do but not get more complaints from the people they're appealing to.

They could make exclusively gay and lesbian characters and I really don't think it would be a huge deal for the vast majority of straight players so long as you can tell them "no" without the character hating you for it. The problem I see would be that said character would then not appeal to everybody's tastes anyway. BioWare games are becoming more defined by the optional romances than the stories these days so it makes sense to cater to everyone on that front.

Modifié par OnionXI, 29 août 2011 - 10:13 .

[Masako52]

Gunderic wrote...

Isabela is white. She looks like a dark-skinned Caucasian woman by all accounts.

No she's not... lol. A dev even confirmed it on these boards months and months ago - Isabela has the second darkest skin tone, and was NEVER supposed to be white.

How do you have a dark skinned Caucasian? Caucasians are by definition light-skinned, unless you mean she's tanned. Which she's not. She's ethnically dark.

[Sunnie]

filetemo wrote...

snip

This solves the problem of unique appearance for companions. Everybody is naked now.
I don't even want to know what the "DLC item packs" would consist of.

I'd love to see those DLC packs! /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/80463.gif

Oh, and one other thing.. females don't "bang" other females. /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/43384.gif

[filetemo]

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

[esper]

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Isabela is white. She looks like a dark-skinned Caucasian woman by all accounts.

No she's not... lol. A dev even confirmed it on these boards months and months ago - Isabela has the second darkest skin tone, and was NEVER supposed to be white.

How do you have a dark skinned Caucasian? Caucasians are by definition light-skinned, unless you mean she's tanned. Which she's not. She's ethnically dark.

I think my grandma was a darkskinned Caucasian... Isabella is not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Masako52 wrote...
How do you have a dark skinned Caucasian? Caucasians are by definition light-skinned, unless you mean she's tanned. Which she's not. She's ethnically dark.

No, caucasian is a phenotypic grouping that goes beyond just skin color (has to do with the skull and facial structure amongst other things). Some caucasians, in the Middle East, North Africa and Southern Europe are naturally dark skinned, but are still caucasians.

Isabela is certainly not "black", if you are referring to this classification.

[whykikyouwhy]

filetemo wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

As a side note, I don't know that the people (IRL and in-game) who seem to be "well-adjusted individuals" are really all that well-adjusted. That's a matter of perspective.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Rivain

Possible inspirations include Sicily, Greece, and Lebanon.

[esper]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

filetemo wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

As a side note, I don't know that the people (IRL and in-game) who seem to be "well-adjusted individuals" are really all that well-adjusted. That's a matter of perspective.

Also our protagonist can't really be called well adjusted with all the stuff they need to deal with, so it would actually be unfair to the well adjusted Li's to deal with the player character.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Well adjusted individuals do not take up adventuring as a profession.

Well, maybe. Seems like they would be more likely to take up a real trade.

[Sith Grey Warden]

nm:ph34r:

Modifié par Sith Grey Warden, 29 août 2011 - 10:22 .

[Willybot]

esper wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

filetemo wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

As a side note, I don't know that the people (IRL and in-game) who seem to be "well-adjusted individuals" are really all that well-adjusted. That's a matter of perspective.

Also our protagonist can't really be called well adjusted with all the stuff they need to deal with, so it would actually be unfair to the well adjusted Li's to deal with the player character.

Everyone in and around Kirkwall are utterly mad to some degree. Well, except Varric....but since he's the Unreliable Narrator, I imagine he left his own foibles out.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Willybot wrote...

esper wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

filetemo wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

As a side note, I don't know that the people (IRL and in-game) who seem to be "well-adjusted individuals" are really all that well-adjusted. That's a matter of perspective.

Also our protagonist can't really be called well adjusted with all the stuff they need to deal with, so it would actually be unfair to the well adjusted Li's to deal with the player character.

Everyone in and around Kirkwall are utterly mad to some degree. Well, except Varric....but since he's the Unreliable Narrator, I imagine he left his own foibles out.

Varric is pretty well adjusted. He is probably the most normal out of everyone but hes also not possible to romance.

[Gunderic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
How do you have a dark skinned Caucasian? Caucasians are by definition light-skinned, unless you mean she's tanned. Which she's not. She's ethnically dark.

No, caucasian is a phenotypic grouping that goes beyond just skin color (has to do with the skull and facial structure amongst other things). Some caucasians, in the Middle East, North Africa and Southern Europe are naturally dark skinned, but are still caucasians.

Isabela is certainly not "black", if you are referring to this classification.

I think she also had reddish hair in Origins, if I remember right.

[Mr.House]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Most of the other stuff I guess comes down to personal choice, personally I thought the every character being Bi thingy was rubbish, I'm all for Gay characters in games, when it feels natural for a gay person to be there, not just for the sake of it and pandering reasons. I think Origins did a fairly decent job of it, at least it felt natural that Zevran and Leliana batted for both teams, just like it made sense that the rest of them didn't, the majority of people aren't gay/bi, who would of thought.

As for some of the other stuff, I don't think having a darker skinned girl as a love interest was all that ground breaking personally, she's not even that dark. As for Aveline, pathetic character, yeah great she can use a sword, she can't even ask somebody out on a simple date, when she started sending me on love errands I would have had her head on a stick if I had that option, it wasn't cute, she is a grown woman for christ sake, having the guard captain running around acting like a 14 year old is beyond idiotic.

Actually, studies show that people are more likely to be situationally bisexual (as in, able to fall in love with the right person no matter the gender under the right circumstances) than completely 100% straight or gay. And Fenris, Anders, Isabela and Merrill aren't gay - they're bisexual. At least, they are able to love Hawke regardless of gender. I hate this argument that it's "pandering" - because the mechanics in the bi love system really only exist if you seek it out. And furthermore, it's hardly only gay people that enjoy same-sex romances in Dragon Age. I'm a lesbian but I prefer playing male!Hawke and Fenris. My brother, who is straight, played as a female Warden and romanced Isabela. And I'm also confused why Zevran and Leliana seemed like they would be "bisexual" and Morrigan and Alistair seemed like they wouldn't. Personality has nothing to do with sexual orientation, you know...

To me, this is an issue of player immersion. Frankly, having bisexual love interests doesn't affect players who want to play straight at all, and players who want to play gay have the option to enjoy that. It gives more options to everyone all around. So I just don't get why people complain about it.

As for having a darker skinned girl as a love interest... can I guess that you're white? Because again, it might not seem like a big deal to you - but to people of color who rarely ever see people who look like them in video games it CAN mean a lot to finally see yourself represented. And Isabela was the second darkest skin tone possible in Dragon Age, so yeah, she's pretty relatively dark. The role that non-White people usually have in video games is RARELY any kind of romantic interest at all. Especially not the sexy leading love interest lady.

Your criticism of Aveline too is just... strange. You don't have to like her, but you have to realize that courting someone/having the guts to ask someone out on a date is completely different than having the guts to risk your life to defend people. The former makes you vulnerable, and Aveline also had her position of authority to worry about when usually bosses dating employees is unprofessional and can be grounds for scandel. I mean, yeah, she was a little pathetic, but that made her seem realistic to me - it gave us a side of her that isn't strong and fearless.

And as for the idol thing... no, I don't think it was the sole reason Meredith was crazy, or it was the reason hell eventually broke lose between the Templars and Mages. I think it was obvious there was a lot of tension in Act 1, and it was only an amount of time before things became vicious. The idol/demons just gave it an excuse to happen faster. Maybe compromise could have been reached - maybe - but with the circumstances that Kirkwall was in it would be hard for that to happen.

And omg, I would love a thread to exist on these boards without mentioning TW. This is about Dragon Age, not TW...

Isabela is white. She looks like a dark-skinned Caucasian woman by all accounts.

Yup, she's white all right.